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tgf wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
for things like the Emperor's Champion your army is considered to be a '750 point army'.

This is as made up as it gets. The RAW of the rule is very specific there is not counts as, no wiggle room. Buying an EC only kicks in when your points spent crosses the threshold, it has nothing to do with the max points limit.

Its no more made up than yours. Provide us any page number and rules quote to back up yor position.

I believe they posted the president between army and game early ghaz.

No, I did not ask for a precedent. I asked for a page number and a rules quote.

I agree with the doesnt have to side of this arguement. otherwise, you're basically forcing the BT player to sink 200 points into his HQ+champion, and the gakky castellan only has bp/ccw. Doesnt seem like a very fair thing considering GW took the part out where the EC can fill the mandatory HQ slot. I'm pretty sure that most people would have no problem allowing such. But as it stands, the wording is crystal clear on how it is supposed to be.

If army point total >/= 750, must take EC
If army point total <750, no mandatory EC

1. Are you playing a 750 pt. game? Yes.

2. Is you army 750 pts. or more? No.

One of these is the qualifier for the rule. The other is not.

RAW forces you to take an EC with a 750 pt or more army, meaning you do not have take an EC with a 749pt. or less army.

However slim or wide you feel the distinction in the rules between army and game size is, the fact that it makes this distinction at all defines them as two separate values of which only one is taken into consideration. The army size, not the game size.

 Ghaz wrote:
No, I did not ask for a precedent. I asked for a page number and a rules quote.

Pg 108 of the BRB. "By adding together all the points values of the models you have selected, you can find out the points value of your army."

I think that bottom lines it quite nicely.

To pile on more with DJ, here is the RAW of the EC rule.

"Every Black Templars army of at least 750 points must include
an Emperor's Champion. "

It does not mention game size only army points total. Realize that without the EC Vows don't work, so its not like the person is using a loop hole to enjoy benefits without paying for them. In a 750 point game with a 749point army the EC is optional.

We could also use allies rule to further drive home the point.

1,000 point game. I make an army list that has 749 points of Black Templars and 251 points of another army.

Still not using 750 points of Black Templar, still don't need a mandatory EC.

Or even the other way around if using 350 points of BT allies in a 2000 point game no EC required. EC is not a function of game points total only army points total.

Jirin wrote:
We could also use allies rule to further drive home the point.

1,000 point game. I make an army list that has 749 points of Black Templars and 251 points of another army.

Still not using 750 points of Black Templar, still don't need a mandatory EC.

I wouldn't bring the allies rules into this. If you do it mucks things up a bit. Your army is all the models you are using, so a GK primary detachment and a BT allied detachment are one army. Now we get into the mucky bit where we can't actually define a "Black Templars Army" when we have detachments from different codex. Is a BT army an army enitrely composed of BT, is it one that has a primary detachment of BT, or one that includes any BT. No one knows and we have to guess. Since you need an army of 1500 points or more to have any of them be legal if they are from an allied detachment it is very possible to have less then 750 points of BT in a 1500 point army. In my opinion the EC should only be required if the detachment is 750 points or more and the BT needs an errata to that effect.

But, bottom line, if you only have 1 detachment in your army and your army is less the 750 points no EC is required.

 DJGietzen wrote:


Your army is all the models you are using, so a GK primary detachment and a BT allied detachment are one army.

Citation needed.

There is nothing in the brb that says an army is ONLY one detachment or ONLY the entire army list.
The space wolves FAQ for leaders of the pack, which specifies in a "space wolf army" applies to a primary or secondary detachment of space wolves.

But going off the FAQ for the SW it would seem that army can apply to the allied detachment so following that, if I have 749 points of BT allies I don't need an EC there even if I have 1500 points of orks.

 DJGietzen wrote:

Jirin wrote:
We could also use allies rule to further drive home the point.

1,000 point game. I make an army list that has 749 points of Black Templars and 251 points of another army.

Still not using 750 points of Black Templar, still don't need a mandatory EC.

I wouldn't bring the allies rules into this. If you do it mucks things up a bit. Your army is all the models you are using, so a GK primary detachment and a BT allied detachment are one army. Now we get into the mucky bit where we can't actually define a "Black Templars Army" when we have detachments from different codex. Is a BT army an army enitrely composed of BT, is it one that has a primary detachment of BT, or one that includes any BT. No one knows and we have to guess. Since you need an army of 1500 points or more to have any of them be legal if they are from an allied detachment it is very possible to have less then 750 points of BT in a 1500 point army. In my opinion the EC should only be required if the detachment is 750 points or more and the BT needs an errata to that effect.

But, bottom line, if you only have 1 detachment in your army and your army is less the 750 points no EC is required.

You can't take an EC in an allied BT detachment anyway.

"Q. Can I field more than one Emperor’s Champion? (p31)
A. You can only have one Emperor’s Champion per primary
detatchment chosen from Codex: Black Templars."

I really don't see how there is so much confusion about this.

You agreed to 750 points. He brings a 750 point army. You bring a 730 army (or so). He is okay with that, you are okay with that (you built the list after all). Is your army over 750 points or over? No. You don't need the EC. If you had a full 750, then yes. It's honestly pretty simple...

 washout77 wrote:
I really don't see how there is so much confusion about this.

You agreed to 750 points. He brings a 750 point army. You bring a 730 army (or so). He is okay with that, you are okay with that (you built the list after all). Is your army over 750 points or over? No. You don't need the EC. If you had a full 750, then yes. It's honestly pretty simple...

As you said yourself, you agreed to 750 points, yet you're the not following the rules for a 750 point force.

Is the army more than 750 points? No, then you are following the rules for a 750 pt game.

 grendel083 wrote:

 washout77 wrote:
I really don't see how there is so much confusion about this.

You agreed to 750 points. He brings a 750 point army. You bring a 730 army (or so). He is okay with that, you are okay with that (you built the list after all). Is your army over 750 points or over? No. You don't need the EC. If you had a full 750, then yes. It's honestly pretty simple...

As you said yourself, you agreed to 750 points, yet you're the not following the rules for a 750 point force.

True. We have said multiple times though in this thread that the book says itself that you can be under the points limit (key, it's a limit. So the maximum. That's all the rules there are for points limits. You say we want to play an 1850 game, the only rules there are that your army can't be over by a large amount. I believe in the book they say you might be over by a few points. Nothing in the book EVER says that you HAVE to bring EXACTLY that points level.) since it's really difficult to get precise points levels with certain armies. Especially sub-1000.

I feel a lot of internet tough guy here from everyone. If you played a 750 point game and your opponent was Black Templars (for whatever reason, that's not the point), but he was 10 points under and didn't have his EC because by his codex's rules he doesn't need it, would most of us honestly start the argument or just play the game and move on? This doesn't need an argument.

 grendel083 wrote:

 washout77 wrote:
I really don't see how there is so much confusion about this.

You agreed to 750 points. He brings a 750 point army. You bring a 730 army (or so). He is okay with that, you are okay with that (you built the list after all). Is your army over 750 points or over? No. You don't need the EC. If you had a full 750, then yes. It's honestly pretty simple...

As you said yourself, you agreed to 750 points, yet you're the not following the rules for a 750 point force.

So all those armies that don't hit the 1500 or 1750 points at tournaments and are a few points low are illegal too as they are not using all the points available?
I don't remember seeing a rule that your army had to be the points limit you were playing to.
If my army list is 1747 and the game is 1750 give me a page number to show my army is a 1750 point army please or this debate falls to the side of game=/=army.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 washout77 wrote:
I really don't see how there is so much confusion about this.

You agreed to 750 points. He brings a 750 point army. You bring a 730 army (or so). He is okay with that, you are okay with that (you built the list after all). Is your army over 750 points or over? No. You don't need the EC. If you had a full 750, then yes. It's honestly pretty simple...

As you said yourself, you agreed to 750 points, yet you're the not following the rules for a 750 point force.

So all those armies that don't hit the 1500 or 1750 points at tournaments and are a few points low are illegal too as they are not using all the points available?
I don't remember seeing a rule that your army had to be the points limit you were playing to.
If my army list is 1747 and the game is 1750 give me a page number to show my army is a 1750 point army please or this debate falls to the side of game=/=army.

Can you please point out where I said those forces were illegal?
I didn't.
I said you should follow the rules for the agreed points limit. Spending all the points is entirely up to you.

I made a facetious comment and you've focused on that.

So where is there anything that says a points limit is the army?
You didn't answer the question where is points limit and army points equated.

Can I have a citation that shows that a 740 point list in a 750 point game would be forced to take an EC?

I could play a 4,000,000,000 point game, and only field 560 points.

Would I be required to bring an Emperor's Champion to this fight?

(Yes, yes, I know I will lose horribly) .

yes you could bring 560 and no EC to a 4,000,000,000 point game.