Immobilised vehicle suffering additonal hull point.

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**Bausk**

Crablezworth wrote:
This whole idea that because wounding is now more involved and context sensitive show's you how rolling on the chart works baffles me. Vehicles don't have wounds. How many look out sirs have you made for your vehicles recently?

The bottom line is even though we're parsing out and compartmentalizing the now very involved and context sensitive wounding system, the end result is unit x shoots unit y, 4 models killed. From a causality standpoint in game terms they all died at the same time. Think of shooting a squad of 10 ork boys who ar all identical, all of a sudeen you can just say "I did 6 wounds with my bolters so 6 dead". It's the same reason you go unit by unit and not model by model in terms of declaring shooting and seeing the results. Some units you end up firing first at in a shooting phase simply because the firing unit have no other targets and there's no real decisions to be made.

People on dakka keep pointing at how shooting models or infantry squads work to somehow explain how pen table rolls work. Again, I'll be the adult and admit simply, there is no clear answer either way in the rulebook to whether it's simul or sequential.

Look at weapon destroyed, it tells you to randomize, you could very well end up destroying the same weapon twice. The whole point of randomization is to have an equal chance at different outcomes. This would represent 2 different people shooting the same weapon at the same time rather than one of them waiting to see which weapon got blown off then targeting the second one. And in the case of the latter example, that's totally fine provided one unit shot and then another unit shot, not the same unit all shooting at once.

Again, its not so much about sequence as it is about application of the full damage. Even with randomization of weapon destroyed results each has to be applied and resolved separately for the full effect of the damage to take effect. For instance if you scored two weapon destroyed results on a stock Russ Battle Tank; You would randomize the first result as there are two weapons then the second does not need to be rolled as there is only one weapon that is functional. Well that's what you're supposed to do, but I'd just say both are destroyed and there's no point rolling the first lol. It's much like the rules for moving though models are not specified in the movement section but still referenced in the assault section.

I presume you mean my long fang example, its a single unit that may divide its firing models to make shooting attacks against two different units.if the pack leader (character) does not fire. In that case, no the remaining models may not fire at the disembarked unit. In the case of two units firing on two units, the answer is obviously a' yes, that's fine'.

**Purifier**

The equivalent for a unit of troopers, given that all shots are fired at once, would be that all shots would be resolved with the closest person still alive.

I.E. you'd roll to see how many times one model dies, and no more than one could ever die from one unit shooting at it.

This is clearly not the case.

**deviantduck**

would it be helpful to view everything as a timeline?

Moment 1 - Vehicle currently mobile, 3 hull points
Shot Fired
Shot Fired

Moment 2 - Vehicle currently mobile, 3 hull points
Penetrating Hit
Penetrating Hit

Moment 3 - Vehicle currently mobile, 3 hull points
Immobilizing result - is vehicle mobile? yes. apply immob result and 1 hull point
Immobilizing result - is vehicle mobile? yes. apply immob result and 1 hull point
^ note, those are simultaneous in the same exact moment.

Moment 4 - Vehicle is NOW immobile, 1 hull point remaining.

i've never encountered 2 pens causing two immob results doing 3 hull points.

inversely, if one squad fires at a vehicle and gets 2 pens and you get 2x 6s (explodes) all the units in a transport do take 2x str 4 ap- hits. because there's nothing that states a vehicle can't explode more than once, both rules and fluff-wise.

**nosferatu1001**

Again: you only have permission to Fast Dice Roll when this does not affect the rolls you are making.

This does affect the rolls you are making, therefore you must roll singly.

**Kevin949**

Crablezworth wrote:
This whole idea that because wounding is now more involved and context sensitive show's you how rolling on the chart works baffles me. Vehicles don't have wounds. How many look out sirs have you made for your vehicles recently?

The bottom line is even though we're parsing out and compartmentalizing the now very involved and context sensitive wounding system, the end result is unit x shoots unit y, 4 models killed. From a causality standpoint in game terms they all died at the same time. Think of shooting a squad of 10 ork boys who ar all identical, all of a sudeen you can just say "I did 6 wounds with my bolters so 6 dead". It's the same reason you go unit by unit and not model by model in terms of declaring shooting and seeing the results. Some units you end up firing first at in a shooting phase simply because the firing unit have no other targets and there's no real decisions to be made.

People on dakka keep pointing at how shooting models or infantry squads work to somehow explain how pen table rolls work. Again, I'll be the adult and admit simply, there is no clear answer either way in the rulebook to whether it's simul or sequential.

Look at weapon destroyed, it tells you to randomize, you could very well end up destroying the same weapon twice. The whole point of randomization is to have an equal chance at different outcomes. This would represent 2 different people shooting the same weapon at the same time rather than one of them waiting to see which weapon got blown off then targeting the second one. And in the case of the latter example, that's totally fine provided one unit shot and then another unit shot, not the same unit all shooting at once.

Let me ask you, is this how you played it in 5th edition as well? Where multiple immobilized/weapon destroyed results in the same shooting attack would never result in a wreck if enough were scored, and no more than 1 weapon could be destroyed?

**Crablezworth**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again: you only have permission to Fast Dice Roll when this does not affect the rolls you are making.

This does affect the rolls you are making, therefore you must roll singly.

pg 13 "all models in the unit fire at the same time regardless of whether or not all the dice are rolled together"

And really it's the context of the unit IE if it's complex that would force you to parse something out, if the unit is composed of 100% the same models the only reason to slow things down might be if tt's difficult to determine the next closest model. All of this has sweet fa to do with vehicles and charts.

Notice how you guys have stopped even trying to quote some rule to support your perspective?

**nosferatu1001**

Notice how you continue to seem to be massively invested and defensive in this position?

Again, the rules for Fast Dice Rolling do not let you do this if you have rules to worry about. Do you have rules to worry about? Do you have permission to Fast Dice Roll?

**Kevin949**

Crablezworth wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again: you only have permission to Fast Dice Roll when this does not affect the rolls you are making.

This does affect the rolls you are making, therefore you must roll singly.

pg 13 "all models in the unit fire at the same time regardless of whether or not all the dice are rolled together"

And really it's the context of the unit IE if it's complex that would force you to parse something out, if the unit is composed of 100% the same models the only reason to slow things down might be if tt's difficult to determine the next closest model. All of this has sweet fa to do with vehicles and charts.

Notice how you guys have stopped even trying to quote some rule to support your perspective?

Yes, all models in a unit fire at the same time, but wounds are not caused at the same time.

**Crablezworth**

Kevin949 wrote:
Crablezworth wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again: you only have permission to Fast Dice Roll when this does not affect the rolls you are making.

This does affect the rolls you are making, therefore you must roll singly.

pg 13 "all models in the unit fire at the same time regardless of whether or not all the dice are rolled together"

And really it's the context of the unit IE if it's complex that would force you to parse something out, if the unit is composed of 100% the same models the only reason to slow things down might be if tt's difficult to determine the next closest model. All of this has sweet fa to do with vehicles and charts.

Notice how you guys have stopped even trying to quote some rule to support your perspective?

Yes, all models in a unit fire at the same time, but wounds are not caused at the same time.

Good to know, I'll make sure to look out sir the next weapon destroyed I get....

I guess by your logic I should roll each shooting and pen from the closest model to the vehicle all the way to the furthest model from the vehicle and order the pen rolls in the that order...

**Kevin949**

Crablezworth wrote:
Kevin949 wrote:
Crablezworth wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again: you only have permission to Fast Dice Roll when this does not affect the rolls you are making.

This does affect the rolls you are making, therefore you must roll singly.

pg 13 "all models in the unit fire at the same time regardless of whether or not all the dice are rolled together"

And really it's the context of the unit IE if it's complex that would force you to parse something out, if the unit is composed of 100% the same models the only reason to slow things down might be if tt's difficult to determine the next closest model. All of this has sweet fa to do with vehicles and charts.

Notice how you guys have stopped even trying to quote some rule to support your perspective?

Yes, all models in a unit fire at the same time, but wounds are not caused at the same time.

Good to know, I'll make sure to look out sir the next weapon destroyed I get....

I guess by your logic I should roll each shooting and pen from the closest model to the vehicle all the way to the furthest model from the vehicle and order the pen rolls in the that order...

By "my logic", you mean "the rules"? And you keep making that reference about LoS! a glance/pen. Have you completely ignored my reference that the main reason you can't do that is because almost every vehicle is a non-character. Consequently, if you had a character in a squadron you probably could look out sir a damage result as you are told to allocate "exactly as wounds". But that is not the question here, and my referencing "wounds aren't done at the same time" was only because glance/pen results replace the wound results step, but nothing else in the shooting sequence changes.

Also, are you going to answer my previous question of - "is this how you played it in 5th edition as well? Where multiple immobilized/weapon destroyed results in the same shooting attack would never result in a wreck if enough were scored, and no more than 1 weapon could be destroyed?"

**Bausk**

Crablezworth wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again: you only have permission to Fast Dice Roll when this does not affect the rolls you are making.

This does affect the rolls you are making, therefore you must roll singly.

pg 13 "all models in the unit fire at the same time regardless of whether or not all the dice are rolled together"

And really it's the context of the unit IE if it's complex that would force you to parse something out, if the unit is composed of 100% the same models the only reason to slow things down might be if tt's difficult to determine the next closest model. All of this has sweet fa to do with vehicles and charts.

Notice how you guys have stopped even trying to quote some rule to support your perspective?

That's because I have already quoted and explained the rules. I've even clarified why the one rule you cling to holds no water when applying damage effects.But rather than address and discuss what I have said, like I did with your posts, you just re-post the same snippet of a rule on page 13 like its license it apply all damage effects incorrectly.

**Kevin949**

Bausk wrote:
Crablezworth wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again: you only have permission to Fast Dice Roll when this does not affect the rolls you are making.

This does affect the rolls you are making, therefore you must roll singly.

pg 13 "all models in the unit fire at the same time regardless of whether or not all the dice are rolled together"

And really it's the context of the unit IE if it's complex that would force you to parse something out, if the unit is composed of 100% the same models the only reason to slow things down might be if tt's difficult to determine the next closest model. All of this has sweet fa to do with vehicles and charts.

Notice how you guys have stopped even trying to quote some rule to support your perspective?

That's because I have already quoted and explained the rules. I've even clarified why the one rule you cling to holds no water when applying damage effects.But rather than address and discuss what I have said, like I did with your posts, you just re-post the same snippet of a rule on page 13 like its license it apply all damage effects incorrectly.

That snippet existed in 5th edition as well, as well as about 90% or more of the vehicle damage rules are copied verbatim between the two editions.

This is why I'd like to know from him if he played his way or the correct way in fifth edition or not because to me the damage results on vehicles is handled identically to 5th edition, the only changes are the chart is different and hull points were added.

**Scipio Africanus**

How is this argument even a thing?

You lose a HP per pen and per glance. End of discussion. A tank that loses 3 hull points from 3 different damage results is dead regardless of whether he then proceeds to explode, or simply lose two weapons in the process.

**Kevin949**

Scipio Africanus wrote:
How is this argument even a thing?

You lose a HP per pen and per glance. End of discussion. A tank that loses 3 hull points from 3 different damage results is dead regardless of whether he then proceeds to explode, or simply lose two weapons in the process.

A monolith wouldn't be dead from 3 hull point loss. nor a land raider.

The issue is that Crablezworth is stating multiple results are all applied at the same time and won't have compounding effects. I.E. Two immobilized results from two pens would be two hull point losses to him, and not the proper three.

**Scipio Africanus**

Kevin949 wrote:
Scipio Africanus wrote:
How is this argument even a thing?

You lose a HP per pen and per glance. End of discussion. A tank that loses 3 hull points from 3 different damage results is dead regardless of whether he then proceeds to explode, or simply lose two weapons in the process.

A monolith wouldn't be dead from 3 hull point loss. nor a land raider.

The issue is that Crablezworth is stating multiple results are all applied at the same time and won't have compounding effects. I.E. Two immobilized results from two pens would be two hull point losses to him, and not the proper three.

doesn't the fact that everyone completely disagrees with them ever count for anything?

Also, I know that monoliths and LR have 4HP. I think 3 is a safe number to use as a basic, although I will concede I was vague

**DJGietzen**

I have a very relevant question. Where does it say that the results of the vehicle pen chart are applied simultaneously?

If your argument is going to be that the shots are all simultaneous and therefor the effects must also be simultaneous we already know that the effects of being wounded are not applied simultaneously and while I would agree that attempting to would and attempting to penetrate are different things, the attempt to wound is the standard by witch all other shooting should be judged because those are the standard shooting rules and shooting at a vehicle modifies them.

For me, its just an varient step.
Roll to hit > Roll to wound > allocate wounds
Roll to hit > Roll to penetrate > determine results of penetrate

Because allocating is done one at a time, so should its counter part.

Yes, this is a RAI argument, but without explicit instruction on how to handle two penetrating hits from the same unit so is the assumption that the effects are applied simultaneously. You may not be wrong, but you cannot be right. No one can with out an errata.

**Kevin949**

Scipio Africanus wrote:
Kevin949 wrote:
Scipio Africanus wrote:
How is this argument even a thing?

You lose a HP per pen and per glance. End of discussion. A tank that loses 3 hull points from 3 different damage results is dead regardless of whether he then proceeds to explode, or simply lose two weapons in the process.

A monolith wouldn't be dead from 3 hull point loss. nor a land raider.

The issue is that Crablezworth is stating multiple results are all applied at the same time and won't have compounding effects. I.E. Two immobilized results from two pens would be two hull point losses to him, and not the proper three.

doesn't the fact that everyone completely disagrees with them ever count for anything?

Also, I know that monoliths and LR have 4HP. I think 3 is a safe number to use as a basic, although I will concede I was vague

Ya, 3 is pretty much the norm, you're right.

And apparently no, it doesn't.

**Abandon**

This is funny. On the premise that all effects are simultaneous (which is not correct) you are not properly applying those simultaneous effects.

You see a weapon is not destroyed until a weapon destroyed result is rolled. If two weapon destroyed results occur simultaneously each would destroy the weapon and since no passage of time is stated, they would also count the other having destroyed it already as well(somewhat of a paradox but we are not bound by physics in 40k so it's alright). This would result in both effects also leading to similarly simultaneous immobilized results(if there are no other weapons) and extra hull point loss for each as well. Which is of course ridiculous...

Can see your point of view here but I think it's absurd. One effect at a time is both implied and much more reasonable.

**Unit1126PLL**

The concept of simultaneity in 40k is hilarious and causes many problems.

IMO it would suffer 3 hull-points worth of damage, because that's what makes sense. I think when GW wrote that all a unit's shots are considered simultaneous, that was to keep you from firing a unit's lascannon, then another unit's missile launcher, then the first unit's lasguns again.

I'm almost positive that's the ONLY purpose of the rule, and IMO the only thing it has a bearing on.

**Crablezworth**

DJGietzen wrote:

Yes, this is a RAI argument, but without explicit instruction on how to handle two penetrating hits from the same unit so is the assumption that the effects are applied simultaneously. You may not be wrong, but you cannot be right. No one can with out an errata.

It's my opinion that that simul is the intention, I fully admit it's my opinion. RAW does not state explcititly either way. That's why we're seeing everone posting quotes about wounding models or units or using 5th ed to try and explain 6th.

It's still an assumption based on another mechanic. The bottom line for me is there is an omission in the rules. Everyone does the usual "it's a permissive rule set, you have to be given permission" to which I think, exactly, where is that permission? And the response is to look at how wounding a unit works. It's the same problem as vehicle explosions, there's an omission in how to resolve the explosion and as such any assumption is defacto wrong because it's not telling you to do that or not to do that, (treat it as a shooting attack or not) it's not telling you anything. And that's something else that has not been faq'd.

So here were are, discussing how the rules are intended to work, and from my perspective it could go either way, that's the problem. Look at the helldrake thing, the vast majority before the faq were 100% right when it came to the rules (that it was stuck with a fairly limited arc of fire dude to it being a vehicle and not a flying mc), that didn't prevent GW from just arbitrarily changing the rules and only for that specific model.

Wouldn't you be more comfortable if this was clarified in an errata or faq? I would, It'd be a lot easier to point at the exact wording that tells you how to do it rather than have to quote a bunch of other rules and explain how you believe it works similarly to those other rules.

**yukondal**

I think it makes sense that the vehicle would only lose 2 hull points. It just makes sense that the shots are simultaneous.

Like when you and some friends are shooting clay pigeons: if you throw 2 clay pigeons and have 3 guys shooting at the same time, there is a chance that all 3 of you were shooting at the same target.

I think in the crazy time that this situation actually arises in a game and is detrimental to It's outcome we will roll off for the outcome.

My few cents..

Best of luck in coming to a conclusion.
-yukondal

**Bausk**

You're also missing the main context of the only 'rule' you are quoting in defense of your stand point.

Which is:
Page 13 "A player can choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers (as some models may have One Use Only weapons. For example). This must be declared before rolling to hit, as all of the models in the unit fire at the same time regardless of whether or not all the dice are rolled together."

This is only the declaration phase of what unit is shooting what and what models in your unit are firing. It has no bearing on sequence for to hit rolls, to wound rolls, armour penetration rolls or the application of damage effects there after. There is only one permission for rolling multiple dice, quick rolling, and that does not permit you to stack damage simultaneously.

**deviantduck**

I know no one at our store/group would allocate 3 hull points from 2 shots that penetrate and immobilize.

But in turn, a squad of 10 in a rhino that is hit by 6 lascannons that deal 6 penetrating hits and roll 6 to explode, would deal 60 str 4 ap- hits to the squad, and not 10... because all shots are fired simultaneously, and all explode simultaneously.

**Kevin949**

deviantduck wrote:
I know no one at our store/group would allocate 3 hull points from 2 shots that penetrate and immobilize.

But in turn, a squad of 10 in a rhino that is hit by 6 lascannons that deal 6 penetrating hits and roll 6 to explode, would deal 60 str 4 ap- hits to the squad, and not 10... because all shots are fired simultaneously, and all explode simultaneously.

So I'll ask you, how did you handle two immobilized results from the same shooting attack in the previous edition?

**Thaylen**

I think there is a blurb on page 9 of the BRB of what to do when two or more things happen simultaneously. Something to the effect of the active player deciding the order.

So in the example you would take two simultaneous hits. The damage rolls, needing to happen at the same time, are resolved one at a time in an order of the active players choosing.

The rules reguarding wound allocation are irrelevant. Look out sir is irrelevant.

**yukondal**

It doesn't explode several times. Explosion is a one time gig.

**rigeld2**

yukondal wrote:
It doesn't explode several times. Explosion is a one time gig.

Not true. It only explodes for one distance, but there can be multiple results inflicted.

BRB 74 wrote:(roll for the distance once, regardless of how many times the result is inflicted)

**Crablezworth**

yukondal wrote:
It doesn't explode several times. Explosion is a one time gig.

Where does it say that? I couldn't find it.

**yukondal**

Wait, you are asking if you couldn't find it?

**Crablezworth**

Where is the permission to do one and only one explodes result?