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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/29 17:24:52
Subject: GW's "professional" painter's standards dropping?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The most glaring issue i have is the FW new release stuff, specifically the HH marines
QFT. I wouldn't describe the paint schemes as "shocking", but they are definitely 5/6 points on CMON, rather than the 7/8 I would expect. I respect that they are chasing a style closer to that seen in Military Modelling and similar publications, but there have been a few cases of minis that look great in the grey and then rather disappointing in the painted pics, which rather defeats the object.
R.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/29 18:19:06
Subject: GW's "professional" painter's standards dropping?
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
We'll find out soon enough eh.
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Samurai_Eduh wrote: Yodhrin wrote: Kilkrazy wrote:The Deathwing model referenced above shows how the lack of depth in the armour is offset by the large amount of gubbins on the figure, so that a relatively complex piece is achieved with a set of individually simple operations.
However I have always felt that paintwork that looked "too good" was likely to put people off painting their models at all. I am glad that there is a system by which good results can be achieved relatively easily. There are several, of course, and GW want to sell theirs.
Whereas by contrast, I feel that when the company who makes and advertises the miniatures puts no effort into painting them to a high standard, lots of people will just think "meh, they don't bother, why should I? *basecoat+sloppy drybrush*". I learned to paint -and wanted to learn- because GW at the time was awash with creativity. I got White Dwarf or a new Codex and the models inside looked incredible, I went into the stores and the display/demo armies were still of fantastic quality but more achievable; I wasn't intimidated by that, rather I saw the clear progression from the basic stuff I and other newish/game-focused people were churning out up to the masterclass standard stuff done by the studio or seen at GD. And more than that, the store itself was full of knowledgeable staff members and vet players who were happy to sit down with you and walk you through a technique, or show you a cool new trick. I'm still nowhere near that level, but I enjoy the process of learning, and I'm not convinced that the new paint-by-numbers attitude at GW will help people find that enjoyment.
I don't object to their having an easy to use "system" in their paints, I applaud it in fact since it likely will mean a rise in the quality of the general "tabletop-standard" paintjob, what makes it paint-by-numbers is that that's ALL there is. It's not sold as a way to give beginners a step-up, or to help game-focused hobbyists who're less concerned with painting to achieve a better standard without much extra effort, which then leads into more advanced stuff "like the studio guys do", it's just "Buy your Games WorkshopTM OfficialTM Paint SetTM and follow the OfficialTM Colour SchemeTM for your Blood AngelsTM and you too can have an ArmyTM like the AmazingTM Master LevelTM forces painted by the Studio TeamTM!".
There's room to both encourage with easily achievable techniques, and to inspire with difficult high-quality paintjobs, it's not an either-or proposition.
This is really just meant to show how to paint an army easily using thier "system". To be honest, I like the approach. I'd rather have 10 people at the club have your "basecoat+sloppy drybrush" and have the people feel like they accomplished something, than one with an 'eavy Metal paint job that no one feels like they can achieve.
I cover exactly that proposition in the post you're quoting/replying to. To start with, people shouldn't be feeling proud of something they deliberately put no effort into, which is the context of the "basecoat+sloppy drybrush" remark you ignored. Again, it's NOT a binary issue, you can have a paint range that's designed to make it easy for new people without also removing any trace of highly skilled work that people can aspire to. You don't help people improve by telling them they don't have to, you help them improve by providing inspiration, instruction, and constructive critique.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/29 18:19:44
I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
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"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/29 19:43:19
Subject: Re:GW's "professional" painter's standards dropping?
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan
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I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, if they ratchet down their game a little, I have to imagine that it's more consistent with their push to get newer gamers into the HHHobby. And is it so bad to present the models to a standard that the average painter, if they are careful, is more likely to actually achieve? Perhaps they can use this as a push to cut down on the grey legions - here's how to do simple, good looking paintjobs easily, and on WD or our Website*, we show advanced painters how to do really incredible stuff.
On the other hand, Bugman has a point.
NAVARRO wrote:I expect a company that labels itself for collectors, best in the world, ferrari level etc, etc to publish an image consistent with that.
So, there is some merit to both sides.
So far as showing the lightning claws all warped, hey, I'm all for that, since it accurately depicts what you're probably gonna get.
*snicker
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/29 19:44:59
lord_blackfang wrote:Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote:The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/29 20:10:47
Subject: GW's "professional" painter's standards dropping?
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Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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I am glad i read this thread! I haven't bought WD for quite a while and have grabbed a couple of the newer versions to see what they are like and if they bought back anything from the 'good ol days' we like to reminisce about! in regards to the painting a couple of things really slapped me in the face, first was the obvious level or style of painting dropping considerably, it's not bad by any stretch, but when you get used to looking through these premium hobbyist magazines for inspiration and technique you can bring to your own force it's dissapointing to find things going backwards (in my eyes at least)
secondly the 'paint Splatter' atricles on showing you how to paint! Um, really? this is kind of a mixed bag for me, I know they are a company pushing their products they just re tooled and released with the new paints and layers etc. and that's what companies do, but the step by steps are VERY basic and don't match with some of their comments, showing a well painted and blended Nurgle daemon or similar with subtle highlights and multiple washes to blend the intestines into the surround, and then telling you 'how to paint this' is wrong! they're not showing you how to paint this like this! they're showing you a rather dumbed down version or quick scheme, if they tout the article as such, I again have no qualms about it just don't tell the newer hobbyists that your paint wil be this good if you just do this!
I would love to see a easier version of a scheme and then an advanced one on a following page, does anyone remember their face painting tute? one page was a basic job and overleaf was the 'Eavy Metal' version, it was great, you could master the basic and then slowly progress yourself as you went along learning!
and as i'm starting to get ranty here with my dissapointed and tired old mind, Terrain! please bring back beautiful hand made battle fields! and take decent and evocative battle report shots to really push the cinematics of the story! a la Istvaan V White Dwarf!
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Flesh Eaters 4,500 points
" I will constantly have those in my head telling me how lazy and ugly and whorish I am. You sir, are a true friend " - KingCracker
"Nah, I'm just way too lazy to stand up so I keep sitting and paint" - Sigur
"I think the NMM technique with metals is just MNMM. Same sound I make while eating a good pizza" - Whalemusic360 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/29 22:17:25
Subject: GW's "professional" painter's standards dropping?
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Revving Ravenwing Biker
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Kilkrazy wrote:I have always felt that paintwork that looked "too good" was likely to put people off painting their models at all
This is why I can't paint after going on Dakka. It's like stage fright
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/29 23:16:36
Subject: GW's "professional" painter's standards dropping?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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This is more so because of what a low quality product finecast is. I wouldn't expect GW to make their models too bad as that could hinder making little Timmy want to buy it.
Them again GW does a lot of stuff that makes little sense
In any regard they still paint better then me.....
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/29 23:20:19
My Armies:
5,500pts
2,700pts
2,000pts
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/29 23:47:39
Subject: Re:GW's "professional" painter's standards dropping?
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Fixture of Dakka
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I consider it vastly superior to the old way, or at least the old way I remember when they outlined absolutely everything in black.
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"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/30 02:15:29
Subject: GW's "professional" painter's standards dropping?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Deadshot wrote:I think its rather the paint system the compaby is selling. Base, wash, highlight, highlight, drybrush, glaze, texture. To sell more paint I suppose and their saying, "sell by example" to 'Eavy Metal. Recently I have begun to pick up on the highlights in the WDs. I can in older issues when I look for it but with the recent mags I can just see it.
I agree with this and can add that the new paints are not doing them any favors.
In short, the new paint formulas are craptastic.
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At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/30 02:25:44
Subject: GW's "professional" painter's standards dropping?
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[ADMIN]
Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Grot 6 wrote:
I agree with this and can add that the new paints are not doing them any favors.
In short, the new paint formulas are craptastic.
In what ways do you think they fail?
I personally have yet to have any experience other than positive when the paints are used in the 'style' they're advertised for (i.e. base paints for coverage, layer paints for layering, etc).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/30 02:36:23
Subject: Re:GW's "professional" painter's standards dropping?
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Fixture of Dakka
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the base too thick.the paint, inconsistant. I've had issue with the paint caking, and the coverage on the orks I'm painting is taking more effort then the older style paints.
My experience is leading my to run to vallajo and reaper to shore up the issues.
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At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/30 03:37:35
Subject: GW's "professional" painter's standards dropping?
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan
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Well, I haven't tried very many of the new line, but I think Nuln Oil sort of fails at it's intended use, presuming that use is to flow into indented detail and off of raised surfaces to enhance contrast. While Badab Black did an excellent job of doing this without changing the character of your model, I find Nuln Oil tints the entire thing black so significantly it's essentially a totally different thing then a wash.
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lord_blackfang wrote:Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote:The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/30 05:37:02
Subject: Re:GW's "professional" painter's standards dropping?
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Hacking Proxy Mk.1
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Yep, if the heavy metal team is still a thing they are either on an insane schedule and have no time to work well or they have been replaced with new guys.
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Fafnir wrote:Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/30 06:54:04
Subject: GW's "professional" painter's standards dropping?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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That mini is very interesting. Look at the lines on the helmet and compare with those on the shoulder pad. Was it painted by two or more different people?
R.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/30 06:58:59
Subject: GW's "professional" painter's standards dropping?
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Most Glorious Grey Seer
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I'm actually wondering if there is still a Heavy Metal team. If so, I'm not seeing it in the stuff GW puts up on their web site.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/30 07:17:33
Subject: Re:GW's "professional" painter's standards dropping?
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Imperial Agent Provocateur
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Personally think WD should show a ranage of painting styles. The hobby is a diverse one some like to paint and some don't and there is a world of difference between painting a nice looking table top army to play games and a golden deamon entry and WD should reflect that IMO. So while I'm as happy as the next man to look at examples of high art I'm just as interested to look at models/articles that show me how to knock up a nice looking army for gaming in a resonable time. It's all about striking a balance.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/30 13:03:04
Subject: GW's "professional" painter's standards dropping?
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[DCM]
Secret Squirrel
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They said that the Heavy Metal team requested the new Edge Paints, so they still have to exist. GW wouldn't lie about that...
Although if that is true then it does also speak to the "only use GW stuff" direction they have taken. I've often heard that the HM guys frequently use non-GW supplies, so if they are forced to use GW only I could imagine them speaking up and saying "if we have to use our stuff only, then we need to make stuff we can use!"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/30 13:43:59
Subject: GW's "professional" painter's standards dropping?
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Lady of the Lake
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I'm sure they requested all the new GW paints. This is why they're so quiet they're just so busy using them to paint all these new finely detailed models GW keeps releasing.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/30 13:51:47
Subject: GW's "professional" painter's standards dropping?
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[DCM]
Secret Squirrel
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They were in a paint-frenzy induced coma, that is what is keeping them quiet.
It's also the reason the quality has been a bit less than stellar lately. After the time in a coma they are painting as part of their physical therapy to get their fine motor skills back.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/30 13:53:39
Subject: GW's "professional" painter's standards dropping?
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Lady of the Lake
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I heard they were that gifted they're actually still painting while in this comatose state.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/30 14:50:52
Subject: GW's "professional" painter's standards dropping?
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Old Sourpuss
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I like the new paints... >_>
I've had nothing but good experiences with them. One of the models I consider to be the best model I've painted was done with the new paints and an old bottle of blue wash. The new paint line does what's advertised. It gives painters a set formula to achieve solid results. More experienced painters will obviously scoff because the skill level you're at isn't the level the target audience is at.
If this is a purposeful marketing decision to market painted figures in an easily achievable manner then it can (for the most part) be a good thing. The problem is that there are still well.painted models that you look at and go "huh? How do I paint that?" And then we get a disparity that nerdfest was talking about.
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DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+

Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/30 14:52:33
Subject: GW's "professional" painter's standards dropping?
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[DCM]
Secret Squirrel
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I haven't really used any of the new paints, might pick up the white at some point though.
Ever since I picked up my first bottle of Vallejo I just fell in love with dropper bottles.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/30 14:54:24
Subject: GW's "professional" painter's standards dropping?
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Old Sourpuss
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I find myself shifting between dropper and paint pots... my vallejo paints are really inconsistent which is what's putting me off of them...
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DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+

Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/30 15:39:28
Subject: GW's "professional" painter's standards dropping?
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
We'll find out soon enough eh.
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Alfndrate wrote:I find myself shifting between dropper and paint pots... my vallejo paints are really inconsistent which is what's putting me off of them...
Reaper Master Series; invest.
Failing that, have you put agitators in your Vallejo bottles? Those wee lava bead thingies do well enough, and with them in you don't have to shake the pots nearly as long to persuade the paint to act how it's supposed to.
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I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
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"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/30 16:10:55
Subject: GW's "professional" painter's standards dropping?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Ouze wrote:
Well, I haven't tried very many of the new line, but I think Nuln Oil sort of fails at it's intended use, presuming that use is to flow into indented detail and off of raised surfaces to enhance contrast. While Badab Black did an excellent job of doing this without changing the character of your model, I find Nuln Oil tints the entire thing black so significantly it's essentially a totally different thing then a wash.
I have the opposite experience with my Nuln Oil. It's vastly lighter than the previous black washes and won't tint colors even with several coats.
I'm not calling you a liar, I'm suggesting maybe there's some inconsistency in the product.
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"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/30 16:34:46
Subject: Re:GW's "professional" painter's standards dropping?
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Crazed Savage Orc
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One thing to consider is the fact that some stuff is painted for the table/battreps and other stuff to advertise colours and models. Back in the old days the studio armies werent top notch painted but somewhat simple yet good looking on the table. If you go too heavy on blendings and details sometimes it's looking weird on the table when you are a bit away. Besides that, yes there are some really "bad" examples of painted miniatures by the 'eavy metal team. I remember some lotr chars that looked well, terrible. They were meant to to be on the table but someone decided to make closeups for the WD and it was anything but someone I like to see. To the painters defense, the models are actually a pita to paint because of the quality. At least when they got introduced - havent touched a lotr mini since 2 or 3 years.
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Boss, Raglun´z mob ´az redda trouserz dan uz!
Too bad, da mob got stinky about ...
Dakka Gallery |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/30 16:47:01
Subject: GW's "professional" painter's standards dropping?
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan
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DarknessEternal wrote:I have the opposite experience with my Nuln Oil. It's vastly lighter than the previous black washes and won't tint colors even with several coats.
I'm not calling you a liar, I'm suggesting maybe there's some inconsistency in the product.
Fair enough. I got some right after it was released - perhaps they tweaked the recipe and you have a newer one (?), or, as you say, it's inconsistent. If they did indeed change it up, I may try a second bottle. I picked up some AP dark and that works OK for now.
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lord_blackfang wrote:Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote:The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/30 18:04:23
Subject: Re:GW's "professional" painter's standards dropping?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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They've been dropping for a long long time. It isnt something new.
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Hope more old fools come to their senses and start giving you their money instead of those Union Jack Blood suckers... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/30 19:02:07
Subject: Re:GW's "professional" painter's standards dropping?
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Fixture of Dakka
West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA
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I can easily paint a figure to that standard, and I don't consider myself to be anything more than a middle-grade painter, and I also lack a job where that's all I have to focus on all day! The detail on that shoulderpad, especially the white on the emblem and the grey tau markings, is simply gadawful for something that's being used as advertising. There's no other way about it.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/30 19:03:37
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/30 20:27:32
Subject: Re:GW's "professional" painter's standards dropping?
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Fixture of Dakka
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What advertisement?
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"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/30 23:18:12
Subject: GW's "professional" painter's standards dropping?
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Old Sourpuss
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Strange, that image looked a whole lot better on my cell phone earlier today
Perhaps GW has heard of the internet and mobile browsing, and that's what they're hoping to do now with their models. Kind of like how some Golden Daemon painters will paint under harsh convention lights so that their stuff looks proper at the games day
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DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+

Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics |
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