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So to sum it up... I'd get a seer, couple of rangers, wraithlord and buy as many of S6 shots as I can with my remaining points. Here's why:

1) I think at low points a Wraithlord is just too good to pass on. He's a monstrous creature with T8, that means most low point armies are short on weapons that can even harm it, much less do so reliably. Secondly, he has S10, just like that. If you really really encounter a big tank or something at that low point counts, he can crack it in one swing. He will bring 2x flamers to kill get some numbers off GEQ and TEQ squads. Lastly, he'll bring you a BS4 platform for a S6 weapon (SL or SC). That means vehicles and big squads alike will tend to avoid it and change their positioning and movement just because the damn thing is on the field.

2) Because of the 6th edition challenge rules, the wraithlord can stand up to small squads of TEQ or against orc squads that have a nob with claw, etc.

3) The rangers are relatively scary, especially with guide/doom, because they can pick of units at 36 range and with precise shots you'll get to pick the one guy in the squad that has the multimelter/power fist/plasmapistol or whatever that could harm the wraithlord. (5 guided rangers have a 79,7% chance of rolling at least 1 six per turn). That means your adversary will always have to carefully count the number of big weapons left. Rangers are also reasonable against smaller squads of TEQ from afar.

4) I don't know about a seer council at low cost points. You'll need some troops, both rangers and and DA are expensive, you'll want some warwalkers, you'll want a wraithlord and maybe some gadgets (stones and/or runes on far seer etc)... I would not want to pay that many points for warlocks on jetbikes at 600 points.

Tread very lightly against Imperial Guard. Wraithlords are very hard to get cover for, and Bring it Down combined with las cannons are going to tear him apart.

You'll also want to tread lightly against Dark Eldar, as every weapon they put on the table is threatening to a Wraithlord- Dark Lancese ignore its armour and poisoned shooting bypasses your toughness.


That essentially is why I would be warey of Rangers and a Wraithlord. Yes, those models will cripple space marines, but space marines (with the exception of certain Space Wolf / GK builds) are going to be very weak at 600 points. You need to build your list with Guard / Dark Eldar / Tyranids and maybe Necron / Tau. Those are the armies which will be able to put together some solid cheap troop and HQ choices (in the case of tyranids can actually spawn more models which is crazy powerful at 600 points) and still have enough points to spend on bringing big guns to the table that will kill the opponents tiny armies.

The issue with a wraithlord, is that most of the armies you should be worried about will be able to quickly kill him before he can do anything meaningful. (vendettas and las cannons, lances + poison, poisoned respawning gaunts, rail guns). In fact even a good Space Wolf list will tear him apart in a single turn (2 las plas razor backs + 5 Missile Long Fangs). He'll be good against Marine lists which don't have a lot of shooting (the very bottom tier), Necrons (though be careful of wraiths), and Orks if you can stop power claws by challenging. Of course... if he has his warboss and a nob in the same squad you die, as you can only stop one of them from swinging.

At 100+ points he costs you a lot of points, more once you start giving him a BL + Missile launcher or even Scatter + Shuriken Cannon. So do you really want to spend over 20% of your points on a model which will end up being a liability against most of the strongest lists in a 600 point meta, and only significantly helping you against the weakest?

Anyway, to give you an idea of what I am talking about, here are some of the lists I figure are the scariest to face at 600 points. These are the lists you need to keep in mind, as they will be the ones with the strongest chance of winning. I'm not really sure what Tau or Necron can do at this level. But also note that they can bring some solid stuff as well.



You get the idea. Those are the kinds of lists you should be prepared to face. Most of those lists will be able to handily deal with a wraithlord in the first turn or so, and rangers just cost you too many points for too little fire power to really compete- although sniping is awesome when it works.

Also note that Srength 6 spam is capable of holding its own vs the majority of these lists, especially if the Eldar player manages to maintain some semblance of speed, to better pick fights and isolate targets.

I agree with most of what akean says, but unless you are playing against guard, I think you will not find that many very big guns (lasguns) that can take it down easily at 600 points. Most of the lists he's supplied will be hard or close to impossible to beat with eldar no matter what and I don't think that's going to change before the new codex.

The Wraithlord will pack you 7 S6 shots at BS4 for 120 points. Investing in two war walkers will pack you 16 S6 at BS3 for 120 points. So in essence, you can trade some of your warwalkers (aka S6 shots) for a creature that can punch down big targets in CC, has two flamers and and more BS and gives you a W3 T10 MC. I think it will be a decent deal. I'm not saying you shouldn't invest most of your points in war walkers, I'm just saying 1 Wraithlord is very very very hard to pass up in small games.

As for the troop choices: yeah, you're just about right that Rangers don't pack enough punch for their point value. But so is every single other troop choice eldar has in the current codex. DA with WS bring 7 6S shots for 185 (wtf!!) points. It's just hilarous. Guardians are even worse point for point: They bring 4 S6 shots for 95 points (=190 for 8 S6). And at least the DA will be better than guardians after their WS is done for and be much more mobile while its still there. So it's really a question of rangers vs DA in WS, and you can get two squads of rangers (190 pts) for 1 squad of DA in WS. So I've always been running rangers ever since.

Something similar to



seems fairly balanced to me, given that some lists lose to the wraithlord outright and lots of lists have problems living through 31 S6 shots plus the list will pack two flamers.
There will be some variants, like different loadouts on your heavy choices, farseer on jetbike (but honestly, the model alone is a pain to manufacture), saving points on the runes, witchblade vs spear, etc and some similar lists have 6 rangers per squad. But by and large, the frame will stay the same and I think its decent.

I agree with Firlissa's list... The only thing you are open to is AV13-14 vehicles... the only response you have is the Farseer's spear...

The only option I see would be a BL + Scatterlaser Wraithlord or BL + EML wraithlord... to get it to 145 or 155 points, you have to lose 2 walkers and change the rangers to 5 DA or lose the runes of witnessing, runes of warding and spear from the farseer. Each has its problems... I would chose the DA vs the rangers and hope my opponent will ignore this as the least threatening squad...
2 Wraithlords, 1 war walker, 1 ranger + farseer or DA...

Firlissa raises a good point. The wraithlord in low points games is more than a brilliant thing. I would give it a BL rather than SL or SC. The BS4 BL is better than on a guardian platform. So all in all, 1 wraithlord=100~120 points.

I would think that it would be well worth it to put a second weapon on said wraithlord -- it's the best shooting platform we have, and for an extra ten to twenty percent on the price, one can take maximum advantage of it. Even just a scatter laser if nothing else -- it would only be wasted on AV 13/14, and at this points levels you may often face opponents with little to no armor targets!

 Verthane wrote:
I would think that it would be well worth it to put a second weapon on said wraithlord -- it's the best shooting platform we have, and for an extra ten to twenty percent on the price, one can take maximum advantage of it. Even just a scatter laser if nothing else -- it would only be wasted on AV 13/14, and at this points levels you may often face opponents with little to no armor targets!

Thats a good idea, though I would run something like this:

Farseer, doom-70

10 Guardians-Shuriken Cannon
5 Dire Avengers-60

Wraithlord,BL-130
Wraithlord,SL,SC-120
Wraithlord,SL,SC-120

For a total of 595 points. This at least gives you some objective capturing skills.

I would be tempted to drop the BL wraithlord of a unit of swooping hawks-Haywire grenades in 6th ed are nuts!



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I also highly recommend pathfinders, like I have said previously. They are extremely useful, as not only do you wound everything on a 4+, you also glance/penetrate AV 10-12 on a regular basis. Aside from this, with the new wound allocation and 6s with snipers, coupled with AP1 on a 5 or 6 to hit. (plus rending opportunities to wound) you get a unit that can efficiently kill MCs and TEQs. It's also relatively durable (compared to guardians) as you get a 2+ cover save that you can fortune (!!!). So all in all, you get a unit that is a good anti MEQ/TEQ/MC unit that can also take on light vehicles with ease.

Wow, some massive info dumps right there. Thanks for the help guys!
I'm formulating some lists now, taking in all the information you guys have thrown at me, I'll make another post soon on some ideas I have with the lists included.

 Verthane wrote:
I also highly recommend pathfinders, like I have said previously. They are extremely useful, as not only do you wound everything on a 4+, you also glance/penetrate AV 10-12 on a regular basis. Aside from this, with the new wound allocation and 6s with snipers, coupled with AP1 on a 5 or 6 to hit. (plus rending opportunities to wound) you get a unit that can efficiently kill MCs and TEQs. It's also relatively durable (compared to guardians) as you get a 2+ cover save that you can fortune (!!!). So all in all, you get a unit that is a good anti MEQ/TEQ/MC unit that can also take on light vehicles with ease.

Wait, snipers only count as S3 against vehicles, how would they be hurting against AV's that high?
I know with rending you add D3 to the armor pen roll.
Am I missing a rule or something?

Sniper rifles are st3, + D6 roll. Then you get +d3 if you roll a six, giving you a potential of glancing av12.

Yes, snipers are S3, Plus 6 to rend plus a D3.

OFF TOPIC: you may want to quote me on that, not verthane(he didnt post that)


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http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Rangers/Pathfinder_Tactica

An article I wrote up about rangers/pathfinders



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Just another thing, when do you need this list by?

 Timmy149 wrote:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Rangers/Pathfinder_Tactica An article I wrote up about rangers/pathfinders

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Just another thing, when do you need this list by?

Ah, that's quite helpful, and I was just being stupid and not quite reading into the Ranger's rules as much as I should have been, I see their usefulness now.
And there's no rush, I don't need the list by any specific time.
Right, so here's the list I've got going around in my head, and I do see the flaws in it.

Farseer, Spirit Stones, Fortune, Presience - 125Pts

Dire Avengers x10, Exarch, Shimmershield, Bladestorm - 162Pts

Rangers x5 - 95 Pts

Wraithlord, EML, SL - 135Pts

542 Points, 58 points to spare. Should I take off the cost of the Dire Avengers? More rangers? Upgrade them to Pathfinders?
Also, am I right in believing that Presience is literally Guide except it can be used in CC and has a 12" range rather than 6"?

Dire Avengers x10, Exarch, Shimmershield, Bladestorm - 162Pts

Well I think the points you are sticking in the shimmershield is a waste... No defend so who cares that you are getting a 5++ save?
So they last in combat for one turn, you have nothing in your army to save them... Bladestorm is something I love when I have multiple units of DA not just one... I would think about 3 replacements

10 DA nothing 120 20 shots...14 hits... 7 wounds... 2 dead marines.
10 DA Exarch w Dual Cats 137 22 shots... 16 hits... 8 wounds ... 3 dead marines...
10 Guardians w Scatterlaser 95 4 S6 shots out to 36" ... 11 hits at 12" ...6 wounds... 2 dead marines...

Personally I would play 5 DA for 60 points and put out a bare Wraithlord ... in addition to the rest of your army the 2nd wraithlord is going to be more of a pain than 5 extra Dire Avengers.


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Farseer, Spirit Stones, Fortune, Presience - 125Pts


I believe you need to replace all your spells or none.

Spirit Stones... too many points for the ability to cast 2 spells.

Prescience a better version of guide. This is awesome with primarily BS 3 troops or vehicles. Less so with BS 4.

Doom awesome with sniper rifles and S4 weapons but almost worthless with S6 weapons...

Given your list, you have all BS4 and a lot of sniper rifles and S4 shots... You need a Doom sorcerer...

Now if you want a variant list that ignores ranged firepower...

Farseer Spear- Fortune 73 ?
Farseer Spear- Doom 68 ?

6 Warlocks- 150

5 Rangers 95
5 Dire Avengers 60

Wraithlord - Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon 125

571 ...
Add one enhance and then add destructor to as many warlocks as you can...

This gives you a scary HTH army generating 19 attacks that hit first, generally hit on a 3+ and wound on a 2+.. With the fortune you have rerollable 4++ saves... This unit will generally never lose a close combat except to hoards of attacks that go first and/or terminators... Besides... shielding the wraithlord who can always enter into the combat and beat the snot out of anything that holds up the seer council.

Problems? Well no S8 + attacks but the 1 or 2 spears of the farseers with an awesome range of 12". But it going to be very scary for anyone to see 7 spellcasters backed up by a wraithlord.

I have played many low point games at the 500 point level with patrol rules and played Eldar many times. I have used Warp Spiders with and without Exarch for some extra str6 punch that I can deliver where needed. If you run the Exarch put power blades on him just in case of being in assault, it may make the difference as you will have 3 power weapon attacks at I5 even at str 3 I feel it helps. I also used War Walkers with eml for a blanket of blasts or the 4 krak shots even if only 2 hit this can do the job. You will need to either keep them behind/in cover or outflank them for possible side rear shots. I try to tag team them with the Spiders and this works great for me. I think Eldar can be very fun and even competative at the lower point level without having to use multi WL's. I wish you many victories my brother in Khaine's name.

Also a point-> I know what you meant with prescience, but you cannot take both fortune and prescience. It's either codex powers or book powers.

-Definitely drop the shimmershield, its not worth it.
-Upgrade the rangers to pathfinders (25pts)
-Take twin shuriken catapults on the exarch.

I also agree with what DAaddict has to say, an extra wraithlord will be far scarier than some avengers, (although I do love killing termies in a turn with 10...But thats off topic )

EDIT: Has anybody considered taking a wraithseer with D-Cannon? (Forge World)

As far as I know, he has not mentioned his group allowing Forgeworld rules. It is probably best to just stick with the codex.



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And no, you can not mix and match book powers and codex powers. It is one or the other.

Awww, so no warp hunter?

He is new enough as it is... let him learn the Codex stuff before he starts dipping into experimental rules from Forgeworld.


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Besides, a new codex is coming down the pipes within the next year. It might have some of the Forgeworld stuff now in it.

Just a point in support of Hedgey, Just because you are new to dakka, doesn't mean you haven't been playing for longer. Asking people for advice is also not a sign of newbieness, but a sign of accepting opinions and requesting help.

But back on topic, I think rangers (or pathfinders) make a good home objective capture unit, provided they are kept out of range of flamers and CC.

BlkTom wrote:He is new enough as it is... let him learn the Codex stuff before he starts dipping into experimental rules from Forgeworld.
Besides, a new codex is coming down the pipes within the next year. It might have some of the Forgeworld stuff now in it.

Timmy149 wrote:Just a point in support of Hedgey, Just because you are new to dakka, doesn't mean you haven't been playing for longer. Asking people for advice is also not a sign of newbieness, but a sign of accepting opinions and requesting help.
But back on topic, I think rangers (or pathfinders) make a good home objective capture unit, provided they are kept out of range of flamers and CC.

You guys are both right, but I haven't been playing for very long, I think about three or four months by now. Currently (in terms of models) I'm only barely scraping 1000pts (20 x DA, 5 x Rangers, 6 x Fire Dragons and a Farseer). And yeah, no forgeworld for the time being, the only thing that has me really interested in forge world rules is the flyers, which I imagine will be featured in the next Eldar Codex, which I can wait for..
On a side note, I really hope we get assault vehicles (We probably will), because suddenly Banshees and the melee variant of DA would become a lot more useful.
Also, I was thinking, instead of getting some Dire Avengers in this list, should I just get some Guardians and then try and fit a second Wraithlord?The Guardians would bring about some extra fire power and something to hold objectives (not that DA can't), and I think that a smaller unit of Dire Avengers would be too squishy. But yeah, Pathfinders seem like something I really don't want to miss putting in (most of) my future lists.

Giving us a list of what you have really helps us to tweak lists-Thanks for that! So based off what you have, I would run: (more or less)

Farseer (guide, doom), 10 DA (for moving forward), rangers (home objectives), and the Fire Dragons (anti-TEQs, Vehicles, MEQs, MCs, etc) Not sure of what that comes to specifically, but I run similar at 500 (no fire dragons) and it works wonders. The way I run it at 600 pts is:

+++ Help For SpartanHedgey (593pts) +++ +++ 600pt Eldar 6th Ed (2006) Roster (Primary Detachment)) +++ Selections: Eldar 6th Ed (2006) (Primary Detachment) Selections: + HQ + (120pts) * Farseer (120pts) (Farseer's Psychic Powers, Fleet, Independent Character, Psyker) Ghosthelm (Ghosthelm), Psychic: Doom (25pts) (Psychic: Doom), Psychic: Guide (20pts) (Psychic: Guide), Rune armour (Rune Armour), Shuriken pistol, Spirit stones (20pts) (Spirit Stones), Witchblade + Troops + (301pts) * Dire Avengers (157pts) (Fleet) * 9x Dire Avenger (108pts) 9x Avenger shuriken catapult * Exarch (49pts) Bladestorm (15pts) (Bladestorm), Diresword and shuriken pistol (10pts) * Rangers (144pts) (Fleet, Masters of Stealth) * 6x Ranger (144pts) 6x Pathfinder (30pts) (Pathfinder), 6x Ranger long rifle, 6x Shuriken pistol + Fast Attack + (172pts) * Swooping Hawks (172pts) * Exarch (67pts) Haywire grenades, Intercept (5pts) (Intercept), Plasma grenades, Skyleap (15pts) (Skyleap), Sunrifle (15pts), Swooping Hawk grenade pack (Swooping Hawk Grenade Pack), Swooping Hawk wings (Swooping Hawk Wings) * 5x Swooping Hawk (105pts) 5x Haywire grenades, 5x Lasblaster, 5x Plasma grenades, 5x Swooping Hawk grenade pack (Swooping Hawk Grenade Pack), 5x Swooping Hawk wings (Swooping Hawk Wings)
Created with BattleScribe

If you wanted to, you could swap out the hawks for some Fire Dragons, a Wraithlord, more DA, etc...

(BTW, I got the 6th ranger from here.)

 Timmy149 wrote:
Giving us a list of what you have really helps us to tweak lists-Thanks for that! So based off what you have, I would run: (more or less)
Farseer (guide, doom), 10 DA (for moving forward), rangers (home objectives), and the Fire Dragons (anti-TEQs, Vehicles, MEQs, MCs, etc) Not sure of what that comes to specifically, but I run similar at 500 (no fire dragons) and it works wonders. The way I run it at 600 pts is:
+ HQ + (120pts) * Farseer (120pts) (Farseer's Psychic Powers, Fleet, Independent Character, Psyker) Ghosthelm (Ghosthelm), Psychic: Doom (25pts) (Psychic: Doom), Psychic: Guide (20pts) (Psychic: Guide), Rune armour (Rune Armour), Shuriken pistol, Spirit stones (20pts) (Spirit Stones), Witchblade + Troops + (301pts) * Dire Avengers (157pts) (Fleet) * 9x Dire Avenger (108pts) 9x Avenger shuriken catapult * Exarch (49pts) Bladestorm (15pts) (Bladestorm), Diresword and shuriken pistol (10pts) * Rangers (144pts) (Fleet, Masters of Stealth) * 6x Ranger (144pts) 6x Pathfinder (30pts) (Pathfinder), 6x Ranger long rifle, 6x Shuriken pistol + Fast Attack + (172pts) * Swooping Hawks (172pts) * Exarch (67pts) Haywire grenades, Intercept (5pts) (Intercept), Plasma grenades, Skyleap (15pts) (Skyleap), Sunrifle (15pts), Swooping Hawk grenade pack (Swooping Hawk Grenade Pack), Swooping Hawk wings (Swooping Hawk Wings) * 5x Swooping Hawk (105pts) 5x Haywire grenades, 5x Lasblaster, 5x Plasma grenades, 5x Swooping Hawk grenade pack (Swooping Hawk Grenade Pack), 5x Swooping Hawk wings (Swooping Hawk Wings)
Created with BattleScribe

If you wanted to, you could swap out the hawks for some Fire Dragons, a Wraithlord, more DA, etc...

(BTW, I got the 6th ranger from here.)

Cool! But about that extra ranger.. There's no way I'm paying £7 for a single ranger model, even if it is in a cool pose. (God damnit, GW!) I might see if I can pick up some extra rangers on ebay for cheap.
Additionally, hawks don't really float my boat too much.. I know they can put the large blast on the table almost every turn, and I have seen various tacticas on them, but they don't draw me in too much, I'd rather have something that can stand up on it's on two feet in a firefight, or in combat, or brings something undeniably awesome like rangers/pathfinders do. But, once again, maybe there's something I'm missing
Also, you said something about including fire dragons in this list? But it seems like their problem is that you need to have them in transport because with it whenever they show their faces they're the thing that your opponent shoots everything at xD I experienced that in a recent game where for the whole game I was shuffling the poor bastards around this tiny building trying to get them out of LOS, and at the moment I had to charge and shoot at his tank I took a difficult terrain test to run through a door but was just out of range so ran them back out of LOS
Anyhow, I do have a more general question about Eldar as an army, do you play defensively, or offensively, or does that entirely depend on how your list is built? Especially in low point games?
Thanks guys!!

If it helps, this is what I run at 1500 pts. Works well, although I do need a bit more Anti-Tank. Plenty of Troops, haywire grenades for vehicles, skyleap+pieplate for anti-horde, It works in a fashion. Enhance is there when the support weapons get dreadinated. (I love witchblades against dreads ) I leave my seer with a DA squad, reapers, pathfinders and support weapons on the backline, guarding objectives. I usually have a unit of Avengers and Hawks in reserve, then hug cover and advance, trying to stay out of LOS.

+++ 1500DPW (1487pts) +++ +++ 1500pt Eldar 6th Ed (2006) - M8B Edition Roster (Primary Detachment)) +++ Selections: Eldar 6th Ed (2006) (Primary Detachment) Selections: + HQ + (150pts) * Farseer (150pts) (Farseer's Psychic Powers, Fleet, Independent Character, Psyker) Ghosthelm (Ghosthelm), Psychic: Doom (25pts) (Psychic: Doom), Psychic: Fortune (30pts) (Psychic: Fortune), Psychic: Guide (20pts) (Psychic: Guide), Rune armour (Rune Armour), Shuriken pistol, Spirit stones (20pts) (Spirit Stones), Witchblade + Elites + (138pts) * Striking Scorpions (138pts) * Exarch (58pts) Biting blade (5pts), Mandiblasters (Mandiblasters), Plasma grenades, Shadowstrike (20pts) (Shadowstrike), Shuriken pistol, Stalker (5pts) (Stalker) * 5x Striking Scorpion (80pts) 5x Mandiblasters (Mandiblasters), 5x Plasma grenades (Plasma Grenades), 5x Scorpion chainsword (Scorpion Chainsword), 5x Shuriken pistol + Troops + (615pts) * Dire Avengers (157pts) (Fleet) * 9x Dire Avenger (108pts) 9x Avenger shuriken catapult * Exarch (49pts) Bladestorm (15pts) (Bladestorm), Diresword and shuriken pistol (10pts) * Dire Avengers (157pts) (Fleet) * 9x Dire Avenger (108pts) 9x Avenger shuriken catapult * Exarch (49pts) Bladestorm (15pts) (Bladestorm), Diresword and shuriken pistol (10pts) * Dire Avengers (157pts) (Fleet) * 9x Dire Avenger (108pts) 9x Avenger shuriken catapult * Exarch (49pts) Bladestorm (15pts) (Bladestorm), Diresword and shuriken pistol (10pts) * Rangers (144pts) (Fleet, Masters of Stealth) * 6x Ranger (144pts) 6x Pathfinder (30pts) (Pathfinder), 6x Ranger long rifle, 6x Shuriken pistol + Fast Attack + (172pts) * Swooping Hawks (172pts) * Exarch (67pts) Haywire grenades, Intercept (5pts) (Intercept), Plasma grenades, Skyleap (15pts) (Skyleap), Sunrifle (15pts), Swooping Hawk grenade pack (Swooping Hawk Grenade Pack), Swooping Hawk wings (Swooping Hawk Wings) * 5x Swooping Hawk (105pts) 5x Haywire grenades, 5x Lasblaster, 5x Plasma grenades, 5x Swooping Hawk grenade pack (Swooping Hawk Grenade Pack), 5x Swooping Hawk wings (Swooping Hawk Wings) + Heavy Support + (412pts) * Dark Reapers (167pts) * 2x Dark Reaper (70pts) 2x Reaper launcher * Exarch (97pts) Crack Shot (10pts) (Crack Shot), Fast Shot (20pts) (Fast Shot), Tempest launcher (20pts) * Dark Reapers (105pts) * 3x Dark Reaper (105pts) 3x Reaper launcher * Support Weapon Battery (140pts) * Support weapon (50pts) D-cannon (30pts) * 2x Guardian 2x Shuriken catapult * Support weapon (50pts) D-cannon (30pts) * 2x Guardian 2x Shuriken catapult * Warlock (40pts) Psychic: Enhance (15pts) (Psychic: Enhance), Rune armour, Shuriken pistol, Witchblade
Created with BattleScribe



If you want to run your Fire Dragons, Then I highly recommend getting (or obtaining) a wave serpent. Depending on how you want to use it, I would recommend arming it with either BL or SL (if you can, try running it with twin EML, for more versitility). You also need them to be where you need them, when you need them, so I would take Star Engines on the Serpent. I don't own any myself, (I have borrowed a friend's though) I think they are good in 600pts vs TEQs if there are no bigger targets,

 Timmy149 wrote:
If it helps, this is what I run at 1500 pts. Works well, although I do need a bit more Anti-Tank. Plenty of Troops, haywire grenades for vehicles, skyleap+pieplate for anti-horde, It works in a fashion. Enhance is there when the support weapons get dreadinated. (I love witchblades against dreads ) I leave my seer with a DA squad, reapers, pathfinders and support weapons on the backline, guarding objectives. I usually have a unit of Avengers and Hawks in reserve, then hug cover and advance, trying to stay out of LOS.

If you want to run your Fire Dragons, Then I highly recommend getting (or obtaining) a wave serpent. Depending on how you want to use it, I would recommend arming it with either BL or SL (if you can, try running it with twin EML, for more versitility). You also need them to be where you need them, when you need them, so I would take Star Engines on the Serpent. I don't own any myself, (I have borrowed a friend's though) I think they are good in 600pts vs TEQs if there are no bigger targets,

Thanks for the help! I've been thinking about getting a wave serpent but then someone said in an earlier post that it would take too many points, which is very true (170pts for 5x dragons with a vanilla serpent), though the model probably would come in handy in larger games. I also do see how swooping hawks could be useful now, but, I guess from more of a fluff perspective I'd rather have warp spiders (not at this point level). Additionally, TEQ has been my biggest fear since I started playing, as one of my friends plays space wolves with a unit of wolf guard in terminator armor, and another plays grey knights with paladins and Draigo
However, I would rather stray from building this list around that as I already have the models I need to deal with TEQ (fire dragons, volume of shots from the dire avengers, pathfinders )

You should be alright if you run DA with bladestorm-After all, the majority of armies will have a hard time fitting more than 6 models into an all-terminator army, so you will outnumber MEQs or TEQs. 10 Bladestorming Dire Avengers spit out 30 shots, re-rolling everything if you use guide/doom. That nets you about 23 hits, and 16 wounds. Statistically speaking, against a 2+ save, there are about three dead. you charge in with your 21 attacks, 11 hits (exarch's WS5) for about 8 wounds, killing a termy. Terminator strikes back, killing an avenger, and you can mop him up next turn.

 Timmy149 wrote:
You should be alright if you run DA with bladestorm-After all, the majority of armies will have a hard time fitting more than 6 models into an all-terminator army, so you will outnumber MEQs or TEQs. 10 Bladestorming Dire Avengers spit out 30 shots, re-rolling everything if you use guide/doom. That nets you about 23 hits, and 16 wounds. Statistically speaking, against a 2+ save, there are about three dead. you charge in with your 21 attacks, 11 hits (exarch's WS5) for about 8 wounds, killing a termy. Terminator strikes back, killing an avenger, and you can mop him up next turn.

Any reason why you use a Diresword for your DA? I just do not see an advantage to it in 6th as your not fighting enough multi-wound units vs Terminators. Just because it is cheaper?

You may think me crazy, but I run my DA with Defend and a Power Ax + Shimmer shield. I have ditched Bladestorm as I feel I need to be able to shoot every turn. Because if you burn in, you lose your overwatch shots. I would only get it at this point so I /can/ burn it on overwatch. Also, to be frank, I just do not have the extra powers for my Psykers to waste on Guide/Doom, as Fortune is to valuable. Yes, I know I am striking at Init 1 instead of 5, and I die alittle on the inside every time. But that 5++ Invuln (melee only) save and -1 to their attack every turn (to a minimum of 1) has helped me more against big nasty things (Necron Wraiths) than anything else. Getting those Str 4 AP 2 attacks through to do damage really help.

I would run a power maul, and keep bladestorm, but othewise I see your point. I just have the diresword because I find it is good points for output