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What i expect and what i have are 2 entirely different matters. The current chaos codex was made in october 2002. A FaQ has been released since. If it were an issue it would have been fixed. Period. You can scream whatever else you'd like but the RAW also clearly backs that up.
its been 3 1/2 years, if it were an issue they'd have dealt with it by now.

p1: GW corrects things that are confusing. Not on your timeline, not mine but thiers.

p2: GW uses FaQs to remedy rules issues, regaurdless of how long they take to come out

p3: a FaQ has been released since the chaos codex has been printed

p4: no mention of daemon icons were made in said FaQ

C: The daemon icon wording works as intended

I gotta say that Thunderkiss makes perfect sense here. As a Chaos player, I have been very hesitant to use the demonic icon trick, but I feel that this thread has done enough to reassure me that it is indeed legal. Now I just have to decide which unit to put in the icon, Bloodletters or Demonettes on steeds. If I go with Bloodletters in an infiltrating chosen unit, am I guaranteed a first turn charge if my opponent deploys at the fron of his zone?

BTW, Thunderkiss, where did you find that avatar?

Darrian

Posted By Lowinor on 03/23/2006 7:02 AM

Posted By Centurian99 on 03/22/2006 10:11 PM
Daemons are definitely available on turn 2, but on turn 1 the question is open to debate.

Please provide an argument for daemons *not* being able to be summoned via the Daemon Icon on the first turn.

The *only* mechanism that stops them from being summoned normally on the first turn is the lack of the Reserves roll, and the Daemon Icon very specifically lets you bypass that.

No. 

P1: A Daemon icon allows a player to summon daemons without rolling. (Daemon Icon rules)

P2: The summoning rules says that daemons start in reserve.

P3: The reserve rules do not state whether units in reserve are available on turn 1.  However, by definition they are available on turn 2, since you begin rolling for reserves on turn 2. 

C: It is impossible to determine whether or not daemons are available on turn 1. 

The current chaos codex was made in october 2002. A FaQ has been released since.

And we've changed editions since, so the FAQ is null. Also, permissive rules set means if it don't say it changes the existing rule, it doesn't.

If I go with Bloodletters in an infiltrating chosen unit, am I guaranteed a first turn charge if my opponent deploys at the fron of his zone?

It depends...

With Bloodletters (or any daemons that move as infantry), you can charge a target that is a maximum of 17" from the icon bearer -- the large blast template is 5" in diameter, so you get a maximum of 5" away from the icon bearer, then a 6" move and a 6" assault. So it's not possible to get the first round charge on any unit you deploy within line of sight of. You can get within 12" without line of sight, but that may make it difficult to get the daemons there. You'll have to put the icon holder around a corner at 12" and snake the template around the corner. Summoning past a strip of area terrain would work as well, but it would have to be pretty thin to be able to get all of your bloodletters on without being in terrain (to avoid penalties for moving through cover).

No.

P1: A Daemon icon allows a player to summon daemons without rolling. (Daemon Icon rules)

P2: The summoning rules says that daemons start in reserve.

P3: The reserve rules do not state whether units in reserve are available on turn 1. However, by definition they are available on turn 2, since you begin rolling for reserves on turn 2.

C: It is impossible to determine whether or not daemons are available on turn 1.

Your conclusion is a non sequitur. "Availability" is not a requirement for summoning daemons with a Daemon Icon. While the rules are permissive, the Daemon Icon grants another form of permission: you may summon them at the start of your turn without rolling. Daemons can't normally become available on the first turn, but you can summon them anyway because that's what the Daemon Icon does. If your claim is that availability is required, then the Daemon Icon doesn't do anything as even on later turns they only become available when you make the roll anyway...

To reiterate:

There is no rule which states that you cannot bring units in reserve in to play on the first turn. The normal process of bringing units in from reserve does not provide the opportunity to do so, but the Daemon Icon does.

P1: The Daemon Icon allows you to summon daemons at the start of your turn without making a reserves roll.
P2: The start of your first turn is the start of your turn.
C: The Daemon Icon allows you to summon daemons at the start of the first turn without making a reserves roll.

P1: The Daemon Icon allows you to summon daemons at the start of your turn without making a reserves roll.
P2: The start of your first turn is the start of your turn.
C: The Daemon Icon allows you to summon daemons at the start of your turn without making a reserves roll.

I agree, there is nothing that would actually contradict this statement directly. In this case the bound daemons are available on the first turn as since the Daemon Icon rule is a specific exception to normal summoning/reserves procedures.

The current chaos codex was made in october 2002. A FaQ has been released since.


And we've changed editions since, so the FAQ is null. Also, permissive rules set means if it don't say it changes the existing rule, it doesn't.

The point is, is if it were a note of consternation among players, it didn't magically start now; it would have been addressed then.

check yer pm's dorian

Whether or not something causes "issues" among players affects GW's FAQing process not at all. And it hasn't caused issues generally yet because most people aren't lame enough to ignore the permissive nature of the rules-set and they remember that, unless it says you can, you can't.

I've made my case.

You have yet to disprove it.

And try to keep the ad hominems down eh? failure to keep coherent points and the fact that you aren't proving your point one iota does not constitute me being "lame".
My choice of playing Iron Warriors does that all on its own.

Here's the thing. I'll agree that the phrase "at the start of the Chaos player's turn" could be construed to allow turn 1 summoning. But the phrase "without rolling" implies that a roll would otherwise be necessary. Without a clear reason to disregard that (and the way that the Summoning rules state that summoning starts happening on turn 2) I can't in good conscience claim to my opponent that the rules definitively allow me to summon off an icon on turn 1. Hence, I won't do it.

I also can't prove that it doesn't allow it. So I won't prevent my opponent from doing so either.

Centurian, if the Summoning rules explicitly state that Summoning starts on turn two, then you should be able to do a nice simple P, P, C argument against summoning on turn 1.

Not quite, Ragnar. It says that you start rolling on turn 2. Nothing whatsoever is said about turn 1.  The rules for the Daemon Icon are unclear as to whether or not it overrides that part of the summoning rules.   

 

Here's the thing. I'll agree that the phrase "at the start of the Chaos player's turn" could be construed to allow turn 1 summoning. But the phrase "without rolling" implies that a roll would otherwise be necessary.

But does it actually imply that a roll would otherwise be necessary? I don't believe that it does. That might just have been left by the designers to clear up confusion, just as they left the "even when DS isn't allowed" bit in the Drop Pod entry. Aren't we basically talking the same sort of logic here? The two clauses are not necessarily linked. Just as Drop Pods don't DS, even though it says you can use them when DSing isn't allowed, Demons can be summoned on turn 1, even though it says you don't need to roll.

If we're going to decide that this whole "without having to roll" phrase implies that you need to be able to roll, then are we not forced to believe that "even when DS isn't allowed" implies that drop pods DS?

I think we've got to let the Demons come out to play.

well said bigchris

Posted By bigchris1313 on 03/29/2006 12:54 AM

Here's the thing. I'll agree that the phrase "at the start of the Chaos player's turn" could be construed to allow turn 1 summoning. But the phrase "without rolling" implies that a roll would otherwise be necessary.

But does it actually imply that a roll would otherwise be necessary? I don't believe that it does.

Ahoj!
And that's the core of the problem - there are those who believe that it does.
And did I see hints of "intent", "GW consitency" and "logic"  somewhere in your post?


Borys