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So the logic is that by charging for a bag, fewer people will request them, and therefore less plastic will go to landfills?

So then why charge for a bag that is biodegradable? Is the old 'Merica bag still available? I'm not going to pay more for an issue that to 90% of people is an "out of sight out of mind" issue.

I agree with making the eco bags, but if anything they should be the free option and the old cancer bags should be what they charge more for.

People are all for the environment, unless they have to pay for it(Americans that is).

 Aerethan wrote:
So the logic is that by charging for a bag, fewer people will request them, and therefore less plastic will go to landfills?

So then why charge for a bag that is biodegradable?

Because fewer people asking for bags also reduces the number of bags that need to be made, and reducing the amount of unnecessary plastic we produce in factories is also good for the environment.

They can have my plastic bags when they pry them from my cold dead hands.

My town (Issaquah, WA) just enacted a plastic bag ban and 5-cent paper bag fee. This follows a styrofoam container ban set in place a couple years back (restraunts switched to bio-degradable).

This ticks me off because I reused all the plastic bags after shopping - carrying wet clothes, litter, protecting bags from lunches, etc. The paper bags I use to carry all my other recyclables.

Carrying totes is a load of bull - studies in SF show they're ladden with germs and actually make it easier to shoplift in stores. They would also cause me to limit my purchases as I'd have to worry if everything would fit. Would you require customers at a restraunt to bring their own tupperware?

I pay for my paper bags and that's another load - turning a cost center into profit - thinly veiled attempt by the City Council to make us appear more green and earth friendly. I just shop elsewhere when I can - voting with my consumer dollar- and waving my plastic bags around like they're collector's items.

Last, the line about landfills makes me laugh. Landfills are designed to inhibit things breaking down. It's like putting garbage into a time capsule. ANYTHING in a landfill is going to last for a long time - they've found newspapers from the 30s that are still legible.

If the stores started offering bio-degradable plastic bags and just roll the cost into the groceries, I'd be fine.

Been the case in Germany for a few months now.

Normal bags = free, bigger ones = pay once, get a new for free if the old one is broken.

I was told a couple of months back here in the UK in my local store that it's going to be a legal requirement here and they will have to charge (an EU regulation).

I'm fairly certain this has been in place at least a month here already, maybe 2?

Of course whether that actually is the case or not I have no idea, it could just be a Finebag.

I am actually all for the whole thing, its been common in the UK for years.

I mean, its not just because after a lifetime of death and violence I have become something on an eco warrior, I just think people are lazy so we should actively have the government motivate them. I think the same about recycling, we should introduce weight limits and introduce a nice easy doorstep service to pick recyclables up, I think if you made it nice and easy, tens of millions more people would do it.

I think the same about many things, generally speaking, the great unwashed public tend to be lazy, and its a good thing if we help to motivate them a little.

Anyway, long story short, I shop at Marks and Spencers and they always charge 5p a bag or something, since they started doing that, I now always remember to take a daypack, and fill that with my shopping. Before I set off to the store each week, I now remember to always take my bag, and Its a good thing.

Plus, Plaggy bags are not only bad for the globe, they suck to carry, so we both win. Me and all the polar bears that might have drowned otherwise!

I prefer having things on my back in the slums of Middlesbrough too, just incase I have to fight some muggers or stop on the way home to goad a passing donkey with a sharp stick before dragging its carcass home to feed my starving and malnourished children.

Swan-of-War wrote:

If the stores started offering bio-degradable plastic bags and just roll the cost into the groceries, I'd be fine.

Technically there is no such thing as a 'bio-degradable' plastic. For something to be bio-degradable, it needs to be able to be consumed as food by a bacteria.

While those bags may break down into small components which eventually are small enough to effectivley not exist and may do that at a faster rate, they never actually bio-degrade.

And making/recycling uses energy which is often from fossil fuels. Reusing is always better the same way daylight is always going to be 'better' than super ultra efficient light bulbs. Simply spreading the curtians for natural light beats your 20000 hour bulbs every time and which si why to be LEED certified you need 70% natural light at all times. Sure you need bulbs at night and cloudy days, but it is better than just craptons of lights.

You also no know you can wash your bags right? You don't have to carry around doo-doo bags simply because you reuse them and they get dirty.

robertsjf wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
They might exist on the coasts...but the rest of the country is largely bag fee free.

Add Austin, TX to your list, Sean. I blame all of the people from California.

Its not a tax. Its a ban in Austin.

Paper bags are more harmful to the environment than plastic - that's why plastic was pushed so much in the first place.

And to edit my previous post, replace "bio-degradable plastic bag" with just "bio-degradable bag". I think they're made out of corn starch or something.

And no, I don't want to wash a reusable tote each week. Just like I don't want to wash reusable cotton gloves in lieu of toilet paper.

Swan-of-War wrote:


And no, I don't want to wash a reusable tote each week. Just like I don't want to wash reusable cotton gloves in lieu of toilet paper.

Well, unless you change your pillow monthly, wash your sheets weekly and bleach your sink daily, you walk around all day covered in feces. A bathroom sink is usually dirtier than the inside of a toilet bowl after flushing. People clean and disinfect a toilet bowl, but surprisingly don't disinfect the place they splash the doo-doo particles off their hands where it stays forever. (or at least until it gets a good disinfectant scrub)

In public rest rooms you would be better off putting your hands in the toilet bowl where you just peed and flushed than washing them in the public sink. The handle to leave the bathroom is even more dirty.

I don't buy this idea that somehow you are avoiding reusable bags for sanitary reasons unless you are really OCD. You would need an almost non-functional routine of cleanliness to justify it and even then if you are washing and disinfecting to that level, cleaning a tote is no big deal. Lots of things are going to be infinitely more unsanitary than your own tote and you probably smear those particles all over your face, clothes and food every day.

And the reusable alternative to 'tolet paper' is a bidet... which are pretty great and way better than TP if you can swing it.

Swan-of-War wrote:
And no, I don't want to wash a reusable tote each week.

Then don't. Unless you're rolling around in the mud on your way to do your shopping, they don't get dirty that fast.

Swan-of-War wrote:
Paper bags are more harmful to the environment than plastic - that's why plastic was pushed so much in the first place.

Oh? Explain this please?

There are indeed organic plastics made from corn. Not sure if they make bags out of the stuff, but it exists either way.

I make a point of reusing every grocery store plastic bag I get at least once before tossing it.

I'm not the least bit likely to bring my GW™ FineBag™ to the store just to pick up a few paints.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Swan-of-War wrote:
Paper bags are more harmful to the environment than plastic - that's why plastic was pushed so much in the first place.

Oh? Explain this please?

Both paper and plastic bags have environmental impacts.

One point on paper: Causes pollution: Paper production emits air pollution, specifically 70 percent more pollution than the production of plastic bags [source: Thompson]. According to certain studies, manufacturing paper emits 80 percent more greenhouse gases [source: Lilienfield]. And, consider that making paper uses trees that, instead, could be absorbing carbon dioxide. The paper bag making process also results in 50 times more water pollutants than making plastic bags [source: Thompson].

Mind you, I'm not calling one out over the other, but the manufacturing process of paper is nastier than plastic.

<---- Has worked in paper mills and produced plastic at a chemical plant.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Swan-of-War wrote:
Paper bags are more harmful to the environment than plastic - that's why plastic was pushed so much in the first place.

Oh? Explain this please?

http://www.reuseit.com/learn-more/myth-busting/why-paper-is-no-better-than-plastic

“Studies sponsored by independent retailers or governments generally agree that paper bags are less of a litter problem, but that plastic bags consume less water and energy, and produce less pollution, including greenhouse-gas emissions. In the end, it is a tradeoff. ‘There is a popular misconception that paper bags are more environmentally friendly than plastic bags,’ said a 2005 report for the Scottish government.”- Wall Street Journal, 2009

Basically it takes more energy and resources to make a paper bag and produces chemicals to make a paper bag over a plastic bag... It is also more intensive to recycle paper than plastic.

But a Plastic bag takes a longer time to break down and is worse for the environment if not recycled.

They are both worse than reusable bags, just different kinds of use... So the fact a bag biodegrades doesn't make it 'eco friendly'.

Remember reading an internet article on this topic.

Re-usable canvas bags are actually more enviromentally damaging than disposable plastic bags, unless you use them more than 200 times.. that's how long it takes to hit the breakeven point and pay back the carbon footprint of producing the thing.

Re-usable plastic bags (the thick ones) are the most environmentally-friendly option.

It's not so much using the reusable tote, it's that I've integrated re-using the plastic bags so much into my lifestyle that's it's a real pain in the rear. My family is being enviro-conscious with the ones we are using - every bag is used for lining small garbage bins, scooping litter, carrying my lunches around, wet cleats, etc.

I buy a lot of fresh meats too and they tend to spill. Which is fine if you have a plastic bag - just throw it away. But with a reusable tote, I have to wash it and I don't want chicken juice going into my washing machine just like I don't want a toilet seat going into my dishwasher.

I STILL need plastic bags - now I'm just buying ones that are thicker plastic and even more damaging to the environment. The only ones who benefit are the grocery store because they can charge me for bags instead of giving them away. The 5 cent fee isn't there to cover any sort of increased cost either - it's there to deter people from using them at all.

My area does a 5 cent bag tax. Honestly, I pay half the time for short trips because I forget the big pile of reusable bags. I also tend to pay for 1-2 bags even when I remember the reusable bags for meats and such. It's no big deal. I've reached the point where I am surprised when I get a bag without asking when shopping outside the county.

Bags do get reused at least once, though.

 scarletsquig wrote:
Remember reading an internet article on this topic.

Re-usable canvas bags are actually more enviromentally damaging than disposable plastic bags, unless you use them more than 200 times.. that's how long it takes to hit the breakeven point and pay back the carbon footprint of producing the thing.

Re-usable plastic bags (the thick ones) are the most environmentally-friendly option.

Proud to say I'm still using the same green canvas bags I bought many years ago and only get plastic bags when I've used up my current stash in garbage bins around the house.

They're also useful for stuff besides shopping, they're surprisngly good at carrying booze to parties.

Swan-of-War wrote:
But with a reusable tote, I have to wash it and I don't want chicken juice going into my washing machine just like I don't want a toilet seat going into my dishwasher.

WHat exactly is your washing machine for if not, you know, washing things...?

GW is hardly the first store to charge for 'green' plastic bags in Australia. Hell, Targets been doing it for years.

 kronk wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Swan-of-War wrote:
Paper bags are more harmful to the environment than plastic - that's why plastic was pushed so much in the first place.

Oh? Explain this please?

Both paper and plastic bags have environmental impacts.

One point on paper: Causes pollution: Paper production emits air pollution, specifically 70 percent more pollution than the production of plastic bags [source: Thompson]. According to certain studies, manufacturing paper emits 80 percent more greenhouse gases [source: Lilienfield]. And, consider that making paper uses trees that, instead, could be absorbing carbon dioxide. The paper bag making process also results in 50 times more water pollutants than making plastic bags [source: Thompson].

Mind you, I'm not calling one out over the other, but the manufacturing process of paper is nastier than plastic.

<---- Has worked in paper mills and produced plastic at a chemical plant.

Both you and someone else included links pointing out why paper bags are probably worse for the environment than paper bags. I concur with you; but after skimming both articles, neither of them included one final point in favor of plastic: weight. A thousand paper bags weighs 140 lbs, vs 15 pounds for 1000 plastic bags. These bags don't teleport themselves to retailers - they get there on trucks, which burn gas. Obviously, the more you can deliver the less trips you must make, the less gas burned, etc etc, and when you multiply that by the sheer number of retailers in the country, it obviously adds up quickly.

Is this different to the magical foreverbag thing? Months ago they gave us a reasonably large and sturdy bag with the promise they'd replace it an infinite number of times if it was damaged.

2 questions spring to mind;
1) Does this mean GW are going to claim that they make the finest environmentally friendly black plastic bags in the world?
2) They are going to be included in the annual june price hike?
;P

 Ouze wrote:


Both you and someone else included links pointing out why paper bags are probably worse for the environment than paper bags. I concur with you; but after skimming both articles, neither of them included one final point in favor of plastic: weight. A thousand paper bags weighs 140 lbs, vs 15 pounds for 1000 plastic bags. These bags don't teleport themselves to retailers - they get there on trucks, which burn gas. Obviously, the more you can deliver the less trips you must make, the less gas burned, etc etc, and when you multiply that by the sheer number of retailers in the country, it obviously adds up quickly.

I certainly don't have the answer, unless the answer is pet a cat.

However, I was just pointing out that paper is not 100% super eco-friendly when compared directly to plastic. Something a lot of people didn't know (MGS was asking, in this case).

BHG says it best:
"Like a scrotum, here it is in a nutshell!"

When it comes to bags I prefer paper. I have many more uses for a good paper bag than I do for a plastic bag. A paper bag might cause more pollution than a plastic bag, but plastic has pollution problems of their own. You can not kill a kitten with a paper bag, a plastic one can, as well as a canvas bag that is tied up and thrown in a creek. (True story, I have witnessed this when I was a kid ... PETA would have fits about things such as that now though.)

I really dislike plastic for the most part, not just bags, but for all of the plastic that is around us all the time right now. My Jeeps are a prime example of this. The dash of my '04 TJ Wrangler is almost all plastic. My '82 CJ-5 is almost all steel. I do not like it as well ... of course my CJ gets about 6 miles to the gallon and has 3 foot tall tires at each corner ...

Doesn't matter either way to me. I will still use plastic bags. Trying to motivate me to do what you want by charging me more doesn't work on me. It didn't get me to quite smoking and it won't get me to quite using plastic bags.

I seriously object to the frame of mind that if people don't do what you want then let's just get the gov to make them. Extremely dangerous to go down that road.

Wow. Storm in a teacup, anyone?

 Madcat87 wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:

Proud to say I'm still using the same green canvas bags I bought many years ago and only get plastic bags when I've used up my current stash in garbage bins around the house.

They're also useful for stuff besides shopping, they're surprisngly good at carrying booze to parties.

Also my experience, although the last three years or so I've been stuffing most of my purchases in my backpack unless I'm shopping for a party. Bags don't work so well when biking.