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 BlkTom wrote:
The only thing you can't outright duplicate is the Bane Wolf because it is a template AND it is poison (chem cannon) so it is AP 3, ignores cover, and wounds on a 2+.

However, it also has zero range. The Bane Wolf is terrible because it's so hard to get good hits with it, even when you do finally get into range it's hard to get the template to cover more than 2-3 models. So yes, you wound on a 2+ with AP 3, but that Hellhound is also wounding on a 2+ and probably getting so many more hits over a full game that it's killing more MEQs even with only AP 4.

 Peregrine wrote:

 BlkTom wrote:
The only thing you can't outright duplicate is the Bane Wolf because it is a template AND it is poison (chem cannon) so it is AP 3, ignores cover, and wounds on a 2+.

However, it also has zero range. The Bane Wolf is terrible because it's so hard to get good hits with it, even when you do finally get into range it's hard to get the template to cover more than 2-3 models. So yes, you wound on a 2+ with AP 3, but that Hellhound is also wounding on a 2+ and probably getting so many more hits over a full game that it's killing more MEQs even with only AP 4.

Oh I agree Peregrine. Personally, I have better things to spend the points on.

Thought I'd post a quick update. Ran a 1850pt game last night against a fairly yet still fluffy competitive thousand suns with tzeench demons ally list. Ran a single hellhound in with the rest of my normal army. (all vehicles AV 12) and it proved quite effective.

Granted it is only one game, yet it burned out cultists hiding on one objective turn 1, then sent most of the game harassing perfectly 2" separated pink horrors on a final objective, and roasted 7 rubric marines (granted only killing 3). All in all it's threat range is quite impressive. Capable of quickly responding (much faster than my chimeras) and most importantly with side armor that allows for much more aggressive movement. (chimeras having sides which can be ground down by even Bolter fire)

All in all it was not overwhelmingly Glorious, like a well place medusa round can be, but much like the trusty griffin, while it doesn't hit that hard, it his reliably every turn and chips away quite nicely at the opponent.

The greatest problem I faced with the hellhound over other options is that the more it kills it's target, the less effective it becomes. Roasting 10 marines is great, but if only two remain it is almost ineffective. So the mobility is key, and I don't foresee using it to finish off units, rather to put the hurt on a new unit each turn then drive on while the vets behind hopefully finish the unit off.

 Castitas wrote:

it burned out cultists hiding on one objective turn 1

I think this is what makes the HH stand out compared to the other options (except the Devil Dog) in the FA slot: it actually gets things done fast. Wiping out a scoring unit on turn 1 is nothing to sniff at. However, it does have the limitation of that, if you're not going first, you're probably not going to get to use it.

All this talk is making me reconsider it from a theoretical perspective. It's a shame it's so useless against the MEQ majority.

minigun762 wrote:assuming you're using Chimera, you often have a large number of AP4 flame templates and S6 firepower.

True, but it's not quite the same.

Firstly, you do have hull heavy flamers as an option on your chimera, but they don't have torrent, and they don't have an extra 12" of range. It's basically the same problem as a banewolf. How often are you getting to use them, and how many hits are you really getting per shot?

As such, the chimera heavy flamers are a defensive weapon. They react to what your opponent does when they bring units in close, but don't have the ability to really take the initiative and get a lot of hits. Meanwhile, the inferno cannon is the opposite. It's an offensive weapon that has a 24" threat range before you even start talking about which way the template points, and, because it IS a torrent weapon, you're going to get a lot more hits.

To say that the hellhound is pointless when you can take hull heavy flamers is like saying that lascannons are pointless when you can take meltaguns. Yes, both weapons do the same thing to the same target types, but they do it in very different ways.

As for the S6 shooting. Against infantry, yeah, there's a lot of overlap, but it's also the difference between that scoring unit going to ground on an objective behind an ADL, and the scoring unit just being killed. You do lose a bit against light vehicles, though. S6 isn't necessarily going to be the best against them anyways.

Fair points Ailaros, especially the melta and lascannon analogy.

Truth be told, I like the HH so I'm glad others are revisiting it.

Against hordes, Torrents are never a bad thing. The only downside of the Banewolf is that it doesn't have Torrent. If it did, I reckon it would see a lot more use.

Well, and that's the problem, really. There are two vehicles here, but they decided to put three into the codex.

Because think about it for a moment. If you gave a banewolf torrent, then why would you ever take a hellhound? You lose a little bit against vehicles, but inferno cannons are terrible against vehicles anyways. Meanwhile, against infantry, you gained Ap3, and against monstrous creatures you have that and 2+ poisoned.

The only way that you could make a hellhound work in the world of a torrent banewolf is... well... you can't compete on torrent or Ap, so the only out is S. By how many points of S would you need to increase a hellhound so that it would be worth taking over a torrent banewolf? Honestly, it would have to be pretty high, like S9 or 10, because anything lower, and the fact that the devil dog is AP1 makes it so much better on the one hand, and the banewolf would still be giving you Ap3 on the other.

But then if you have a hellhound at S10, then it kind of makes you wonder why you would bother having a devil dog, as the hellhound will cause penetrating hits far more reliably and cause instant death to more stuff.

Going around and around in my head, I can't see how they could possibly salvage the banewolf without screwing up the other two tanks in that slot, or without doing something crazy and stupid like giving just the banewolf scouts but not giving it to the other two.

Would be better if they just dropped it all together,

Make the hull torrent on the HH with torrent on the Bane wolf top only. Fluff? HH pilots be crazy skilled with fire, yo, whilst banewolfs are too preoccupied with... goop.

I never liked the banewolf's ap3, didn't make sense that toxic slime melts power armor.

Makes about as much sense as sticking a chainsword onto a power fist to make it rending.

 Blaggard wrote:
Makes about as much sense as sticking a chainsword onto a power fist to make it rending.

lol I've totally always thought that (although I know you mean armourbane)

It's 40k, who needs logic?

I just ran across this thread as I was doing my own wonderings about hellhounds. I guess you either like them or don't. I was looking for a way to try them out and came up with a list I thought might be ok with a little help from FWIA. This is the 1500pt list I came up with:

HQ

CCS 170pts
4x Plasma Rifles
Chimera w Autocannon



Troops

4 Vet Squads 160pts each 640pts total
3x meltagun
Chimera w Autocannon



Fast Attack

3x Hellhounds 130 Pts each 390 pts total



Heavy Support

2x Avenger Strike Fighter 150pts each 300pts total

Just a thought for anyone who wanted to try out the HH without dropping air support out of their list.