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I agree with griddelol. The problem is that there isn't THAT much that differentiates a light-round assault rifle from a slug automatic or a buckshot weapon. Well, when you're talking about stopping power at least.

As such, the problem is how to differentiate between them in game terms. Given that, in reality, neither are terribly likely to do much damage outside of 100 yards, the only thing you can to is some arbitrary change based on what you've already got going on in the rules.

I mean, if you were to try and do something more realistic, the lasgun would be 24" rapid fire, and the shotgun would be some sort of a weapon that was S2 out to 24", S3 from 6"-18" and S4 from 0-6", but that would be needlessly complex for a weapon that's still, well, the same as a lasgun.

As such, I think the problem with shotguns is that they're just not a necessary part of the game. There's no real reason to have them compared to other guns. Perhaps if there was some kind of thing with special ammunition, I could see it, but as is, I agree with the OP. In a world of bolters/sniper rifles/bolt pistols or lasguns... why do we even need this weapon?

 Ailaros wrote:


As such, I think the problem with shotguns is that they're just not a necessary part of the game. There's no real reason to have them compared to other guns. Perhaps if there was some kind of thing with special ammunition, I could see it, but as is, I agree with the OP. In a world of bolters/sniper rifles/bolt pistols or lasguns... why do we even need this weapon?

The conundrum is that they're a holdover from 2nd ed, where they were actually decently good. You had the option of scatter shot, which was a strength 3 small blast, or a solid shot that was str 4 and knocked their target over, forcing them to spend next turn getting up. Which was FANTASTIC.

The real problem is not conceptual (after all, we can assume that shotguns being used in the future are future-shotguns and therefore awesome), but rules-related. As someone already said, the 5thed rules for rapid fire made giving shotguns to Marine Scouts a real consideration. Now, without the ability to charge on an outflank, and With the ability to move my scouts and still fire their boltguns past 12", shotguns are an option without an advantage.

 Ailaros wrote:
why do we even need this weapon?

They do have a niché role though. Demo vets with shotguns have a slim chance of taking a wound off an MC before they charge in with melta-bombs. It's a very slim chance, but it's there. I also put shotguns on my Vet sergeants. An extra precision shot at 12" and an extra overwatch shot is quite nice. Although that would be entirely irrelevant if the sergeant could take a lasgun...

Edit: If IG shotguns could only be taken for sergeants but were Str:4 like the astartes shotguns, maybe for a 1pt upgrade, then I'd take them on every single sergeant every day.

Shotguns would be the perfect weapon for running guard infantry squads into close combat, but they don't get the option, sadly.

But they wouldn't even be perfect then. I'm going to give my assaulty guard the chance to kill themselves out of a close combat with an assault weapon, all while no longer being able to take advantage of first rank fire.

reading this makes me realize how little you people know about firearms, not to mention what weapons you want to bring into a warzone, I would never trade a shotgun for my C7 (standard issue rifle). My shotgun is a tool used for breaching. Only in a emergency would I use it as a offensive weapon.

I think it's adorable that you consider 40k players should know about real weapons. There is no reason to understand how the minutae work unless you use them on a regular basis. Just like there's no real reason to know why different weapons are different.
We're talking about a game, not real life. I'm sure plenty of people on here know more about different niche topics than you do. It just so happens not to be guns.

Sorry to say but shotguns may be one weapon they did get right in the rules. At very close range, against unarmored flesh targets they would be fine. But they are easily defeated by even the most rudimentary armour. Even 12 guage slugs, arguably the most powerful shell, is stopped by a pistol rated bullet resistant vest. I think the best idea offered so far is the +1BS when using shotguns. S3, AP- represents the shotgun perfectly.

 Ailaros wrote:
But they wouldn't even be perfect then. I'm going to give my assaulty guard the chance to kill themselves out of a close combat with an assault weapon, all while no longer being able to take advantage of first rank fire.

That is a pretty annoying possibility with the rules. I wonder if a system where assault weapons and overwatch could be resolved after charge and pile-in movement and before close combat wouldn't be better.

That said, it would still be pretty much superfluous next to pistols.

+1 bs within half distance. 18" range for marine, 12 for guardsmen. All you need. BS5 effective vet guardsmen would be very nice even with S3. When an enemy is within 20m, its quite easy to hit them with a shotgun

When shotguns were JUST an option for IG, they filled a role in the game .They made sense and no one paid them much notice.(Str 3 assault weapon instead of a str 3 rapid fire weapon.)

THEN someone thought SM scouts would look cool with shotguns.And this did not really work in game as SM scouts had Str 4 weapons.
So they made SM shotguns Str 4 and since then all the arguments have been going on and on and on...

In short what looks cool does not always work in game , and can cause lots of problems for game play/balance.

Shotguns, especially space shotguns, are cool but making them work in current edition 40k seems to be a nightmare.

Leave them to Necromunda I say.

 Mumbles883 wrote:
reading this makes me realize how little you people know about firearms, not to mention what weapons you want to bring into a warzone, I would never trade a shotgun for my C7 (standard issue rifle). My shotgun is a tool used for breaching. Only in a emergency would I use it as a offensive weapon.

C7? So Canadian military I take it. The shortly is currently used mainly for breaching because modern fights have been happening at a much longer range then times past. Current ave engagement is like 300m. Times past, it wasn't. The Germans hated the m97 during WW1. Are said to have executed any caught with one.

Trench warfare greatly reduces engagement ranges. With the grim dark mishmash setting of 40k trench warfare is almost a given. 40k is not just futuristic SciFi. Its retro warfare with lasers.

Because shotguns are not actually a terribly good weapon in military usage?

Lanrak wrote:
When shotguns were JUST an option for IG, they filled a role in the game .They made sense and no one paid them much notice.(Str 3 assault weapon instead of a str 3 rapid fire weapon.)

THEN someone thought SM scouts would look cool with shotguns.And this did not really work in game as SM scouts had Str 4 weapons.
So they made SM shotguns Str 4 and since then all the arguments have been going on and on and on...

In short what looks cool does not always work in game , and can cause lots of problems for game play/balance.

Space Marine Scouts have had shotguns as an option all the way back to 2nd ed (so we're talking 1995). I suppose it's possible they took shotguns Away from SM Scouts between 3rd and 4th ed and then gave them back. When I was playing 2nd ed both SM Scouts and Guard had them.

Bludbaff wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
Doom's shotgun (yes, that Doom) it's actually fairly accurate, the pellets have a small cone of fire and you can do quite a bit of damage to enemies far away. Of course, then the Super Shotgun came out with Doom 2, and that's probably what most people think of when they think of "shotgun"

Yeah. Sawed-off shotguns are wildly illegal (and useless for military purposes), but they get a lot of play in pop culture because they look so awesome. The spread on a normal-barreled shotgun, as mentioned above, really just lets you be slightly off-target and still hit. Rather than a template, a better way to represent it would be to count as +1 BS or twin-linked or something.

<sigh>

A short-barreled shotgun (what most think of as a "sawed-off" shotgun), having a barrel less than 18" with an overall length of under 26" is legal in many states, provided that federal rules are followed (tax stamp paid for, background check, etc). Short-barreled shotguns are also the most commonly used shotguns in the U.S. military, although only for door breaching and not for actually shooting at an enemy. They do NOT, contrary to popular belief, have a much greater spread than a longer barreled shotgun. Greater spread is obtained through the use of various chokes (greater or lesser constriction on shot exiting, located at the muzzle), and without such devices typical shot spread is about an inch per yard of distance to target.

On a related note, shotguns should only ever have an AP value if they're firing slugs, and even that shouldn't be better than a 6. Maybe a 5, I need to look at what each level is equivalent to, again.

It's less a range issue with a shotgun (which is, admittedly, atrocious compared to any weapon other than a handgun) and more a stopping-power issue.

A shotgun in a military setting is a worst-of-all-worlds situation. Its shot-scatter does not cover enough area at any range to be worthwhile, and is utterly useless against any kind of body armor or most cover. It can, depending on shot-type, even fail to penetrate drywall. Anything stronger is a show-stopper. The slugs can't compete with the range of an assault rifle, and suffer armor penetration issues as well.

The shotgun's larger size presents retention issues in CQC, as it's far easier for an adversary to gain hold of the weapon than compared to a handgun. This somewhat mitigates its function as a defensive/close-quarters weapon.

However, against unarmored targets in trench, jungle, or urban warfare theaters, where engagements are often at 100m or less, their only real limitation is slow reload time and low ammunition capacity. In these settings, though, with proper ballistic payloads, they can be highly effective.

They're especially effective aboard ships, as the narrow hallways offer little cover and the metal walls will not be penetrated by shots, thus posing no risk to the vessel itself. You can also ricochet shot and slugs off the surfaces to hit targets behind barricades or cover (though not as easily as the movies make this appear...still, some chance is better than no chance).

The reason they exist in 40K is because, hey, shotguns look and sound intimidating, they are featured in war movies fairly often, and they're pretty much an iconic "badass" weapon.

 HisDivineShadow wrote:

 Mumbles883 wrote:
reading this makes me realize how little you people know about firearms, not to mention what weapons you want to bring into a warzone, I would never trade a shotgun for my C7 (standard issue rifle). My shotgun is a tool used for breaching. Only in a emergency would I use it as a offensive weapon.

C7? So Canadian military I take it. The shortly is currently used mainly for breaching because modern fights have been happening at a much longer range then times past. Current ave engagement is like 300m. Times past, it wasn't. The Germans hated the m97 during WW1. Are said to have executed any caught with one.

Trench warfare greatly reduces engagement ranges. With the grim dark mishmash setting of 40k trench warfare is almost a given. 40k is not just futuristic SciFi. Its retro warfare with lasers.

In close quarters, I would absolutely take an AR over any shotgun you could hand me, if given the choice. Trench shotguns were absolutely great in WWI, in close range trench warfare. They were also used against troops who were armed, in the vast majority, with long and unwieldy bolt action rifles.

shade1313 wrote:
Because shotguns are not actually a terribly good weapon in military usage?

Great for military usage. Just for a nitch role. We used them on ship (as did my father before me) in case of boarding actions. With bulkheads so close together, you could clear a passageway just fine. It was close quarters, and worked really well for what we needed.
A police officer told me they use their shotguns only because the sound of a shotgun pumping is one almost everyone knows, and everyone is scared of being on the wrong end of.
I keep a shotgun under the bed in case someone breaks in, for two reasons 1) The first time my now ex slept over, the handgun on the headboard scared her. 2) Anything else I have to worry about a round passing thru the window, and into someone else's house. With a shotgun I feel a lot safer in not hitting a neighbor.
And the same reason I keep one for the house, is the same reason it should not work in 40K, where a Marine can take a bolter round that would turn a human or Ork to mist. His armor should stop a shotgun. When an Ork, or a Human in this game can take a shotgun with no effect, the reason to carry it seems pointless. At least with lasguns, you do not have to carry ammo (just the power packs, that can be recharged with as little effort as tossing into a campfire.) You have range and it is light and easy to make.

 RicBlasko wrote:

And the same reason I keep one for the house, is the same reason it should not work in 40K, where a Marine can take a bolter round that would turn a human or Ork to mist. His armor should stop a shotgun. When an Ork, or a Human in this game can take a shotgun with no effect, the reason to carry it seems pointless. At least with lasguns, you do not have to carry ammo (just the power packs, that can be recharged with as little effort as tossing into a campfire.) You have range and it is light and easy to make.

They are space shotguns from the year 40k though.

 RicBlasko wrote:

shade1313 wrote:
Because shotguns are not actually a terribly good weapon in military usage?

Great for military usage. Just for a nitch role. We used them on ship (as did my father before me) in case of boarding actions. With bulkheads so close together, you could clear a passageway just fine. It was close quarters, and worked really well for what we needed.
A police officer told me they use their shotguns only because the sound of a shotgun pumping is one almost everyone knows, and everyone is scared of being on the wrong end of.
I keep a shotgun under the bed in case someone breaks in, for two reasons 1) The first time my now ex slept over, the handgun on the headboard scared her. 2) Anything else I have to worry about a round passing thru the window, and into someone else's house. With a shotgun I feel a lot safer in not hitting a neighbor.
And the same reason I keep one for the house, is the same reason it should not work in 40K, where a Marine can take a bolter round that would turn a human or Ork to mist. His armor should stop a shotgun. When an Ork, or a Human in this game can take a shotgun with no effect, the reason to carry it seems pointless. At least with lasguns, you do not have to carry ammo (just the power packs, that can be recharged with as little effort as tossing into a campfire.) You have range and it is light and easy to make.

There's a big caveat to the statement that they're "great for military usage", and that's that they're only great in some very narrowly defined conditions, such as said boarding actions.

Getting into a big tangent that veers wildly away from 40k, any shotgun round that's worth using in home defense (so, not birdshot or the like) will penetrate sheetrock walls just as much as your average 5.56 round, or pistol, with far less certainty over where it'll go once it's past that wall and the ones after it.

shade1313 wrote:

 RicBlasko wrote:

shade1313 wrote:
Because shotguns are not actually a terribly good weapon in military usage?

Great for military usage. Just for a nitch role. We used them on ship (as did my father before me) in case of boarding actions. With bulkheads so close together, you could clear a passageway just fine. It was close quarters, and worked really well for what we needed.
A police officer told me they use their shotguns only because the sound of a shotgun pumping is one almost everyone knows, and everyone is scared of being on the wrong end of.
I keep a shotgun under the bed in case someone breaks in, for two reasons 1) The first time my now ex slept over, the handgun on the headboard scared her. 2) Anything else I have to worry about a round passing thru the window, and into someone else's house. With a shotgun I feel a lot safer in not hitting a neighbor.
And the same reason I keep one for the house, is the same reason it should not work in 40K, where a Marine can take a bolter round that would turn a human or Ork to mist. His armor should stop a shotgun. When an Ork, or a Human in this game can take a shotgun with no effect, the reason to carry it seems pointless. At least with lasguns, you do not have to carry ammo (just the power packs, that can be recharged with as little effort as tossing into a campfire.) You have range and it is light and easy to make.

There's a big caveat to the statement that they're "great for military usage", and that's that they're only great in some very narrowly defined conditions, such as said boarding actions.

Getting into a big tangent that veers wildly away from 40k, any shotgun round that's worth using in home defense (so, not birdshot or the like) will penetrate sheetrock walls just as much as your average 5.56 round, or pistol, with far less certainty over where it'll go once it's past that wall and the ones after it.

Someone was just as vague saying they were of no use in a military usage.
As for penetrating. My neighbor across the street is 30 years or so. The one next to me on either side is about 10 yards or so, and the one behind me about 50 yards. I own 13 firearms. My 30/30 or 303 or SKS would have no trouble passing thru a window or wall and hitting one of their houses. Something like my 8 MM Mauser would be better off using as a club than trying to turn corners with it in my home. And again, the homes near by. Even a .22 would still hit their house. I was not allowed to keep the .45 or .38 on the headboard. But a shotgun, I have less worry about reaching them, less worry about going thru a wall (mine or theirs) And less worry about reaction time to fire.
And so I don't sound like a nut. My first apartment was broken into the week I moved in. I was broken into later while I was home asleep on the couch. I live in nice house with nice neighbors, and three police officers on the block and no worries about leaving my front door unlocked all the time. But I get worried from time to time because of what has happened. As for owning firearms, I grew up on a farm and went shooting often, 75% of my family were or are military, and police, a lot of us hunt and target shoot. Guns are just a normal thing for us to be around.

 RicBlasko wrote:


Someone was just as vague saying they were of no use in a military usage.
As for penetrating. My neighbor across the street is 30 years or so. The one next to me on either side is about 10 yards or so, and the one behind me about 50 yards. I own 13 firearms. My 30/30 or 303 or SKS would have no trouble passing thru a window or wall and hitting one of their houses. Something like my 8 MM Mauser would be better off using as a club than trying to turn corners with it in my home. And again, the homes near by. Even a .22 would still hit their house. I was not allowed to keep the .45 or .38 on the headboard. But a shotgun, I have less worry about reaching them, less worry about going thru a wall (mine or theirs) And less worry about reaction time to fire.
And so I don't sound like a nut. My first apartment was broken into the week I moved in. I was broken into later while I was home asleep on the couch. I live in nice house with nice neighbors, and three police officers on the block and no worries about leaving my front door unlocked all the time. But I get worried from time to time because of what has happened. As for owning firearms, I grew up on a farm and went shooting often, 75% of my family were or are military, and police, a lot of us hunt and target shoot. Guns are just a normal thing for us to be around.

Please cite for me where I said they were of no use in a military usage.