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Coteaz leading a 10 man terminator squad with psybolts and 2x psycannons is a beat stick and a half. I am not going to run expensive ass powered armour troops when a heldrake can come on and cook an entire unit, forget about placement to mitigate the template that damn vector strike is AP3.

Nice part about Coteaz and the terminators is that he opens up cheapass acolyte melta henchmen in psybacks or just hoofing it around the board.

Coteaz 100pts

10x Terminators w/ 2x Psycannon and Psybolt Ammo (mix and match weapons for flavor)

12x Acolytes w/ 3x Melta Gun and Razorback w/ Psybolt Ammo 128pts
12x Acolytes w/ 3x Melta Gun and Razorback w/ Psybolt Ammo 128pts
12x Acolytes w/ 3x Melta Gun and Razorback w/ Psybolt Ammo 128pts
12x Acolytes w/ 3x Melta Gun and Razorback w/ Psybolt Ammo 128pts
12x Acolytes w/ 3x Melta Gun and Razorback w/ Psybolt Ammo 128pts

If you want to feed models to heldrakes why not make them cheapass acolytes instead of 20pt strikers.

12 guys with melta's and a razorback?

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

25%? 2+ is exactly twice as good as 3+. (one chance to fail against two chances to fail on a roll.)

And if you keep the swords on the termies, they are 4++ in close combat. A 5 man squad can fire 8 shots of rending psycannon even when moving about.
I run a lot of Strike Squads, but only because my troop choices usually aren't my bruisers. If they were, I'd run termies all day erry day.

Personally, I'd rather have pods for dropping. I have, incredibly, never rolled a hit when deepstriking. (I know, it's one chance in three, right? It's incredible.)

Terminators cost exactly twice as much as strike squads, so for a given points value they have half the firepower. Against non-AP3 weapons they have exactly the same survival rate (where save is balanced by number of wounds) and against AP2 they have about the same survival rate (if the strikes can find cover)

And against template/blast/large blast they are fewer targets with further between them.
And they are still 4++ in cc while strikes in the same situation are no saves (if a termie has to take the special save, the strike will have to aswell.) So again, they bring more survivability at a cost of attacks.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
and terminators cannot have two psycannons at five men. Paladin can, terminators cannot.

true, my bad. They still have Relentless though. That still has to be brought into the equation.
They also have certain cheaper weapon choices. Like free halberds.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
The only clear advantage is survival against AP3 shots, and whilst there are a number of those (including the ever annoying Helldrake) the advantages of the strikes mean that terminators would really only be taken for fluff reasons.

As you can see above, I disagree.
But I'll agree that they are situational. I can't really say one is clearly the superior choice over the other. I think they both have situations they excel at. It does largely depend on who you are facing.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:

Grey Knights don't have drop pods.

... I know. Thus "I'd rather have pods." The discussion was that GK can drop without pods and it was painted up as something great.
I always scatter, so dropping is very scary for me.

 Blaggard wrote:
(5/6)/(4/6) = 1.25
(4/6)/(5/6) = 0.8

Depends which way you want to throw the maths but it's either 20% or 25%.

That's the same math, just adding or subtracting.
It's also the wrong math for calculating efficiancy in this case.

1/3rd is exactly half as good as 1/6th. 2+ will save twice as many soldiers as 3+. It will not save 25% more. It will save 100% more.
if 6 soldiers have to take a save on 3+, statistically 2 will die. If 6 have to take a save on 2+, statistically 1 will die.
I can't think of any more ways of making this clear.

Ai that's correct. Was showing the maths for the "25%" comment above mine which showed disbelief in it. Right maths to prove that maths but wrong maths in this situation.

 Griddlelol wrote:
Sorry, in what world is a 2+ save 25% more durable than a 3+ save?

5 is 25% more than 4.

 BryllCream wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:
Sorry, in what world is a 2+ save 25% more durable than a 3+ save?

5 is 25% more than 4.

But we're not ascending to an infinite number, we're descending towards a constant.
Your example, in the form you put it, should, if you still need to do it like that, be "2 is 100% more than 1."
As that better shows the difference between the two saves.

So, throwing out silly math aside and remembering the several advantages to terminators, there are some soft things to consider as well, like how terminators look way cooler, and how it's cheaper to put together a terminator army, and easier to paint. And terminator-based armies make the most out of special characters like thawn and draigo, and special characters/special rules are the only things that make GK all that good to begin with.

As some of you know, I'm an advocate of the Ghostwing, and run an all TDA core army based around Mordrak, his Ghost Knights, a Librarian w/ Homer, and two 10-man squads of GKT. Pre-6th, my Ghostwing was a wrecking ball with a very good win record. Post-6th ... well, its still a fun army to play, and can be a surprise to people that aren't prepare to deal with an army of 2+ armor saves that arrive inside their deployment zone! Thankfully, the army is flexible enough that I'm not married to only only one tactic.

SJ