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For Power Weapons the two I have found best are the:
Power Maul: 5 [4 with a Storm Shield] S7 AP4 Attacks are brutal
Power Lance: 5 [on an assault with a Storm Shield] S6 AP3 Attacks can also be brutal.

I field one with a Power Axe and a Power Lance, that’s 6 S6 AP3 I5 Attacks and then 5 S6 AP2 I1 attacks after that if you need it.

I run a lord with SS/TH another TWC model with SS and then the rest are all bare so they get a good amount of attacks and hopefully a nice amount of rending attacks. The lord also has runic armor, saga of the bear and I think I added the necklace that makes him always hit on 3+. Expensive But Lord leads the way and takes ap1-2 shots and if theres a lot of those he passes it to the SS TWC model and then his 2+ runic armor will hopefully absorb most small arms shot.

If you read my original post, it says that the Lord will be set up with Thunderwolf, Storm Shield and Runic Armor no matter what weapon option I take.

My question is what combination of other wargear would make him most effective and preserves his Initiative 5. This rules out Power Fists, Power Axes, Frost Axes and Thunder Hammers.

This leaves a Power weapon such as a maul (useless), sword (could take a frost blade instead) or lance. The Wolf Claw which would be good but with Saga of the Beastslayer I get rerolls to wound anyway and with rending, rerolls become much better, also with no improvement to Strength, trading Rending for AP3 is questionable at best. Against rank and file, awesome, against terminators and special characters? Worthless. Since we have to account for challenges, it is better to have that chance to deal AP2 wounds than always be stuck at AP3. The Frost Blade is an interesting conundrum having the afore mentioned trade of rending for AP3 but granting increased Str. With rerolls this could mean that almost all of the characters hits will become wounds. Unfortunately, terminators and the like will still shrug them off without blinking and it is still better to take the regular CCW.

I have modeled my Wolf Lord with a chainsword as of now, but per the Wolves Codex, I could use this as a Frost Blade. I will try both in games at my FLGS and see what kind of mileage I get.

Cheers to everyone for the help.

 bocatt wrote:
If you read my original post, it says that the Lord will be set up with Thunderwolf, Storm Shield and Runic Armor no matter what weapon option I take.

My question is what combination of other wargear would make him most effective and preserves his Initiative 5. This rules out Power Fists, Power Axes, Frost Axes and Thunder Hammers.

This leaves a Power weapon such as a maul (useless), sword (could take a frost blade instead) or lance. The Wolf Claw which would be good but with Saga of the Beastslayer I get rerolls to wound anyway and with rending, rerolls become much better, also with no improvement to Strength, trading Rending for AP3 is questionable at best. Against rank and file, awesome, against terminators and special characters? Worthless. Since we have to account for challenges, it is better to have that chance to deal AP2 wounds than always be stuck at AP3. The Frost Blade is an interesting conundrum having the afore mentioned trade of rending for AP3 but granting increased Str. With rerolls this could mean that almost all of the characters hits will become wounds. Unfortunately, terminators and the like will still shrug them off without blinking and it is still better to take the regular CCW.

I have modeled my Wolf Lord with a chainsword as of now, but per the Wolves Codex, I could use this as a Frost Blade. I will try both in games at my FLGS and see what kind of mileage I get.

Cheers to everyone for the help.

I am curious as to why you think the Power Maul is “Useless”?
I am going to say it’s the AP4, but here is something to think about it.
It will wound up to T5 on 2+ and will still ID T3.
If Wounds are what you looking for I would say go with the Power Maul.
It will also penetrate most armor in the game.

For monster hunting you will have an issue with a Wolf Claw hurting T5+ even with Re-Rolls.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 bocatt wrote:
If you read my original post, it says that the Lord will be set up with Thunderwolf, Storm Shield and Runic Armor no matter what weapon option I take.

My question is what combination of other wargear would make him most effective and preserves his Initiative 5. This rules out Power Fists, Power Axes, Frost Axes and Thunder Hammers.

This leaves a Power weapon such as a maul (useless), sword (could take a frost blade instead) or lance. The Wolf Claw which would be good but with Saga of the Beastslayer I get rerolls to wound anyway and with rending, rerolls become much better, also with no improvement to Strength, trading Rending for AP3 is questionable at best. Against rank and file, awesome, against terminators and special characters? Worthless. Since we have to account for challenges, it is better to have that chance to deal AP2 wounds than always be stuck at AP3. The Frost Blade is an interesting conundrum having the afore mentioned trade of rending for AP3 but granting increased Str. With rerolls this could mean that almost all of the characters hits will become wounds. Unfortunately, terminators and the like will still shrug them off without blinking and it is still better to take the regular CCW.

I have modeled my Wolf Lord with a chainsword as of now, but per the Wolves Codex, I could use this as a Frost Blade. I will try both in games at my FLGS and see what kind of mileage I get.

Cheers to everyone for the help.

I am curious as to why you think the Power Maul is “Useless”?
I am going to say it’s the AP4, but here is something to think about it.
It will wound up to T5 on 2+ and will still ID T3.
If Wounds are what you looking for I would say go with the Power Maul.
It will also penetrate most armor in the game.

For monster hunting you will have an issue with a Wolf Claw hurting T5+ even with Re-Rolls.

I believe the Wolf Claw has been ruled out for me. Rerolls can be had through Saga, AP3 could be had in a frost blade or power sword and there is no strength increase in the Claw. Yes, the maul has it's uses but if I want an "at initiative" weapon that IDs T3, I would take a Frost Blade it may be more expensive but removes the chance of being tar pitted by anything with 3+ armor. If I wanted high strength, I would take a power fist or thunder hammer but since I don't want the Str 10 guy getting challenged and not doing his job, I have elected to put the Thunder hammer on a regular Cavalry man. I think the CCW or the Frost Blade is the best way to go for my particular Wolf Lord

Well the problems with your frost blade is indeed that it is only ap3 so if you come across anything that has a 2+ like termies your in trouble. Then if you come across anything with invulnerable saves you will still get bogged down regardless.

With the regular ccw you are hoping to get rending attacks off just for that ap2 and then if you dont any unit your attacking gets a save possibly making your lord super bogged down.

Talking about being bogged down...you're looking at killing just over 1 TAC marine per combat phase.

If you can't destroy a TAC squad, you really need to reconsider how effective your load out is. Frankly relying on rending is a pathetic waste of a wolf lord.

If you take ap3, you might as well just bring something far more cost effective. I also find it insane that you're willing to pass up on str10. The ability to ID daemon princes, wreck land raiders and laugh at plague marines.

I think it actually comes down to this:

You either take a S10 Weapon and go Last, or Go off on I5 and have a chance of giving your opponent a Save.
My answer to the lack of AP2 is don’t attack 2+ units, that what Plasma is for, Take either a Frost Blade or Power Maul and go after “Softer Targets”.

I looked at his proposed list [http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/531811.page] and he already has a TWC with a Thunder Hammer so he has the S10 out there.

As for cost effectiveness, just going with Rending Attacks is cost effective, it cost nothing. It’s not the most effective way I have seen, I would rather do it with a Wolf Guard Battle Leader than a Wolf Lord.

150pts is not an efficient, nor a potent way to kill one MEQ per phase.

I'd argue that taking a lord to kill soft targets is inefficient too. You know what else kicks those soft targets ass? Everything. GHs and BCs would rip them a new one, and they can score once they've done their job. The wolf lord is massive over kill unless you kit him for killing big scary targets. It's not even the ap2 that I think is the most important. It's the str:10. You're better off getting a wolf priest or a rune priest for those soft targets, and they can buff your army or bring highly useful assault powers too.

Okay guys, I don't know if you aren't reading, but another member of the squad is carrying a thunder hammer to avoid being singled out in challenges and killed before striking. I need a weapon THAT PRESERVES THE WOLF LORDS INITIATIVE FIVE.

And yes, the frost blade could be better, IDing T3 characters and most likely forcing them to make lots of invulns as well as chopping through marines better than anything except maybe a wolf claw but then I see all those characters out there with 2+ armor saves and I shudder to think of watching my 500 pt unit be stuck in combat with a 150 pt Company Master in Runic armor or the like for 5 turns while my Wolf Lord struggles to kill him. Or against a Terminator character who just shrugs off my attacks and then hits my Lord with the powerfist a couple times and he's dead.

And my Wolf Lord will not be engaging a tactical squad by himself. There are two other Thunderwolves with the same load out as him and one Thunderwolf with a Thunder hammer that would be dishing out Str10 AP2 hurt from behind his brothers. This would amount to a very dead tac squad very quickly.

Anpu42 wrote:I am curious as to why you think the Power Maul is “Useless”?
I am going to say it’s the AP4, but here is something to think about it.
It will wound up to T5 on 2+ and will still ID T3.
If Wounds are what you looking for I would say go with the Power Maul.
It will also penetrate most armor in the game.

1. A Power Maul is causing 1.11 Unsaved Wounds against MEQ (or anything else that has a 3+ Save and is T5 or less). A Power Sword will cause 2.67 Unsaved Wounds. So a Power Sword is equal to a Power Maul against GEQ, and is twice as effective as a Power Maul against MEQ. Considering that MEQ is the most common enemy you are likely to face, especially in a tournament...

2. There aren't a whole lot of multi-wound T3 models out there. HWT and Company Commanders/other HQs for IG are all that come readily to mind. Its a small enough number that volume of attacks more than make up for the lack of ID against T3.

Anpu42 wrote:For monster hunting you will have an issue with a Wolf Claw hurting T5+ even with Re-Rolls.

6 Attacks, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Saga of the Beast Slayer, and a Wolf Claw vs T6 and 3+ Save
6 * ((4/6) + ((1-(4/6)) * (4/6)) * ((2/6) + ((1-(2/6)) * (2/6)) = 2.96 Unsaved Wounds at AP 3; 1.98 Unsaved Wounds with a 5+ Invulnerable Save

6 Attacks, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Saga of the Beast Slayer, and a Power Maul vs T6 and 3+ Save
6 * ((4/6) + ((1-(4/6)) * (4/6)) * (4/6) * (2/6) = 1.19 Unsaved Wounds

6 Attacks, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Saga of the Beast Slayer, and a Power Fist vs T6
6 * ((4/6) + ((1-(4/6)) * (4/6)) * (5/6) = 4.44 Unsaved Wounds; 2.96 Unsaved Wounds with a 5+ Invulnerable Save

A Power Maul is 3 times worse than a Wolf Claw at killing higher toughness monsters, provided you have Saga of the Beastslayer. Most MCs are T6 and have a 3+ save. The best weapon for taking them out however is a Power Fist or a Thunder Hammer. I prefer the Thunder Hammer myself, since if you failed to slay the beast outright it will strike at the same time as you. With a Storm Shield and Eternal Warrior you have a fair chance of surviving the ordeal, so long as there isn't a Daemon Weapon involved.

bocatt wrote:I believe the Wolf Claw has been ruled out for me. Rerolls can be had through Saga, AP3 could be had in a frost blade or power sword and there is no strength increase in the Claw.

Wolf Claws are good because you can choose to re-roll To Hits or To Wounds. So with Saga of the Beastslayer you get to re-roll both your To-Hit and your To Wound. The Wolf Claw is almost always the superior choice for a Thunderwolf mounted Wolf Lord.

bocatt wrote:Yes, the maul has it's uses but if I want an "at initiative" weapon that IDs T3, I would take a Frost Blade it may be more expensive but removes the chance of being tar pitted by anything with 3+ armor. If I wanted high strength, I would take a power fist or thunder hammer but since I don't want the Str 10 guy getting challenged and not doing his job, I have elected to put the Thunder hammer on a regular Cavalry man. I think the CCW or the Frost Blade is the best way to go for my particular Wolf Lord

Spot on assessment in my book, with one exception. You don't want to throw away that Initiative 5, as its incredibly helpful against most units you'll face. The only part I disagree with is the mention of the CCW. Rending is nice to have on a normal trooper, but its pointless on an HQ that will end up in a Challenge at some point. I'd much prefer to have a Wolf Claw and guarantee AP 3 than to maybe get AP 2. Consistency is important to me. I take MotW on my Grey Hunters because it is a force multiplier and gives me many more attacks usually, with Rending as icing on the cake. On an HQ, I wouldn't want to rely on Rending in a fight. Griddlelol said it:

Griddlelol wrote:Talking about being bogged down...you're looking at killing just over 1 TAC marine per combat phase.

If you can't destroy a TAC squad, you really need to reconsider how effective your load out is. Frankly relying on rending is a pathetic waste of a wolf lord.

 Griddlelol wrote:
150pts is not an efficient, nor a potent way to kill one MEQ per phase.

I'd argue that taking a lord to kill soft targets is inefficient too. You know what else kicks those soft targets ass? Everything. GHs and BCs would rip them a new one, and they can score once they've done their job. The wolf lord is massive over kill unless you kit him for killing big scary targets. It's not even the ap2 that I think is the most important. It's the str:10. You're better off getting a wolf priest or a rune priest for those soft targets, and they can buff your army or bring highly useful assault powers too.

I think you misunderstood what I meant by “Softer Target”. I was talking about things in Power Armor like Command Squads, Sternguard or even Chosen.
I also don’t run my Thunderlords by themselves, I usually have at least a full pack of Thunderwolf Calvary with him along with 2 Wolves.
If I end up facing Terminators or a Riptide I will have some Thunderhammer or Rending Attacks happening. If I get challenged by the Thunderlord can be the one to take out the Character while the rest deal with the squad. I also usually take Melta-Bombs for thing like Dreads or high Toughness MC's.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:
150pts is not an efficient, nor a potent way to kill one MEQ per phase.

I'd argue that taking a lord to kill soft targets is inefficient too. You know what else kicks those soft targets ass? Everything. GHs and BCs would rip them a new one, and they can score once they've done their job. The wolf lord is massive over kill unless you kit him for killing big scary targets. It's not even the ap2 that I think is the most important. It's the str:10. You're better off getting a wolf priest or a rune priest for those soft targets, and they can buff your army or bring highly useful assault powers too.

I think you misunderstood what I meant by “Softer Target”. I was talking about things in Power Armor like Command Squads, Sternguard or even Chosen.

All of which are MEQ, and with a Power Maul or CCW you are likely only killing 1 model per turn with a Wolf Lord. That's not enough to force a morale check on a 5 man squad. For a paltry amount of points you can take a Wolf Claw and suddenly wipe out the unit in two rounds of combat.

cowmonaut wrote:
We both said stuff

I said like the CCW on a Wolf Guard Battle Leader, not on a Thunderlord.
As far as the Power Maul, I have been finding it very useful even vs. MEQs and even TEQs, if forces saves.
Yes there is usually one or maybe two failures, but a MoN Terminator, 4-5 Chances to fail are better than 2-3 with a Power Sword or Frost Blade.
It is all a mater taste too, I would rather force save more than ignore armor, to me there actually makes little difference at the end of the Assault Phase in my experience.

Example #1: Wolf Priest
I generally only use them with my Blood Claws/Swiftclaws/Skyclaws. As the “Power Maul” is my default weapon with them, that is were I learned to love them. I have on a regular basis beaten MEQs and TEQs in challenges. I have also killed multiple Light Vehicles and Dreadnoughts with them [usually by Glancing them to Death, but I have done it]. Now it’s not a Multi-Wound Model killer, but it keeps getting the job done.

Example #2: Wolf Guard
I also have one on my Wolf Guard with an Assault Cannon. He has in one multiple turn Assault [2-3 Assault Phases total IIRC] vs. Khorne Berserkers made 3-4 kills by himself. Most of the others were between Logan and Arjac.


I will concede that there are better Weapons for something like ignoring Armor, and Killing Vehicles normally, but it is still a good weapon. So much so that I am planning on making Stig-Wolf: Thunderwolf, Power Maul, Frost Axe.

 Anpu42 wrote:

cowmonaut wrote:
We both said stuff

Are you reading any of it though? Cause the vibe I get is that you are just discounting it without reading any of it.

 Anpu42 wrote:
I said like the CCW on a Wolf Guard Battle Leader, not on a Thunderlord.

That's still a bad decision. A WGBL with Thunderwolf Mount costs 115 points base. The only difference in stats? One higher Initiative and one higher Leadership. That's it. The reason for the WGBL would be to fill your required HQ choice and to get another special weapon in the TWC unit. Otherwise, taking 2 TWC models would be a better buy.

Not buying a close combat weapon for a WGBL or Wolf Lord is just, well, dumb.

 Anpu42 wrote:
As far as the Power Maul, I have been finding it very useful even vs. MEQs and even TEQs, if forces saves

Who cares? What is important is how many failed saves you cause. By virtue of being AP 3, a Power Sword performs better against MEQ than a Power Mace. That's just the cold hard facts. You can't argue them, because they just are.

Against TEQ or anything else with a 2+ save, yea sure. The Power Mace will perform marginally better (Sword's 0.33 vs Mace's 0.42). So congratulations, you are trading off a 240% increased efficiency (!) in killing MEQ for a 9% increase in killing TEQ. If you cannot understand how that is a stupidly bad decision then the conversation is over as there is no help for you.

A Power Sword kills 2 MEQ for every 0.83 MEQ killed by a Power Mace. A Power Mace kills 0.42 TEQ for every 0.33 TEQ killed by a Power Sword. These are the simple facts. Your own argument is completely counter to how reality is.

Do yourself a favor and read this article on why your anecdotal evidence is completely moot. Anecdotal evidence is a logical fallacy. It can be used to illustrate a point, but can't be used as evidence of a fact in of itself. In a game of chance, all we can count on is the mathematical probability of something happening. The Power Mace argument (much like the Frost Axe argument we recently had) has very clear mathematics that you simply can't argue with.

Math can be wrong or it can fail to take everything into account, but we're dealing with a very specific question here: Which weapon kills more of enemy X most reliably. The numbers are very, very clear. Its laughably one sided.

On an Infantry model, a Power Mace is great at killing GEQ or something that always has an Invulnerable Save. Those are the only two circumstances it beats out any of the other weapons. But on a Thunderwolf model? Your base Strength is higher than the Infantry model's, so things change. The Frost Blade, while being more expensive, becomes the better buy. It performs just as well as the Power Mace against 99% of the same targets, but then also performs superior even to the other Power Weapon options against MEQ.

And that 1% of targets? A Thunderwolf model with Frost Blade is marginally worse than one with a Power Mace against a T6 model that also has a 2+ save or always uses its Invulnerable Save (thinking Daemons mostly). A model with T7+ its worse than as well, but again it also has to have a 2+ save or always use the same Invulnerable Save. There's like 2-3 models in the game that meet the criteria necessary to make the Power Maul a better buy on a Thunderwolf.

For a Thunderwolf model you have some bad choices you can make: Power Maces, Power Lances (if you had Hit & Run, maybe. But you don't and you are going to suck worse than a Power Mace in the subsequent rounds), and Frost Axes. Will they do stuff sometimes? Yes. Yes they will. But they are never the best option if you want to get the most bang for your buck.

I regularly play against this type of build, and by far the most irritating combo is the Storm Shield and Powerfist, along with Saga of the Bear. The Hammer on one guy isn't worth it. Also if you didn't know, they FAQ'd the Fist to be only 10pts.

That is incorrect phantommaster. The part of the FAQ with the Power Fist costing 10 points is the part where they added Frost Blades and Frost Axes for models in TDA. For a Wolf Lord and Wolf Guard Battle Leader in TDA a Power Fist already cost 10 points. It still costs 25 points for a model in Power or Runic armor (which a Thunderwolf mounted Wolf Lord would be in).

cowmonaut wrote:
That is incorrect phantommaster. The part of the FAQ with the Power Fist costing 10 points is the part where they added Frost Blades and Frost Axes for models in TDA. For a Wolf Lord and Wolf Guard Battle Leader in TDA a Power Fist already cost 10 points. It still costs 25 points for a model in Power or Runic armor (which a Thunderwolf mounted Wolf Lord would be in).

Ahh, OK I do apologise, I'll bring this up to my friend

Are Wolf Lords on Thunderwolfs a reasonable HQ or are they only fluffy choices? I´m about to get one with a thunderwolve escort of 3 guys. Is that unit big enough to be a threat throughout the game? Do you run the regular thunderwolv cavalry barebones because of rending or do you kit em out expensively?

I'm not convinced that TWC are competitive. They're too expensive to be. You pretty much have to kit them out with storm shields or you're looking at a lot of dead TWC.

The Lord with the TWC for some Los shenanigans is ok. I've had some success, but compared to bringing a rune priest or wolf priest and mor grey hunters, they're weak.

But they are more then just dead weight in an environment that is not die-hard competetive? That´s good enough for me

"Thunderwolf Lords" are expensive but viable HQ choices. They can take on pretty much anything the game has to offer and stand a good chance of walking away. Usually when you take them however, because of the points invested in them, they become central to the entire army list build. 4 models on Thunderwolves are a threat that have to be put down quickly. Particularly if you have at least one Power Fist and a few Storm Shields.

I most commonly see TWC run as either a unit of 3 (with 1 Storm Shield and 1 Power Fist for 205 points) or a full on 5 man unit (with 2 Storm Shield and 1 Power Fist for 335 points). Wolf Lords tend to either fall into the Wolf Claw & Storm Shield (215+ points with no Saga) or Power Fist & Storm Shield (255+ points; Saga of the Bear is almost mandatory on a Wolf Lord that has an Unwieldy weapon).

So you are looking at nearly 600 points top side, and 420 points on the low end. That's a lot of points, so it really defines your army list.


I tend to stray from where most of the pack goes. If I take them, I'm only spending 170 points on my TWC and 170 on a WGBL (if I bother taking him). With only a Storm Shield on the WGBL, and only a Sagaless WGBL instead of a Wolf Lord, the unit is a little more vulnerable to enemy shooting and the scarier close combat oriented units. For me, the TWC are used in two ways:

a) A rapid response/counter charge unit that rides to the rescue of any Grey Hunters that got hit by the enemy.
b) A rapid response unit that focuses on clearing out basic enemy troops from Objectives while my special weapon toting Grey Hunters focus on the scarier units with shooting followed by close combat.

I tend to avoid any unit that is large and faster than Initiative 4 unless I have a WGBL, in which case I just avoid the ones that are Initiative 6+. I also make use of some tactics to keep my TWC safe from enemy shooting. Be it sticking to Area Terrain, using Storm Caller, Rhinos, Reserving (less so now), or just my Drop Pod bound Grey Hunters. Anything I can do to distract the enemy from my TWC for a turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
TWC are a competitive unit, but army lists that focus too many points into them are not competitive. They were in 5E, but its a different game now and its more worth trying to take 50-60 Grey Hunters usually.

Okay so I think it's just come down to swapping the Thunder Hammer and Frost Blade/wolf claw so that the wolf lord has saga of the bear and is toting the Thunder Hammer, that way he can smack down ANYONE in a challenge while the two regular guys with rending and the Str 6 AP3 frost blade carrier can whack their way through the rank and file. I also threw Melta bombs on the Guy with the Storm shield so he could help out against walkers and monstrous creatures.

So a unit like
Wolf Lord - Thunderwolf, Runic Armor, Storm Shield, Thunder Hammer, Saga of the Bear

Thunderwolf Raider with CCW, Storm Shield and Melta bombs
Thunderwolf Raider with CCW and bolt pistol
Thunderwolf Raider with Frost Blade and bolt pistol

Sounds good. Though I question the Meltabombs given all the Rending

cowmonaut wrote:
Sounds good. Though I question the Meltabombs given all the Rending

AV14

Thunder Hammer on the Wolf Lord

I would say its a solid build, I like it.