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 Meade wrote:
Well I think most of us agree that there exist plenty of opportunities for 15mm detail/conversion/modelling, but just to make it into a more objective discussion: what is it that makes for conversion/modelling fun, really? For instance in 40k, I find there is more fun with races like Orks, Chaos. Generally these factions have certain things in common...

Spoiler:

1. Fictional... and set in an unlimited (galaxy-scale) universe: this way, no matter what kind of cool conversion you want to do, as long as it fits the general background theme, nobody is going to say that doesn't exist in so and so universe or setting.

2. Variation in production... factions are either extremely variable, or production is haphazard (like orks, post-apocalyptic scavengers) or highly modified by decades of use and re-purposing. Also helps if the fictional universe contains many different worlds that may have different cultures or production methods. In other words, everything did not roll off an assembly line.

3. Ornamental elements... vehicles have a visual element to them rather than being purely war machines. Maybe gargoyles attached, gothic-like ornamentation, or anything meant to demoralize the enemy. This kind of thing might happen in any civilization that exists at a certain tech level for a very long time, so that their tech starts to merge with their culture in general.

-generally all these elements are what I mean by 'space opera'. Focus is very little on technobabble and the consequences of scientific progress and mostly on pseudo-religious, epic, settings/aesthetics and storylines. That is essentially the formula for plastic crack.

Those are all things that can inspire conversions, but what makes conversion fun for me is simply the ability to personalize my miniatures. This has nothing to do with the genre at hand, as I customize fantasy, hard and soft sci-fi, and Post apoc figures.

My stated preference for conversion of 28mm is because the size of the figure and range of minis and parts available mean that there are far more ways to convert 28mm miniatures than 15mm. Sure you can swap a head on a 15mm figure, but with a few exceptions that head is going to have to come off another miniature. Also, weapon swaps, adding small equipment and the like are mostly possible only if you have good sculpting skills. In 28mm plastic kits and metal and resin accessory kits make it possible to make these type of conversions with much more variety, detail and ease.

15mm is a great scale, with some real advantages, but it's definitely not ideal for miniature figure conversion.

As for vehicles, there are surely possibilities, and many companies even offer their vehicles with modular turrets that can be swapped around. I would be curious to see if there are any examples of similarly sized and detailed parts at the same price points via 3d printing.

Eilif wrote:

My stated preference for conversion of 28mm is because the size of the figure and range of minis and parts available mean that there are far more ways to convert 28mm miniatures than 15mm. Sure you can swap a head on a 15mm figure, but with a few exceptions that head is going to have to come off another miniature. Also, weapon swaps, adding small equipment and the like are mostly possible only if you have good sculpting skills. In 28mm plastic kits and metal and resin accessory kits make it possible to make these type of conversions with much more variety, detail and ease.

Yeah, it's definitely a problem right now for the small 15mm infantry figs. multi-part kits don't really exist, and it would be kind of fiddly (I'd still love it, but I'm used to fiddly stuff). But in 15mm, infantry is more about having a lot of dudes on the table than anything else, so maybe that's cool. Most of the fun is in the vehicles and terrain, and powered armor/mechs if you're into that. Personally, I think if they made infantry kits that were modular with heads, weapons and torso that would be perfect. Or snap-fit would work too. But digital design makes all that stuff vastly easier now, than it used to be.

There are also some 15mm sci-fi rulesets (I think Gruntz) that have rules for making your own vehicles and assigning points values to them. How cool is that?

 Meade wrote:
Yeah, it's definitely a problem right now for the small 15mm infantry figs. multi-part kits don't really exist, and it would be kind of fiddly (I'd still love it, but I'm used to fiddly stuff). But in 15mm, infantry is more about having a lot of dudes on the table than anything else, so maybe that's cool. Most of the fun is in the vehicles and terrain, and powered armor/mechs if you're into that. Personally, I think if they made infantry kits that were modular with heads, weapons and torso that would be perfect. Or snap-fit would work too. But digital design makes all that stuff vastly easier now, than it used to be.

I agree. the appeal of smaller scales is mass combat rather than unique miniatures. I love conversion, but when I play 10mm, I have no desire to convert troops and only a small desire to do minor vehicle mods. I don't see that as a problem, just one characteristic of the scale. when I want to convert or scratchbuild, I look to terrain (of any scale) or 28mm figures.

Beyond arms with weapons and possible backpacks, there's really not many multipart 15mm models, and certainly no market for multipart models like GW produces in 28mm.

 Meade wrote:

There are also some 15mm sci-fi rulesets (I think Gruntz) that have rules for making your own vehicles and assigning points values to them. How cool is that?

True, but this is the case for all scales and genres. Rulesets that are "generic" or that include a "unit building mechanic" are my club's preferred rulesets (see my sig for our blog about this). We play Sci-Fi, Fantasy and Post apoc, with rulesets designed for 28mm, 15mm and 6mm figures. Gruntz is one of the more commonly known sets, but others include Song of Blades and Heroes (and the other games by "Ganesha Games") Tomorrow's War, Future War Commander, WarEngine, Mech Attack, Panzer 8 Sci-fi, Waselands Meltdown, and many others.

I like the look of 15mm stuff.

However, I'm in the minority of those who hate conversions.

Laserburn, with purpose made 15mm figures, predated 40K by at six or seven years. In the mid 80s I ran a large exhibition game at the Loughton Strike Force annual show, featuring an Imperial base under attack by a large horde of native aliens -- "Shaztecs" -- who had been provided with grenades to be slung and a small amount of modern weapons by off world rebels. We used 15mm Aztec animal knight models for the aliens, they looked great.

The reason why 40K became so popular was that it was the same rules as the already popular WHFB. GW made it 28mm because that was the scale that Citadel produced. (Except for some boxes of Traveller models in about 1980, which were 15mm.)

Large vehicle battles are essentially impossible in 28mm and not very good in 15mm. The scale distortion needed to get two tanks on the same table, with room to manoeuvre, makes it look stupid when the tank gun's range is reduced to perhaps only 10 times its body length. You can have a few vehicles for support but it you want to play large battles you need to go to 6mm.

15mm is a specialized scale. Most play them for the exact opposite as skirmish or larger scale. They are indeed popular, though. There are around 20 or so companies and rules sets I can think of right off the top of my head. I knowof a couple as well that the guy was a writer/ developer. point in it, he said that he could cast a gak load at a fraction of the cost, and still have time to play.

Even looking, I can easily pop out around 50 or so rules sets and still keep going, not including figs. Second Killcrazy's post. Epic was at one time one of the "Big Three" with Gak W. They only crapped on it because the original writers/ developers split.

I almost completly forgot about Traveler, as well.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Laserburn, with purpose made 15mm figures, predated 40K by at six or seven years. In the mid 80s I ran a large exhibition game at the Loughton Strike Force annual show, featuring an Imperial base under attack by a large horde of native aliens -- "Shaztecs" -- who had been provided with grenades to be slung and a small amount of modern weapons by off world rebels. We used 15mm Aztec animal knight models for the aliens, they looked great.

The reason why 40K became so popular was that it was the same rules as the already popular WHFB. GW made it 28mm because that was the scale that Citadel produced. (Except for some boxes of Traveller models in about 1980, which were 15mm.)

This 15mm Citadel figs were also packaged in bags as units for Striker (I had a nice Mid-Tech force). A couple other companies made fgures and vehicles for Striker as well, and 15mm figs for skirmishing in Traveler games... RAFM has re-released a lot of those citadel figs by the way. Allowed me to replace my mid-tech troopers that had died fo lead rot, may the rest in peace..

Jake

 Kilkrazy wrote:

Large vehicle battles are essentially impossible in 28mm and not very good in 15mm. The scale distortion needed to get two tanks on the same table, with room to manoeuvre, makes it look stupid when the tank gun's range is reduced to perhaps only 10 times its body length. You can have a few vehicles for support but it you want to play large battles you need to go to 6mm.

Realistically, maybe. Also another good reason why wargames should include a lot of terrain, representing the desperate, cityfights or engagements on heavy terrain/fortifications where it's up close and personal. But at some point you just have to acknowledge that it's a game.

This is what I was arguing before about how I can't really get excited about the hard sci-fi, especially Mechs, but as mentioned before in a sci-fi setting you can always claim that changes in technology (stealth, shields, better armor) cut down effective range or whatever. Like for example everyone uses 'laser-guns' or 'heat rays' instead of bullets and their deadly range is short for some reason.


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 Grot 6 wrote:
15mm is a specialized scale. Most play them for the exact opposite as skirmish or larger scale. They are indeed popular, though. There are around 20 or so companies and rules sets I can think of right off the top of my head. I knowof a couple as well that the guy was a writer/ developer. point in it, he said that he could cast a gak load at a fraction of the cost, and still have time to play.

Even looking, I can easily pop out around 50 or so rules sets and still keep going, not including figs. Second Killcrazy's post. Epic was at one time one of the "Big Three" with Gak W. They only crapped on it because the original writers/ developers split..

Very interesting! I realize 15mm has been around forever, mostly just referring to the popularity of 28mm's in comparison and how changes in the wargaming world might change that. Does not surprise me the story with Epic.

Walkers and hard sci-fi is something of a mis-match

Im with ya OP.

I needed to find an alternative to the continuous GW money grab.
Changing the rules of a game to increase the sales of a model is just poor marketing to me.

I switched to the guys from Ambush Alley. They make rules sets that focus on the GAME, not the FIGS. Our group has also recently gotten into FoW as well.
The rules we like are Force on Force for Modern Military action ( preffering the 20mm scale--cuz there are ALOT of model companies out there that make stuff SUPER CHEAP and our MATCHBOX cars scale PERFECTLY!! )

and...

Tommorow Wars. ( At the 15mm scale -- We can use all our old Battletech "clicki" figs and the guys from Khurisan make some SWEET figs ) The rules are pretty much the same, but they have just enough flexability to fight low tech v.s. high tech and still be playable...plus they arent the UGIG type...You go , I go.

I agree , Digital 3D printing is going to open up brand new worlds to us. And 15mm scale is a GREAT choice to get just the right combo of troops and tanks on the field.

FarseerAndyMan wrote:
Im with ya OP.

I needed to find an alternative to the continuous GW money grab.
Changing the rules of a game to increase the sales of a model is just poor marketing to me.

Yeah, changing the rules to sell more models just irks me. Sell models, sell art, books and fluff, that's your IP and I'm cool with that. But rules are an operating system, and it's 2013, we ought to be able to download them at least (in their simplest form). You can't copyright the principles for a ruleset anyway. It's is better off in player's hands than in the hands of the company that makes models. That company should be concerned with making better models, at an affordable rate, and they will sell. The players should be concerned with what's best for them.

That's why I support the 15mm open-source ruleset, for instance I will work off Beamstrike and perhaps modify it a bit to suit my own needs (chances are whoever I play, I'll have to teach them rules and supply the models anyway). It's not that I am just cheap and don't want to pay. God knows, I spent thousands on models. But with rulesets, I want something everyone else will be playing... and is accessible and functional... not something I have to convince someone else to lay down 25 bucks for. And not something made by a model company that will change when they have to sell more models, change the whole game (or god forbid they just drop it and stop supporting), and I'll have to fork out more to get the new rulebook (props to FoW though, I know they replace rulebooks when they update).


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 malfred wrote:
Walkers and hard sci-fi is something of a mis-match

Yeah I guess, the terminology isn't precise. You can certainly have walkers in space opera games. But on the other hand you see it in a lot of battletech-style stuff, in a mini wargame you see them looking all futuristic and utilizing energy weapons/energy shields. I'd classify that as leaning towards hard sci-fi. The heavily gothic, retro look of 40k (and stuff like weird war 2 or now we're seeing weird war 1) is certainly on the other side of the spectrum.. but stuff like Star Wars and Battlestar Galactica will be somewhere in the middle.

I totally agree Meade.

Have you been over to the Ambush Alley website yet?

I'll back you all the way for support on the 15mm range.

As far as rules sets are concerned, are you trying to make a infantry-tank-air support style game?
If so, keep it simple.
Extra rules dont always add to the game. Sometimes they just slow things down.
Im working on some Post-appoc style house rules for our group. Stuff that incorporates vehicles into the game as more than just a way to get from one objective to the other....Just think Car Wars meets Thundar the Barbarian...

PM me and we can troubleshoot for each other and provide feedback. I would love to get the input from some guys who arent my gaming buddies..

FarseerAndyMan wrote:
I totally agree Meade.

Have you been over to the Ambush Alley website yet?

I'll back you all the way for support on the 15mm range.

As far as rules sets are concerned, are you trying to make a infantry-tank-air support style game?
If so, keep it simple.
Extra rules dont always add to the game. Sometimes they just slow things down.
Im working on some Post-appoc style house rules for our group. Stuff that incorporates vehicles into the game as more than just a way to get from one objective to the other....Just think Car Wars meets Thundar the Barbarian...

PM me and we can troubleshoot for each other and provide feedback. I would love to get the input from some guys who arent my gaming buddies..

Yeah dude that would be great! I will definitely keep you informed of anything I accomplish... for now I'm just BSing on the internet For now it's doesn't make sense to PM because more people join in or add their nuggets of wisdom but I would gladly take a look at your rules if you want to send it over.

Yes, I want to make a infantry-tank-air game. It might take awhile but I'm really looking for some rules that are simple but elegant... I don't want it to be like checkers or just rolling dice shooting at each other. But it has to be capable of supporting a large battle, so I really like the 2-5 man FoW style basing.

I'm really interested in rules that showcase tanks, their different weapons and also includes flying tanks or flying ships... as well as mega-tanks. The idea is in this fictional universe there are scraps of metal sort of like "unobtainium" from Pandora that can be used to build flying war machines, leftover from a bygone age, it's rare of course. But anything post-apocalyptic I love, I figure this universe can have a race of mutants that have diverged from humanity, sort of like
Orks, but scarier like Reavers in Firefly.

I really hate the rules for vehicles in 6th ed 40k, but there are certain things I like, compared to FoW. It may be 'historic' but in FoW tanks bail out/bog down way too much.

15mm Space Opera? Yeah, I remember playing Traveller all those years ago....figures were a little basic though.

ski2060 wrote:If you're looking for 15mm rules, check out Gruntz. Entirely customizable, you can use any 15mm miniatures you want.

All army lists are built by you, and you make the rules fit the model.

Very flexible system, and lots of options.

www.gruntz.biz

+1 to this. Gruntz is a great ruleset which serves with avery mini you can fins.

NAVARRO wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
15mm is a specific niche IMHO, it is great for large battles, but doesn't appeal to some miniature/painter/converter gamers.

.

Errrr totally false on both claims! The quality of 15mm is on the rise for some years now and you can find 15mm's that are more detailed than 28mm's... and the skirmish scifi small squad games are todays main trend.

Very true. Armies Army, Critical Mass Games, Ground Zero Games, Khurasan Miniatures, Rebel Minis, Antenociti's Workshop, ArtCrimeProductions Games, Clockwork Goblin Miniatures, Brigade Models... Fantastic stuff out there, lots of it. And Firestorm Invasion from Spartan Games, I agree, it looks awesome!