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Big P wrote:Not sure thats wise... Wouldnt want to inflict anymore proper history on you!
But judging by Craftfelds other post on the SS Flak Replacement Unit, he seems to be interested in 'pure history'... You might not be, but perhaps consider the possibility that he is?

He was interested, but as an obvious beginner he wasn't terribly good at interpreting his sources though. You for your part, unfamiliar with the material he was using failed to spot this but still insisted on telling someone from the internet they were wrong. If your "proper history" drives the inexperienced back to off 40k exactly what purpose does it serve?

Big P wrote:So what of crimes committed during their 'combat' history?

Why should it mention them...

First of all, who is 'people'? Secondly why do war crimes stop at division level? Do I have to mention a war crime that occurred after the period I'm playing, and if so to whom exactly? Just my opponent or everyone in the room? Does the barman count for these purposes when I go for a mid game pint? What if 'my' division was attached to the other division that committed the war crime but wasn't involved in the war crime itself. What if my company or platoon was part of the division but not the same company/platoon that committed the war crime, is being part of the same division equal culpability?

In short, maybe I'm a better judge of these things than some guy from the internet having a somewhat better idea of who my audience is than 'you' do. 'You' in this instance being anyone who thinks these things MUST be mentioned.

For my part I think that if you know of war crimes (or similar) that can be related to your toy soldiers it would be advisable to have thought out an opinion on the subject before you expose them to other people. I would probably wait until someone else brought up the subject but YMMV. I'd avoid the Tolkien 'because they were there' excuse if you can.

I have found that if done historically and in proper taste, playing armies/divisions that had bad elements is educationally beneficial. It's very easy to say "The Waffen SS, Japanese soldiers that engaged in cannibalism and Russian soldiers that raped women in Berlin were monsters--and that's why they did it". And yes, I realize there were British/Americans that engaged in war crimes as well.

However, if one reads deeper into the history of the units/armies/personalities involved--it starts to give you some perspective on the nature of nationalism/tribalism/effect of long duration pressure--and how we all have a little of the "Lucifer Effect" (A terrific book by the Stanford prison experiment sociologist) in us. And understanding that will help us all prevent crimes of such nature in the future.


Now, on the other hand, if someone creates an army celebrating such divisions/armies--well that's an entirely different matter. That said, unless someone gives me reason to pause, I do not assume they are doing so. I don't expect the Japanese player across from me is celebrating units that were involved in Nanking---but simply playing a historical representation of Imperial Japan during WW2.



Mod Hat Engaged--Keep the war jokes out of this thread and if you pause before hitting submit---questioning if you are stepping over the line--you likely are.

MarsNZ wrote:


I've come across a few like you in my years playing SS. Glad you people are the minority. Waffen SS were not universally war criminals, they were the elite formation of the german army pre-war and as such were attractive to young men wanting to fight alongside the best (the motivation for many 101st E-co. vets IIRC). After the war they were branded paramilitary (they weren't, they were a branch of the military) whereas Soviet partisans (who were VERY MUCH paramilitary and who committed awful atrocities) were not. I'm not saying the SS come off smelling like roses but this idiotic oversimplifying of things is foolish and, sadly, rather typical amongst the British who can't seem to get over that war that happened over 70 years ago. You claim that SS (i assume universally speaking here - you don't specify) 'set out with planned purpose to exterminate millions'. How pray tell is this possible? The Waffen SS were founded in the mid-1930s and the Final Solution was dreamed up in 1942.

You may wanna get ya facts straight.

The Waffen-SS (, Armed SS) was created as the armed wing of the Nazi Party's Schutzstaffel

And as for not involved with the concentration camps...

3. SS-Panzergrenadier-Division Totenkopf and 3. SS-Panzer-Division Totenkopf, was one of the 38 divisions fielded by the Waffen-SS during World War II. Prior to achieving division status, the formation was known as Kampfgruppe Eicke. The division is infamous due to its insignia and the fact that most of the initial enlisted soldiers were SS-Totenkopfverbände (SS concentration camp guards), and as such is popularly referred to as the "Death's Head Division". They participated in several known war crimes.

Ah you actually stating that people like Dirlewanger were elite troops? Kaminiski? Handschar?


The Waffen-SS were not part of the Wehrmacht, but came under tactical control by Oberkommando der Wehrmacht at the outbreak of war.

They were not all 'elite', not even pre-war. I dont think anyone said they were all war criminals, but you make want to check the facts before making such comments.

Its fantasy like this that just reinforces my point... People dont bother to read, just watch the History Channel and believe the same old propaganda that Geobbels was trotting out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 George Spiggott wrote:

Big P wrote:Not sure thats wise... Wouldnt want to inflict anymore proper history on you!
But judging by Craftfelds other post on the SS Flak Replacement Unit, he seems to be interested in 'pure history'... You might not be, but perhaps consider the possibility that he is?

He was interested, but as an obvious beginner he wasn't terribly good at interpreting his sources though. You for your part, unfamiliar with the material he was using failed to spot this but still insisted on telling someone from the internet they were wrong. If your "proper history" drives the inexperienced back to off 40k exactly what purpose does it serve?

You aint allowed to inform someone of something out of fear it may drive them back to 40k?

I will remember that next time someone asks for advice on what colour to paint a tank...

I was merely trying to offer some help to someone. Apologies if thats not what was wanted, merely trying to help.

I got a question,why are you hinting at Himmler... I Play SS because they ae Kewl, Ever hear of NEO NAzis?Or JAke and Elwood? So what it is Fow ,you people kinda ruin it for me.. With this crap, i have over 15 plus servivemen in my family, We Inveded on d day, both of my grandfathers landed,

like i said just game..No ww2 politics...I have family that fought on both sides.. so i feel as a game forum the poltics of that time should be elsewhere.

Fair enough, lets agree to disagree and leave it as a 'game'. .

My Grandfathers didnt land on D-Day... One landed in France in 1939. He was there a bit before D-Day. Though he did make a sharp exit via Dunkirk... The other came over after D-Day and mortared his way to Berlin.

MarsNZ wrote:

 Aldramelech wrote:
Political BS? This has nothing to do with Politics, it has to do with Historical Fact.

The SS form an important part of WW2 History, so is it right to have them on your gaming table? Yes, I believe it is.

Is it OK to decorate your carry case with the symbol of an SS Unit? NO it most certainly is not, nor is it OK to use dice with these symbols either. This above everything else is a matter of having some common sense and having a little taste.

Bad things happen in war, and many bad things were done, some out of practical necessity and for the greater good.

The SS is an illegal paramilitary organisation that waged a campaign of terror and genocide and was recruited and trained for that purpose (That is the legal judgement of the international Court). These men volunteered (yes I know people were conscripted into the SS, but they were the minority) and had no doubts as to what that meant and what would be asked of them. Many of them alive today and recently deceased were and are not in the slightest apologetic about what they had done.

To carpet bomb a city is not a nice thing to do, but not illegal. To drop an atomic weapon is not a nice thing to do, but again there is no law against it. Allowing your troops "off the leash" and to plunder and rape is reprehensible at best.

BUT. To undertake to murder a complete race of people, men, women and children is illegal, immoral and in a totally different league, in fact it is a unique crime in human history.
To set out with the planned purpose to exterminate millions of human beings, not as a by product of an action but as the reason for it is monstrous beyond all reason.

Many, and when I say many we are talking thousands, members of the Waffen SS at some time in their service either spent time at the camps or in a special action group and even when in a "normal" military unit still managed to murder innocent people and POW's. There are those who say "But my unit didn't do any of that", trust me, the entire SS is tainted and there are no "safe" units you can you use and claim are "The good guys". The SS were bad, period.

If you want to think that the SS are "kewl" then that is up to you, if you want to forget that your army are the worst mass murderers in history, thats up to you but CHILDREN read this forum, CHILDREN read FOW books and CHILDREN are growing up thinking that its OK to walk down the street with an SS lightning bolt on their bag!

I Have ranted about this before and I dare say I will again, while there is breath in my body I will make sure that everybody gets the whole picture

Edit: And if you are thinking that this post says anything about my personal politics, you'd be quite wrong. I have an equal loathing for communists also.

I've come across a few like you in my years playing SS. Glad you people are the minority. Waffen SS were not universally war criminals, they were the elite formation of the german army pre-war and as such were attractive to young men wanting to fight alongside the best (the motivation for many 101st E-co. vets IIRC). After the war they were branded paramilitary (they weren't, they were a branch of the military) whereas Soviet partisans (who were VERY MUCH paramilitary and who committed awful atrocities) were not. I'm not saying the SS come off smelling like roses but this idiotic oversimplifying of things is foolish and, sadly, rather typical amongst the British who can't seem to get over that war that happened over 70 years ago. You claim that SS (i assume universally speaking here - you don't specify) 'set out with planned purpose to exterminate millions'. How pray tell is this possible? The Waffen SS were founded in the mid-1930s and the Final Solution was dreamed up in 1942.

And this is my point in a nutshell, if your going to rant back at me with historical fact then it might be a good idea to get your facts straight?

The Waffen SS an elite formation of the German Army? Really? Thats odd, I'll think your find that they NEVER were a part of the German Army and are famous for not being a part of the German Army. In point of fact the German Army went out of its way to make sure they never were.

Attractive to young men who wanted to fight with the best? So nothing to do with years of political indoctrination in school and the Hitler Youth, nothing to do with them being brainwashed into thinking it was their duty to fight the "International Jewish-Communist conspiricy? A young man who did not believe in these ideas FULLY didn't get to join the SS, they got rejected and told to join the Army.

After the war they were "branded" Paramilitary, they wern't they were a part of the military? You don't agree with the International Court? You think they were unfairly "branded" Paramilitaries? Well thats because they were paramilitaries, i.e an armed force that did not form a part of the countries official military organisation.

Typical British who can't forget something that happened 70 years ago? YOU THINK THAT THE DELIBRATE MURDER OF MILLIONS OF MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN SHOULD BE FORGOTTEN????????????

And this is just the cherry on the top:


You claim that SS (i assume universally speaking here - you don't specify) 'set out with planned purpose to exterminate millions'. How pray tell is this possible? The Waffen SS were founded in the mid-1930s and the Final Solution was dreamed up in 1942.

Ever read Mien Kampf? Volume 1 Published in 1925 Volume 2 Pubilshed in 1926? The Final Solution dreamed up in 1942?

Where did you go to School? I bet they are really proud of you!

"but this idiotic oversimplifying of things is foolish" What you mean like cherry picking the good bits from a Wikipedia page on a Units history and leaving all the bad stuff out? I'll leave that to the OP.

And lets finish with "I've come across a few like you" "Glad you people are the minority"

A few like you? You people in a minority? HOW F%C*ING DARE YOU! You do not know me, you do not know the places I have been and you do not know the things that I have seen, you know nothing about my hopes, fears, beliefs or anything else.

Sadly "I've come across a few like you" and "glad YOU PEOPLE are the minoirty wouldn't be out of place in 1930/40's Berlin, can't quite believe I've seen it here in 2013.

And all of the above sets out the dangers of "The SS are Kewl"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 col. krazy kenny wrote:
I got a question,why are you hinting at Himmler... I Play SS because they ae Kewl, Ever hear of NEO NAzis?Or JAke and Elwood? So what it is Fow ,you people kinda ruin it for me.. With this crap, i have over 15 plus servivemen in my family, We Inveded on d day, both of my grandfathers landed,

like i said just game..No ww2 politics...I have family that fought on both sides.. so i feel as a game forum the poltics of that time should be elsewhere.

I have no words................................

Now, can we get a Pint?

As long as I do not have to wear leather shorts, listen to Ompah music and eat sausage's with cabage.....Yeah why not.

 col. krazy kenny wrote:
Now, can we get a Pint?

Only if we can have a putsch afterwards.

FoW maybe a game but it is based (occasionally loosely) on reality and, for me at least, that does restrict (slightly) the lists that I am willing to play. You won't find me playing with any Soviet Shtraf companies nor will you find me playing a Dirlewanger Brigade list but I don't mind playing against them, assuming that my opponent isn't a blatant neo-Nazi of course. I an open to playing SS lists but I will need to do a check on the units history first.

My family has a strong Naval background and the Germans completely failed to kill any of them (the Japanese are another matter).

Aldramelech wrote:I can't even be bothered.........................

That's because you are trolling.

Aldramelech wrote:Political BS? This has nothing to do with Politics, it has to do with Historical Fact.


The SS is an illegal paramilitary organisation that waged a campaign of terror and genocide and was recruited and trained for that purpose (That is the legal judgement of the international Court).

Were you actually concerned with historical accuracy you would have pointed out that this statement is categorically false. From 1940 on the Waffen-SS was as legitimate an army as the Heer.

BUT. To undertake to murder a complete race of people, men, women and children is illegal, immoral and in a totally different league, in fact it is a unique crime in human history.
To set out with the planned purpose to exterminate millions of human beings, not as a by product of an action but as the reason for it is monstrous beyond all reason.

Ah you mean like the Heer who were right there every step of the way? Of course you did.

If you want to think that the SS are "kewl" then that is up to you, if you want to forget that your army are the worst mass murderers in history, thats up to you but CHILDREN read this forum, CHILDREN read FOW books and CHILDREN are growing up thinking that its OK to walk down the street with an SS lightning bolt on their bag!

WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!?!
No.

MarsNZ wrote: The Waffen SS were founded in the mid-1930s and the Final Solution was dreamed up in 1942.

To my knowledge the earliest reference to a "final solution" was by Theodor Herzl in 1899, "Zionism is the final solution of the Jewish question."

 AustonT wrote:



Were you actually concerned with historical accuracy you would have pointed out that this statement is categorically false. From 1940 on the Waffen-SS was as legitimate an army as the Heer.

Well you are at odds with the ruling from Nuremberg then...

Regardless of the record of individual combat units within the Waffen-SS, the entire organisation was declared a criminal organization by the International Military Tribunal during the Nuremberg Trials, except conscripts, who were exempted from that judgement due to being forcibly mobilised

It doesnt matter whether it was an army or not (and it was never a part of the Heer) the tribunals at Nuremberg ruled that it was a criminal organisation. Whether you regard those trials and rulings as legitimate is another discussion altogether... As is whether the Heer, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine should have been treated the same.

I shall leave my final words on the subject to an actual member of the Waffen-SS;

Once again I cite from one of the letters I recieved from SS-Sturmbannführer Rolf Diercks (DKiG), who passed away last February: he wrote that after the war it wasn't to difficult for him to open his eyes for the crimes of the system, including the Waffen-SS. And he believed that the the young soldiers who joined during the war - who believed in fighting the Bolsheviks - should have realized after the war that - as soldiers under the Sigrunen - "they were part of the organization that was the motor behind the racial madness and the imperialistic "Germano-mania" of the Third Reich."

Thank you P, as always you hit it right on the head.

As a german FoW Player i can tell you that even here people are able to differentiate game and reality. All of us here were indoctrinated to immediately lower their heads and be concerned the moment you hear "SS". That being said we have some SS Players in our gaming group and no one has a problem with it. We also dont tend to talk about their history but sometimes it occurs and ends in a healthy discussion or some anecdotes from people they heard from their grand parents etc.

That being said i wouldnt play someone that is boasting about how awesome his nazi guys were and how they were superior to others while not talking about their crimes. I would on the other side have absolutely no problem playing against someone fielding SS and just play the game.

Historical context is important for the game but theres no reason to feel especially good or bad when fielding a certain unit.

Thanks Mywik, good post. I'm not questioning whether someone should play with the SS, they form an important part of many battles and I have no problem with them being on the table if the historical scenario calls for it.

My problem, and the cause of this discussion is that the OP copy and pasted "The good bits" from the Wiki page on this unit
when posting a link to the page would have been so much better. Page contains the "Full" picture and what worries me when people pick and choose which part of the history they want to present to people is that the SS are becoming some ultra cool faction and are not seen as any worse then a dark Space Marine Chapter.

This is real history, not "fluff".

 Aldramelech wrote:
Thanks Mywik, good post. I'm not questioning whether someone should play with the SS, they form an important part of many battles and I have no problem with them being on the table if the historical scenario calls for it.

My problem, and the cause of this discussion is that the OP copy and pasted "The good bits" from the Wiki page on this unit
when posting a link to the page would have been so much better. Page contains the "Full" picture and what worries me when people pick and choose which part of the history they want to present to people is that the SS are becoming some ultra cool faction and are not seen as any worse then a dark Space Marine Chapter.

This is real history, not "fluff".

I think the fact the op didnt include that part of their history was immediately addressed. I tend to be happy about people that step in and point such stuff out. The fact that theres almost always someone that steps in in such a moment is what we should appreciate.

Thing is if the op included the part about their crimes from the beginning we wouldnt have had a discussion about it and therefore it raised even more awareness and even more people thought about it this way. See the positives.

Fair point

Big P wrote:
So what of crimes committed during their 'combat' history?


Why should it mention them?

So people understand the type of people that they were in reality and understand the significance of those 'unambiguous' symbols on your dice.

If you want to air-brush out LAH shooting unarmed American POWs during the Bulge offensive or SS-TV shooting British POWs at La Paradis then thats your perogative, but both actions occured during or directly after combat.

I will hazard a guess as why it should mention these things.

So it informs people what they were like in reality, not some fanciful uber soldier. So that those playing learn a little about history and a little respect is shown for those 97 British soldiers who were shot after surrendering and the countless others.

Oh and so people dont forget what they were like... and that WW2 did actually happen. Its not 'fluff'.

Still not aware of any aspect of FOW within the gaming environment that allows for the committing of war crimes. As I understand it, the part of combat being 'played' doesn't concern 'the after-battle activities', no matter how soon after the fight they took place. So in an engagement history, why would we bother to list those activities? Whether they went out and shot their prisoners, or offered them chocolate bars, it's not a relevant element. I'm not sure how it translates into 'airbrushing out history' either. So if I don't list every activity that SS-Wiking performed between inception and eventual destruction, I'm airbrushing history?' How much detail must I record in order to NOT be tampering with reality? Should I make sure to note that my CO attended Bad Tolz under Debes? Or that the aufklarung squadron NCOs went on an R+R bender up the Potsdamer Platz and totally wrecked their suite at the Hotel Furstenhof?

I don't play with morons. I know what the insignia means, and so do my opponents. When my son asks what the symbols on the dice mean, I'll explain it to him. I'm not hiding it away. It's history, not pornography. In matter of fact, having those dice is the opposite of 'airbrushing', because I do understand the history behind the symbol and the item.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Big P wrote:

 AustonT wrote:



Were you actually concerned with historical accuracy you would have pointed out that this statement is categorically false. From 1940 on the Waffen-SS was as legitimate an army as the Heer.

Well you are at odds with the ruling from Nuremberg then...

Regardless of the record of individual combat units within the Waffen-SS, the entire organisation was declared a criminal organization by the International Military Tribunal during the Nuremberg Trials, except conscripts, who were exempted from that judgement due to being forcibly mobilised

It doesnt matter whether it was an army or not (and it was never a part of the Heer) the tribunals at Nuremberg ruled that it was a criminal organisation. Whether you regard those trials and rulings as legitimate is another discussion altogether... As is whether the Heer, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine should have been treated the same.

I think the key difference here is that at the time when they were fighting the Waffen SS were clearly a recognized part of the overall German military experience. They were ruled a criminal organisation at Nuremburg after the fact. In the context of the times, things are not so simple.

Whether we like it or not, the reason why so many regimes get away with such nastiness is precisely because it is they who decide what is criminal or not. Such decisions are only undone with hindsight, usually after an invasion or regime change. The SS was not the Commorra or the Yakuza. (Both criminal organisations that know they are criminal and exist to knowingly commit crime.) Nobody joined the SS believing it to be a criminal group. In matter of fact, by way of example the KriminalPolizei, tasked with investigating such crimes as rape, murder and arson, were part of the admittedly Byzantine SS 'empire', thus making the SS 'the law'. So paring it down to 'Nuremburg said they were criminals' after the fact' is a gross oversimplification of the whole situation in Germany that culminated in the Nuremburg trials.

What a load of Bollocks quite frankly.

"(Both criminal organisations that know they are criminal and exist to knowingly commit crime.)"

So how many example's of Himmler telling his own commanders "That ours is a glorious history that can never be written" and other similar quotes would you like me to dig out?

How about the first Commandant of Treblinka, sacked and demoted, why? Because he had murdered 250,000 people? No, because he wasn't careful enough to cover it up!

Standing orders should have resulted in every British airborne soldier captured at Arnhem being shot on the spot, why didn't they? Because they knew it was all over and they were about to be held to account.

The SS were always fully aware that what they were doing was wrong and took great pains to cover up their activities.

You want to use those dice and put that patch on your bag, you crack on pal, but in my opinion (and I'm entitled to it thank you very much) is that it shows poor judgement and taste at best.

There is a substantial difference between what the top of an organisation thinks and what the bottom end thinks. Or have you never bothered to notice the substantial history of people in positions of power believing they were above the law, or dictating it to suit themselves? Clearly not. Also, love how you selectively ignored the part where the SS were also the police, upholding criminal laws.

Maybe somewhere there is a magical fairytale land where laws are created for the common good by a wise gathering of sensible men with no vested self-interest at all, but it certainly wasn't Germany.

Please do show me the recruitment posters for the Waffen-SS that clearly state 'Join us, we commit crimes.' There is such a thing as historical context, and one of the most complex and difficult to comprehend periods is that in the post-Weimar period. Everyone wonders how sensible everyday folk can end up supporting 'The Nazis', Reams of academia are created about it, and most of the good material grasps that the period needs to be understood from the point of view of the people in that period, and not just run through a modern appraisal of what some wargamer thinks is 'right and moral', however sweary and abusive he gets about it. All of history should work like this. How far would we get in a study of medieval history if we couldn't grasp that Eleanor of Aquitaine wasn't old enough to smoke or have sex when she became Eleanor, Duchess of Aquitaine, and nobody alive at the time thought it a crime? Perhaps you should also consider the fact that a lot of what is now considered criminal activity by most sensible people was promoted across the world as genuine science and sensible social policy. (Eugenics for example.) Not to mention the groundbreaking idea that just because someone knows that what they do is considered criminal, does not mean they believe they are actually doing something wrong. Perhaps you should just stop generalizing the opinions, beliefs and actions of thousands of people in an organisation spanning multiple areas of responsibility? Reinhard Heydrich joined the SS because the Navy kicked him out and he needed to get paid. The SS offered an 'Officer' rank and a paypacket, and a job where he could be a character from a detective novel. Nowhere in his early biographical information is there a bit where he declares 'I want to do crimes, especially crimes against ethnic minorities.' Yet look what he ended up doing. So if the chairman of Wannsee could have a rather prosaic motivation for joining the SS, what of all the others? Who exactly was 'The SS' you speak of? Did Himmler go about sharing his 'criminal thoughts' with the lowest SS-Schutze sweeping out the latrines?

I don't own the BF patches. I never have. I've seen people cop abuse for using the old Warhammer40k bags with the eagle on because people didn't comprehend the symbol or the purpose of the bag. I'm hardly going to wander about in the street wearing swastikas and the like, because I'm hardly likely to get the chance to explain the context before AntiFa poleaxes me. Frankly your knee-jerk reaction puts you on a par with people who think that having a Swastika on the cover of their copy of the Escape from Colditz game makes them a Nazi. Do you go into a Holocaust museum and swear at the curator and accuse him of poor judgement for having cases full of 'Nazi gak'? Context pal. Context.

You need to get over yourself pal. It might even be helpful if you read the thread because clearly you have failed to understand even the basic gist of what is being said.

I have not selectively ignored anything, but as you bring it up YOU have selectively ignored the fact that the German Police was forced to become a part of the SS and that many members of that force belonged to the German resistance.

Also I suggest you re-read your post and consider what you are saying, YOU ARE OFFERING EXCUSES FOR THE F*CK%NG SS! Really, have you lost all reason in an attempt
to look clever?

You talk about criminal organisations and forget that the SS was formed in 1925 as a group of people for the specific purpose of intimidating people through the use of violence, yep a group formed to beat up people they didn't like and if that ain't a criminal organisation I don't know what is. Then lets not forget the murder of the top SA membership, oh yeah I'm quite sure new recruits thought they were joining a fine and upstanding group.

You talk about me like you know who I am and that is what I find the most irritating, you know nothing about me and I am not the kind of person who goes around accusing anybody of anything, I don't like the BMP or the EDL very much but I equally loath the Looney left as well, I don't march down the street shouting about anything, I'm middle aged and I have a job and have little time for politics or politicians.

I know exactly who YOU think I am but I'm sorry that I don't fit into your little pidgeon hole.

I do however care about history and am not prepared to see the SS rehabilitated in any way shape or form, they will never deserve it and no matter how the world changes the Murder of MILLIONS will never be right, not then, not now and not 200 years from now.

Your on my ignore list now btw, I have absolutely no wish to converse with someone who make apologies and excuses for mass murderers.

 Aldramelech wrote:
You need to get over yourself pal. It might even be helpful if you read the thread because clearly you have failed to understand even the basic gist of what is being said.

I have not selectively ignored anything, but as you bring it up YOU have selectively ignored the fact that the German Police was forced to become a part of the SS and that many members of that force belonged to the German resistance.

Also I suggest you re-read your post and consider what you are saying, YOU ARE OFFERING EXCUSES FOR THE F*CK%NG SS! Really, have you lost all reason in an attempt
to look clever?

You talk about criminal organisations and forget that the SS was formed in 1925 as a group of people for the specific purpose of intimidating people through the use of violence, yep a group formed to beat up people they didn't like and if that ain't a criminal organisation I don't know what is. Then lets not forget the murder of the top SA membership, oh yeah I'm quite sure new recruits thought they were joining a fine and upstanding group.

You talk about me like you know who I am and that is what I find the most irritating, you know nothing about me and I am not the kind of person who goes around accusing anybody of anything, I don't like the BMP or the EDL very much but I equally loath the Looney left as well, I don't march down the street shouting about anything, I'm middle aged and I have a job and have little time for politics or politicians.

I know exactly who YOU think I am but I'm sorry that I don't fit into your little pidgeon hole.

I do however care about history and am not prepared to see the SS rehabilitated in any way shape or form, they will never deserve it and no matter how the world changes the Murder of MILLIONS will never be right, not then, not now and not 200 years from now.

Your on my ignore list now btw, I have absolutely no wish to converse with someone who make apologies and excuses for mass murderers.

QFT

Telling people that in the perspective of their time the SS wasnt criminal and telling people that their doings and structure have to be seen in their context of time is nothing else than trying to justify their doings. Although i dont think that this was what ArbeitsSchu (if you tried for a german word with your nick i can tell you its missing an "h" at the end) was going for its still the unacceptable outcome of his post.

Yes... In the context of their time, the actions were criminal.

Certainly the killing of POWs contravened the Geneva Convention.

Just because a regime decides that's it ok to murder a racial grouping, it doesn't mean its not a criminal act that is ethically and morally abhorrent. Even members of the Waffen-SS regarded the behaviour of some members as criminal themselves. Dirlewanger for example.

We may as well therefore conclude that Saddam Hussein's gassing of the Kurds was not criminal as his regime allowed, or that the current mass murders in Syria are ok as the regime has sanctioned it.

Trying to justify actions by excuse of context does not remove the ethical or moral context of those actions.

Honestly, I can't say much more, I'm staggered by the comments of some that seem to border on the revisionist.

Thank goodness that 74 years ago there were people that felt differently and stood up to Nazi Germany.

Since we are on a SS kick. Does anyone have any info on the SS paras?

Please do not respond with an image only--Thanks.

Ryan

Talk about a knee-jerk reaction. Apologism? Revisionism? No, nothing of the sort. Looks like some people can't separate their feelings about criminal acts and their ability to analyse the history and causes behind those acts. Clearly in this little corner of history everybody in Germany is eeeeevil, with no other possible explanation, desire, or motivation at all. Just EEEVIL. Historians can just burn all those thousands of volumes of detailed analysis about the Third Reich, the Nazis and Germany because its all JUST because they were EVIL CRIMINALS. Give me a break.

Big P: You're mixing up 'justifying' with 'analysis'. 'Excuse' with 'explain'. Try a thought experiment. In the 1930s, a legitimate and recognised medical treatment for 'being left handed' was to tie the errant hand behind the back, and punish the person if they were caught trying to use the 'wrong' hand. IT was thought that eventually this would 'correct' the abberrant behaviour. (This is from a UK medical; textbook btw, not a German one.) . Try and put yourself into the mindset of someone who actually believes that rubbish as medical fact, and then look again at the T-4 program. It becomes a lot more obvious how Nazi ideology took root so comfortably. This is me applying a context. It is NOT me saying 'It's fine to kill disabled people. At no point have I EVER said 'It's fine that the SS committed war crimes, or anything of the sort.

Mywick: No, my nick is spelled exactly how I intend it to be spelled, as the bastardized offspring of a compound word between two languages. The German words for Work-shy, and the small wooden spring mine. (It would be missing an 'e' anyway, not an h.)

Here's the key issue. If someone spends many hours buying and painting in excruciating detail an exact as possible replica of an SS force, complete with correct period gaiters, camouflage and factory-specific Panther paint schemes, that is acceptable, because its historical. If they then take that force and play toy soldiers using a fairly unhistorical rules system, perhaps even against unhistorical opponents, that's also fine because history. But if that person then uses a dice with the same rune on it as already replicated in painstaking detail on previously mentioned miniature tanks, to play this toy soldier game for fun suddenly that person is a fool, or a borderline neo-nazi? That's just daft.

 ArbeitsSchu wrote:


Mywick: No, my nick is spelled exactly how I intend it to be spelled, as the bastardized offspring of a compound word between two languages. The German words for Work-shy, and the small wooden spring mine. (It would be missing an 'e' anyway, not an h.)

It would be missing either an "h" or an "e". Since arbeitsscheu means work-shy and arbeitsschuh is a shoe you wear at work.

Im too offended by the rest of your post to properly adress it. Therefore i simply wont since i dont think it will accomplish anything. Everything was already said on the matter. No reason to turn in circles.

Thanks for all this nice discussion...

to reveal a bit more:

A) I am german myself and to be honest it stinks that people still point the finger at me for crimes some others back in the past commited. Playing an SS Company doesnt mean I find everything cool nor does it mean that I want to place any heroics in there.

- I simply tried to tie a historical list (and yes you will find your help on the battlefront webpage with the general briefing on this specific division) and I appreciated all the help I got in getting the names and divisional support units correct. That was my aim and I got to read at least a couple of good advice here which I personally find much more of a help instead of finger pointing on historical deeds.



B) As this gets political... The post included the way the division took and mayor battles fought. That is something I feel as being relevant for the game.

- Did you guys also flamed battlefront after their release of "Devils Charge" btw ? Joachim Peiper who is featured there also was part of the SS and as far as I recall at least got trialed for war crimes....


C) What I personally do not like is that someone feels responsible of really putting myself to the knife for this post. And yes I could read it as a personal useless argument he was seeking. Is your personal hatred still that high ? If so.. you do not really learned something from history my friend.


And last but not least I love the way some of you really seem to interprete more into me what I really am....


I want to game a historical accurate list
I want to game historical engagements
I am seeking help on getting these things correct

In regards to gaming I am not interested and do not feel the necessarity to include the war crimes. Who knows history knows about the mayor war crimes. And in game related things we are talking about tactics and strategy.. that does not include apologies for crimes commited.

Thanks again for those who helped.. and thanks as well to all those who simply flamed.

craftfeld wrote:


A) I am german myself and to be honest it stinks that people still point the finger at me for crimes some others back in the past commited. Playing an SS Company doesnt mean I find everything cool nor does it mean that I want to place any heroics in there.

No one did. Point was to include their war crimes if you go for a historic Company like the one your fielding and talking about their history. Not more not less.

No one made you responsible for their crimes. Just responsible to remember and point them out when you talk about their history. Which is reasonable.

craftfeld wrote:


In regards to gaming I am not interested and do not feel the necessarity to include the war crimes. Who knows history knows about the mayor war crimes. And in game related things we are talking about tactics and strategy.. that does not include apologies for crimes commited.

Other people are interested and feel the necessity to. And they are going to point them out when you dont. Im one of them.

Thats what you and I learned

... I do not feel the need in game related terms ... and I find it more disturbing that the focus is more directed there instead of the game relevance on the list ...

... Thanks for your understanding...

craftfeld wrote:
Thats what you and I learned

... I do not feel the need in game related terms ... and I find it more disturbing that the focus is more directed there instead of the game relevance on the list ...

... Thanks for your understanding...

I think if you'd asked for list advice regarding gameplay the thread wouldve been stayed focused on that.

Its a topic where most people cant let out their feelings because it touches them.

I say it in german since you said you are german yourself.

"Toleranz ist keine Einbahnstrasse."

Good Luck with your list.