Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Mortis Contemptor and dreads are your best friends for anti air.

DAaddict wrote:
So it is not awesome against flyers.

It's not just "not awesome", it's completely worthless. That gives you an average of two hits, and then 0.666 glances or better against AV 12 (the flyers you care about). IOW, if you spend the entire game shooting at a Vendetta you might kill it. This is barely better than having nothing at all, so you're better off just ignoring aircraft entirely and not spending ANY points on AA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DAaddict wrote:
This means he wants to have some response to aircraft but he doesn't necessarily have to have air dominance just the ability to respond to airpower.

The 3x ML squads aren't a response to airpower at all. They have no realistic chance of bringing down a flyer before it does its job, and the player with the flyer will just ignore them entirely. All they give is an illusion of a response (since you're rolling dice against the flyer), but in reality they have less of an impact on a Vendetta than a lasgun.

<Sigh> A vendetta - underpriced and over armored- is the best flyer in the game.

For about the 4th time from me and the umpteenth time from others, he does not want to WASTE points on guardsmen. So admittedly he will not have the best flyer in the game. So his anti-air is going to be limited.

As he WANTS to stay pure Dark Angel, he is really limited to Flak Missiles or an ADL with Quad or Icarus or a Nephilim or a rifleman dread.

So he has choices, again admittedly not the best, but he has choices.

Now he has not shared his list but lets say he wants Deathwing and a Ravenwing squad and he want them both to be troops.
So he has a choice, spend 230 for Azrael or 390 for Sammael and Belial. Lets assume he wants options so he goes for Azrael.

Azrael 230
10-man Deathwing w 2 assault Cannons and 2 chainfists 490
Full Ravenwing (6 bikes, attack bike and typhoon) 321

He now has his minimum of 2 troops and Azrael for 1041.
Now let's say he wants to use the banner of devestation so around 200 points. Now lets say he wants to gain some benefits from his banner so he takes 3 tactical squads each with a plasma gun and flakk missile. 540 points.

So he has spent almost 1600 points and has some response for air. Now perhaps he might be worried about protecting his troops so he invests in 4 razorbacks with mere heavy bolters. He has now spend 1800 points. Hmm maybe shave a few points and field an ADL or Riflemen Dread or strip one tactical squad for the Imperial guard option.

He is playing Dark Angels which has a lot of nice options but all of them are costly. So while 250 might be the ultimate anti-air response, it forces him to drop something else. Anti-personnel, anti-tank or anti-flyer or anti-hoard. He can't have everything and he choses to minimize his anti-air response.

Truthfully a vendetta is not his worry. It is more likely the helldrakes that can decimate his MEQ.
'

I was making a point about balance. The gentleman emphasized that TL LC were fabulous anti air. In the context of other Codexes, that is simply not true.

Also, it is not true that within the DA Codex that the Nephilim is the best anti-air unit in the Codex.

A Nephilim posed against AV11 would produce:
Glancing Hits: 0.815
Penetration Hits: 0.815
Hull Points: -2.44

Per: http://www.heresy-online.net/combatcalculator/shooting_vehicles.php?1=Attacker%20Group%201;1;1;4;9;2;;;;;;;1;;;;;;;;;;&2=Attacker%20Group%202;1;2;4;6;4;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;&3=Attacker%20Group%203;1;3;4;5;4;;;;;;;1;;;;;;;;;;&d=Defender%20Group;1;11;;;;&v=0

By contrast,

A similarly costed (scoring) 5 man unit of Tactical Marines plus Missile Launcher Plus Flak Missiles situated in an Aegis Defense Line with Quadgun,

Glancing Hits: 0.704
Penetration Hits: 1.407
Hull Points: -3.518

Per: http://www.heresy-online.net/combatcalculator/shooting_vehicles.php?1=Attacker%20Group%201;1;4;4;7;4;;;;;;;1;;;;;;;;;;&2=Attacker%20Group%202;1;1;4;7;4;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;&d=Defender%20Group;1;11;;;;&v=0

DAaddict wrote:
For about the 4th time from me and the umpteenth time from others, he does not want to WASTE points on guardsmen.

It isn't a waste of points. Spending 250 points to get a Vendetta and never even bothering to unpack the infantry is a far, far better use of 250 points than anything in the DA codex.

So he has choices, again admittedly not the best, but he has choices.

That's like saying you have a choice between being tortured to death or being shot in the head.

He is playing Dark Angels which has a lot of nice options but all of them are costly. So while 250 might be the ultimate anti-air response, it forces him to drop something else. Anti-personnel, anti-tank or anti-flyer or anti-hoard. He can't have everything and he choses to minimize his anti-air response.

No, the answer here is to remove the AA entirely. 180 points on a Nephilim is almost as expensive as the Vendetta and much less effective, so it's just throwing away points. The flakk missile squad is expensive and not even a viable threat at all, so it is also just throwing away points. These lesser options aren't capable of being a legitimate counter, so they are worse than having no counter at all (since those worthless options take away from the rest of your list). It's perfectly fine to look at the reality of the situation and decide to just ignore flyers and focus on winning the ground game.

However, if you're going to spend points on AA (other than maybe an aegis line) at all the Vendetta is the only option.

Truthfully a vendetta is not his worry. It is more likely the helldrakes that can decimate his MEQ.

Which is also AV 12. The point is that all of the major flyer threats are AV 12, so a token few STR 7 missiles are worse than worthless as a response.

Alright "Stelek." He and I are obviously morons as only an idiot would field anything but a vendi. How foolish to want to play a Dark Angels army when he has the most awesome Vendetta available to him. We bow before your inestimable wisdom. I am throwing all my armies in the trash and saving up to buy 9 vendettas so I can cheese my way to victory.

DAaddict wrote:
Alright "Stelek." He and I are obviously morons as only an idiot would field anything but a vendi.

Well, if you want to call yourself a moron...

And no, it's not Vendetta or nothing. Other armies have flyers that might not be as good as a 130 point Vendetta but are at least viable options compared to the 250 point Vendetta. The problem is not that the Vendetta is the only choice for any army, it's that the Nephilim is so unbelievably bad that taking no AA at all is a better option than throwing away points on it.

How foolish to want to play a Dark Angels army when he has the most awesome Vendetta available to him.

So a DA army is no longer a DA army because it contains a few IG units?

Also, the OP has not said anything about having to have a pure DA army with no allies. You've just decided for them that allies are not an option.

AA for DA will end up coming down to allied vendetta or mortis contemptor with twin TL Lascannons and CML or an allied vendetta, the allied vendetta being slightly worse at AA but bringing cheap scoring units to a MEQ army.

I recently played at Totalcon, 1850 points. I brought dark angels. Azrael, banner of dev, land raider crusader to protect the banner, one 5man tact squad with flakk ML, aegis defense line, 8man dev squad with 4 flakk ml and the rest on bikes and attack.bikes.

I played against a man that brought 2 land raiders, 3 storm ravens and two vendettas in a squadron. I attached Azrael to the dev squad where he manned the quad gun, gave 4++ saves and the SGT gave one ml BS5. I killed all of his flyers, four of them with the quad gun and flakk ml's. The other with a lucky mm shot. I also killed every helldrake this list has faced in the turn on or turn after it showed up.

I give flakk missiles two thumbs up.