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I think at that point you might as well just have 10 Pink Horrors running around instead of 11-20 ones since you don't benefit from it at all.

There are 2 benefits to having 11+ Pink Horrors - more attacks in CC and generating extra Warp Charges for the 1 power.

That being said it is possible that GW FAQs it so that a unit of 11+ Horrors can take a Warp Charge 2 power.

I used the 20-man units with the herald attached(loci of conjuration) and had relative success with them, but I want to try different loadouts to test out the units capabilities.

or just increase their ML depending on the group size.

Then again overall none of the powers are actually powerful though...

an average S4.5 Blast with no AP is not going to kill much...

an average S7.5 AP2 beam is going to hit around 3 models ish...

the last one is somewhat useful but takes 2 warp charges though...so yeah none of them are actually really good..

 Che-Vito wrote:

You'll fail your Psychic Test 8% of the time, have the attack Denied 17% of the time.
(I won't factor this into my numbers, beyond the forewarning of 25% uselessness against any given unit, without anti-Psychic abilities, etc.)

This isn't quite how math works.

A Ld 10 test will fail 8.33% of the time. You got that right.
A DtW on a non-psychic squad will work 16.67% of the time. Also got that right.
But you don't add together the two percentages to get the failure rate of Witchfire. You add together the Ld failure rate (8.33%) and the DtW success rate against a successful Ld test. The easiest way to think of this is that it's a roll of 3 dice (two for your Test, one for the Dtw). One of the dice must be 6 (1/6), and the other two must be (for Horrors) ten or below. There's 33/36 ways to total 10-, and then multiply that by the DtW. We get 23.6%. Not 25%
Of course, this goes up with an enemy Psyker (5+DtW), to about 39% failure rate.
And a superiour Psyker (4+DtW) makes it about 54% failure rate.

Now, it is sad that my Horrors will fail 23% of the time. But that's just in shooting damage, and it's not counting the Heralds that are with the squad (effectively giving that unit two Psychic tests per phase). There are other tactical advantages to having units on the table, like distracting shooting from your FMC, holding objectives, threatening flanks, etc.

I think the best way to combat this is to have multiple squads of 10 Horrors. Small squads get less D6 hits for FF, but there are more DtW, meaning more chances for the shots to get through, and less dependence on one unlucky throw by the enemy.

Elric Greywolf wrote:
I think the best way to combat this is to have multiple squads of 10 Horrors. Small squads get less D6 hits for FF, but there are more DtW, meaning more chances for the shots to get through, and less dependence on one unlucky throw by the enemy.

I 100% agree with you. I think I'd take 4 units of 10 at 360 points, and have some horrors on hand to benefit from the Portal Glyph.

I still think 11 Pink Horrors are the best since if your opponent doesn't shoot them you'd get an extra D6 shot.

But then would it be worthy of putting the Herald with them or not to get that +1S....

Don't forget however, you still make leadership tests, deny the witch and roll for how any shots then hits then wounds. In a 6 turn game vs eldar, my pinks never got a shot off. 3 11's rolled with 3 dice why eldar was alive 1 deny the witch, and 1 perils after he was dead. 1 round nothing was in range. So that 20 man squad did absolutely nothing except and this is important hold an objective. They won the game for me however but they will not contribute in every game unless you play people with no psychic defense to often. The disc herald is good to speed off the last turn for line breaker or to contest and objective, didn't need to in this case but the option was there. 20 man squad level 2 herald on a disc is all ya need.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

They're not sub-par though, they're good. 90 points for 2D6 heavy bolter shots. 90. Ninety points.

Lets say your opponent shoots the heck out of them, killing 9. How many shots do they get next turn? The same. Their effectiveness doesn't drop down until they're all dead.

They're also scoring.

---

Adding in a herald to make them S6, that means they'll be denying FnP to any T3 critters they may have been shooting at, that's kinda good. If you've got something with enfeeble in the army, they'll be denying FnP to T4 critters too. (there's also the chance that you'll just kill extra things too).

Now, lets say you pay 120pts for your herald (lvl 3 and locus)

For 210 points you get 4D6-5D6 twin linked S6 shots. That number is not small (14-18 with a healthy standard deviation). The herald hits on 3's twin-linked (88%) with each of his shots.

That's enough shots to glance down a AV12 vehicle, or kill an AV10/11 vehicle (including a flier, as you'll get upward of 5-6 hits, against a Doom Scythe, that's a glance and a pen).

Now, at lvl 3 you can also get other utility out of your herald, casting misfortune on an enemy, using precognition and then using prescience on something else... or anything really.

You're opponent gotcha down? Is he blasting away at your unit? No problem, go to ground! That's a 2+ re-rollable save in ruins! Or a 3+ re-roll 1's in any other area terrain.

One match, I had the +1 cover save mysterious objective in a forest. Guess what my horrors did all game? Sat there. One round of shooting and they didn't get shot at anymore, free to unload every turn.

They are good. They are not Daemonettes, Plaguebearers, or Bloodletters, they are meant to be at range and resilient. They succeed.

Also, portal glyph those babies out, summon D6 daemons, for free, that get a whole bunch of extra shots! Yes please!

 Che-Vito wrote:

Elric Greywolf wrote:

 Che-Vito wrote:

You'll fail your Psychic Test 8% of the time, have the attack Denied 17% of the time.
(I won't factor this into my numbers, beyond the forewarning of 25% uselessness against any given unit, without anti-Psychic abilities, etc.)

This isn't quite how math works.

A Ld 10 test will fail 8.33% of the time. You got that right.
A DtW on a non-psychic squad will work 16.67% of the time. Also got that right.
But you don't add together the two percentages to get the failure rate of Witchfire. You add together the Ld failure rate (8.33%) and the DtW success rate against a successful Ld test. The easiest way to think of this is that it's a roll of 3 dice (two for your Test, one for the Dtw). One of the dice must be 6 (1/6), and the other two must be (for Horrors) ten or below. There's 33/36 ways to total 10-, and then multiply that by the DtW. We get 23.6%. Not 25%
Of course, this goes up with an enemy Psyker (5+DtW), to about 39% failure rate.
And a superiour Psyker (4+DtW) makes it about 54% failure rate.

I'm not quite sure why you wasted your time correcting me by 1.4%. I rounded up in both cases (where I should've rounded down once, you rounded down as well. 16.66 rounds to 17, while 23.6 rounds to 24.), generally once you get below a factor of 0.05 in 40k, it doesn't matter.

I actually didn't round in my calculations--I did write those numerals with the understanding that they would be read as repeating decimals, since there isn't a good way to note that in this text box. So "8.33%" should be understood as "8.333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333etc." I rounded the results, but not the calculations. For those interested, those actual numbers were 23.61111111111111111etc%, 38.88888888888888888888888888etc%, and 54.16666666666666666666666666etc%.

And it's important to correct your faulty math because, the more you use it, the faultier it gets. Where would your bad math have put us on the failure rates of a 4+DtW? Who knows, but it would have been significantly different from my calculation. (The word "significant" is used here in the statistical sense.) Also, giving out bad facts hurts anyone who learns from you. What if someone else who also doesn't know statistics reads your calculations and thinks, "Oh, so that's how you do it!" Now they AND you are walking around with incorrect information. It's better to be right than wrong. And the I included showed that I knew it was silly to correct you by 1.6%. But it's still important to get it right. Instead of getting offended that you were wrong (since it is your fault, after all), you should be pleased that you now know how to correctly calculate Psychic test success rates. So go and be pleased.

And now, someone please step in and tell me my math is horribly wrong.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

 Che-Vito wrote:


You rounded your accurate calculation incorrectly from 23.6% to 23.0%, to make the disparity between your number and my 25% seem larger.

Wait, what? No I didn't. I've said 23.6% since the beginning. Look at my first post, as well as your quote of my first post, as well as my quote of my first post (in my second post). 23.6% the whole time. Never said it was 23%, and always said it was 23.6%. And a difference of 1.4% is statistically significant in a value of 25%--which has always been and will be wrong. Your method is still wrong, even if I did quote the wrong percentage (which I did not). Adding 1/6 (~.167) and 3/36 (~.083), like you did, results in a false answer. You have to take another step, a step you neglected.

And I meant someone who is good at math check the numbers.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Elric Greywolf wrote: Now, it is sad that my Horrors will fail 23% of the time.

Ahh, you got me!

 Che-Vito wrote:

I gave a reasonable approximation, that you posted a more accurate version of. Cool.

Sounds good.

I used 12 with a Herald in the last game I played. Very underwhelming. I shot them 4 turns of the game and only one of those turns did they get all 3 powers off. The Herald himself was awesome but I'm going to try find another unit to run him in.

As many have mentioned before, the horrors have way too many hoops to jump through to be effective. Psychic Tests to pass (worse if v'sing nids, eldar, wolves), Deny the witch rolls your opponent needs to fail (worse if your v'sing GK's, Nids, Psychic Hoods, other Daemons), Random number of shots (even after all this you could be pumping out a very small amount of shots depending on your rolls),Rolling to hit (at BS 3 if you don't get prescience off its a struggle), Rolling to wound, then saves (AP 4 won't bust marine armour).

Ontop of that the unit can't overwatch either.

I see Horrors been very up and down. Some people will play them and find them really lethal others will pick them up and find they are not worth fielding. It will come down to the meta you play in, what armies you're likley to face. If you v's Wolves, Nids, GK's, Eldar or even Marines who take Libs often then its not a unit you want to take.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Lord Krungharr wrote:
Why no mention of the other Tzeentchy powers? Flickering Fire is just the default. I'd be more inclined to hope for cool blasty powers, so I could deepstrike a unit of let's say 11 Horrors (for the Warp Charge 2), and then nail vehicles or something with the AP2 or 1 shots. Of course I haven't tried that yet, but this Saturday at a little tournament I'll find out

I think the Warpflame rule will be Erratad to be giving the FNP just til the beginning of the Daemon player's next turn rather than the whole game. Too many people hate it, and I for one have strongly complained to GW via e-mail.

At least the Lord of Change can just roll all Divination, and then smack things down in close combat unlike ever before!

Remember though, even if you generate 2+ Charges the unit is still only Mastery Level 1 and can only cast Warp Charge 1 powers.

Really? Where is this at? You randomly roll for the power, so as long you have the necessary warp charges, I don't think it matters what the power is. Remember, most ML 1 psykers only generate 1 warp charge which would prevent them from using the 2 Warp Charge powers. Pinkies are the exception.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Remember though, even if you generate 2+ Charges the unit is still only Mastery Level 1 and can only cast Warp Charge 1 powers.

Really? Where is this at? You randomly roll for the power, so as long you have the necessary warp charges, I don't think it matters what the power is. Remember, most ML 1 psykers only generate 1 warp charge which would prevent them from using the 2 Warp Charge powers. Pinkies are the exception.

Page 418 (BRB) or 142 (SRB). Right column, very first sentence. "If a Psyker generates a psychic power whose Warp Charge cost is higher than their Mastery Level..." the rule has nothing to do with how many Warp Charges the unit generates, only what their actual Mastery Level is.

 Happyjew wrote:
Page 418 (BRB) or 142 (SRB). Right column, very first sentence. "If a Psyker generates a psychic power whose Warp Charge cost is higher than their Mastery Level..." the rule has nothing to do with how many Warp Charges the unit generates, only what their actual Mastery Level is.

So it does....hmmmm, makes me wonder if that will get FAQed or if it was intentional that they just generated extra warp charges versus increased mastery level. I suppose it keeps the pinkies from being useless when they drop to 10 or fewer models.

Speaking of FAQs, I really wish GW would release the FAQ for CD already. The Acquiescence/Musk Initiative issue has caused a fair number of arguements (even though I offer to roll for it every single time), and I'd really like to get a functional Burning Chariot.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Page 418 (BRB) or 142 (SRB). Right column, very first sentence. "If a Psyker generates a psychic power whose Warp Charge cost is higher than their Mastery Level..." the rule has nothing to do with how many Warp Charges the unit generates, only what their actual Mastery Level is.

So it does....hmmmm, makes me wonder if that will get FAQed or if it was intentional that they just generated extra warp charges versus increased mastery level. I suppose it keeps the pinkies from being useless when they drop to 10 or fewer models.

Speaking of FAQs, I really wish GW would release the FAQ for CD already. The Acquiescence/Musk Initiative issue has caused a fair number of arguements (even though I offer to roll for it every single time), and I'd really like to get a functional Burning Chariot.

I believe it was intentional that they generate extra Warp Charges instead of increasing the Mastery. Most likely since the new Tau codex is supposed to be due shortly, they are going to wait until after it gets released before they update the FAQs again.