Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Rigeld - but would a landraider be "oversized", given you could loot them in the previous book?

Why not? the vehicle is a looted wagon, not Rhino. One may use whatever one wants. However, with the current meta of "I can do whatever because the rules don't tell me not to", you'll have idiots dropping larger and larger models on the table.

It all comes down to the simple fact that we do this for fun, so a jackass move like the OP has championed over 2 or 3 threads borders on TFG-land.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Rigeld - but would a landraider be "oversized", given you could loot them in the previous book?

I would think so. What you could do in a previous book is irrelevant.
But again - Rule of Cool. Just like I wouldn't expect to field my Warrior sized Hive Tyrants without my opponent's permission (since they're significantly undersized) I'd hope that someone with a Land Raider sized looted wagon would make sure it was okay and not just expect that it was okay.

I'd have a problem with using a 250pt av14 4hp model to represent a 35pt av10 3hp model for starters.

Add in the context that the OP has now started 3+ threads searching for validations to MFA his Ork army to victory. An ADL shortened so his grots can draw LoS where they normally couldn't. A big squiggoth that blocks more LoS than the forgeworld model would. And a looted wagon modeled for maximum BLoS.

He's well on his way to a custom Ork army that plays totally different and more advantageous way than intended.

 Peregrine wrote:
BEFORE VOTING: THE OP OPENLY ADMITS THAT THEY WANT TO USE A LARGER MODEL BECAUSE IT CAN BLOCK LOS TO MORE MODELS BEHIND IT. THIS IS NOT A CASE OF "I MADE A COOL MODEL, CAN I USE IT".

My understanding of Peregrine's argument is as such;

You understand wrong. It's very simple:

1) RAW you can't use scratchbuilds at all (as they are not the appropriate Citadel model). However, the vast majority of players play with a house rule that scratchbuilds are acceptable, as long as they are a reasonable approximation of the real model and not an attempt to gain an advantage (better firing arcs, blocking LOS better, etc) by using a different model. The relevant part in this case is that a scratchbuilt model must have roughly the same size/shape as the real model to be legitimate (or you must agree to count it as being that size/shape if it becomes relevant).

2) The only official models GW have produced for a looted wagon have been either a looted Rhino or a Rhino-size vehicle.

3) The codex picture for the unit shows a looted Leman Russ, which is roughly the size of a Rhino.

4) The stats for a looted wagon are the same as a Rhino (AV 11, 3 HP).

5) There is another model (the battlewagon) which represents a larger vehicle (complete with higher AV, larger model size, etc).

Conclusion: a legitimate scratchbuilt looted wagon must be roughly the size of a Rhino, and using a bigger model because it blocks LOS better is textbook MFA.

I did not realize that GW ever put a Looted Wagon into production. I have not seen one from GW or FW for that matter. Do you have a pic or something on it?

 hyv3mynd wrote:
I'd have a problem with using a 250pt av14 4hp model to represent a 35pt av10 3hp model for starters.

Add in the context that the OP has now started 3+ threads searching for validations to MFA his Ork army to victory. An ADL shortened so his grots can draw LoS where they normally couldn't. A big squiggoth that blocks more LoS than the forgeworld model would. And a looted wagon modeled for maximum BLoS.

He's well on his way to a custom Ork army that plays totally different and more advantageous way than intended.

Exactly.

Rule of cool, and as such this also implies the rule of uncool, if you try to field an apocalypse tank, or a shoebox with wheels or something, i'm calling shenanigans.

I saw an old Armourcast baneblade be used as an up-armored battlewagon once. I thought it was cool.

I'll re-state what I said in the other forums this came up in.

Since there is nothing in the rules to state decidedly the size of the model, one HAS TO come up with their own rules. And the only way to do so without allowing commanders with poor generalship that need to MFA to win...this is how we apply 'Looted Wagons' to the system.

The models that are used to represent a 'Looted Wagon' have been shown to be Rhinos...so using something larger than the rough equivalent of a Rhino is clearly MFA and not acceptable. Orks are a great force to modify old units with, but artistic liscense doesn't allow you to be TFG in any other scenario but with the 'Looted Wagon' within the rules...sorry. Cool model or not, remember that if you are scratchbuilding you need your opponents permission for the model's use.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There was only a FW model for a Waveserpent for the longest time for Eldar, that didn't mean that people could put a Banebladeon the table then to block LOS as the Eldar player moved forward...since there was no non-FW model.

Regardless of what rules applied to it, it WAS the model for the Waveserpent. Just like a looted Rhino is a representative of the 'Looted Wagon'. So something to represent that model on the table as a scratchbuild would be required to be of similar size.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
I'll re-state what I said in the other forums this came up in.

Since there is nothing in the rules to state decidedly the size of the model, one HAS TO come up with their own rules. And the only way to do so without allowing commanders with poor generalship that need to MFA to win...this is how we apply 'Looted Wagons' to the system.

The models that are used to represent a 'Looted Wagon' have been shown to be Rhinos...so using something larger than the rough equivalent of a Rhino is clearly MFA and not acceptable. Orks are a great force to modify old units with, but artistic liscense doesn't allow you to be TFG in any other scenario but with the 'Looted Wagon' within the rules...sorry. Cool model or not, remember that if you are scratchbuilding you need your opponents permission for the model's use.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There was only a FW model for a Waveserpent for the longest time for Eldar, that didn't mean that people could put a Banebladeon the table then to block LOS as the Eldar player moved forward...since there was no non-FW model.

Regardless of what rules applied to it, it WAS the model for the Waveserpent. Just like a looted Rhino is a representative of the 'Looted Wagon'. So something to represent that model on the table as a scratchbuild would be required to be of similar size.

In the ork codex the fan art picture of the looted wagon is a Leman russ.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
Since there is nothing in the rules to state decidedly the size of the model, one HAS TO come up with their own rules. And the only way to do so without allowing commanders with poor generalship that need to MFA to win...this is how we apply 'Looted Wagons' to the system.

I think this sentence got away from you. The 'only way' is what?

so using something larger than the rough equivalent of a Rhino is clearly MFA and not acceptable.

What do you mean by 'roughly'? What eldar model would you approve? What Necron model? Tau? How about scratch built sizes?

I'm curious about anyone's answers to these questions, not just Faenvin's

Heck i even remeber a news feed GW did once.. with their OWN custom made Looted wagons (leman russ)

I think it's acceptable for an Ork army to take any ordinary vehicle and "loot" it as a "looted wagon". By 'ordinary' I mean anything sanctioned as 40k which excludes apocalypse. So no baneblades.

I see no problem in looting a land raider and converting it to a looted wagon. The "fluff" reason for a land raider being essentially downgraded in this way is simply that it has been severely beat up and is pieced together with spit, teef and red paint... By the same token I'd say they could loot a monolith and orkify it as well.

Regarding the the OP has been accussed of trying to gain any type of advantage for the size of the wagon: I say so what. Looting something the size of a land raider has drawbacks. For example, due to it's larger foot print it will be much harder to hide it behind anything and therefore much easier to target earlier on in the game.

Would also like to add this from the ork FAQ

Q. How are the boomgun and other weapons mounted on a Looted
Wagon? (p54)
A. Players are free to mount the weapons on their converted or
scratch-built models howeverthey see fit (i.e. in a turret,
sponson, hull or otherwise), as long as this is absolutely clear
by looking at the model.

Wich kinda says you are free how you want to model.

Players are free to mount the weapons on their converted or
scratch-built models

scratch-built models

I just hope GW doesn't see this thread (haha I know) but it could get their gears turning. "Hey guys, I hear the 'internet' wants to use LRs as Looted Wagons! We should drop the point price and make them an 'always take' choice in the new ork codex." Cha-ching! /sarcasm

I would allow it since it takes up a good chunk of deployment and if it goes "Don't press that" can block up the rest of the army pretty solid. If it explodes then there's that much more hull to measure out the damage. Go for it!

The ork codex is a perfect army for conversions. Conversions can be fun for the people who use them, and can also be a unique sight that opponents can admire.

There is a clear line however. Conversions that give you advantages are highly frowned upon. ( as the OP should hopefully start to notice)

If your making a looted wagon, you can choose to do so with any vehicle and still be "fluffy"

That doesn't mean you should get the biggest (or smallest) vehicle you can find just to gain an advantage for LoS purposes.

An example of someone trying NOT to be TFG and still using a landraider could be to only use parts from the land raider, not the whole model. A patchwork of panels with tank tracks is totally orky, and I would gladly play against it.

Heck if i loot a landraider i'd put a deffrollah on it and use it as a battlewagon iv'e seen several people done this even at tournaments.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Rigeld - but would a landraider be "oversized", given you could loot them in the previous book?

But you could only loot them as 'looted land raiders' and like multiple units from 3rd edition Ork codex, many models from 3rd edition did not survive to their 4th edition incarnations.

Flash gitz, Skarboyz and Tanksbustaz are a few models which either have no rules or are no longer suitable for their 4th edition incarnation due to the change of the rules. 'Looted Land Raiders' are no different because from a 'Counts as' point of view, they are best re-classified as a Battlewagon with Zzap gunz as that is a better fit rule-wize and there is no expectation or guarantee that old models will 100% translate to the new codex entry and sometimes are best repurposed as a more fitting rule entry, like Flash Gitz who were 1 wound, 6+ save, boy-sized with up to 5BigShootas and led by a Nob. They share nothing with the new Flash gitz apart from a name and would need to be a proxy to fit. Most 3rd edition flash gitz would be better off as 'shoota boyz' simply because it is a better fit. Considering the multiple changes and reclassification's from the 3rd edition codex, the 'Looted wagon from 3rd allowed it' holds zero water with me as it was a 255 pt Av14 land raider in 3rd and the codex rewrite invalidated those models the same way they did to lots of units.

And horribly biased and poorly written poll is horribly biased and poorly written. Rule of Cool, legacy model support and abusive tactics all play into how reasonable a custom wagon is and tolerance for the size and will determine why someones 3rd edition looted landraider is ok, but someone elses abusive, turn sideways and block LOS to 3 battlewagons landraider may not be.

And there is a general sweet spot for rule of thumb for reasonable people... Looted wagons statline and history are based around lighter imperial tank chassis and Land Raiders have traditionally been battlewagons in all circumstances, from epic fluff and 3rd edition codex when the LR kit was originally released.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

phatonic wrote:
Would also like to add this from the ork FAQ

Q. How are the boomgun and other weapons mounted on a Looted
Wagon? (p54)
A. Players are free to mount the weapons on their converted or
scratch-built models howeverthey see fit (i.e. in a turret,
sponson, hull or otherwise), as long as this is absolutely clear
by looking at the model.

Wich kinda says you are free how you want to model.

Players are free to mount the weapons on their converted or
scratch-built models

scratch-built models

That doesn't give infinite latitude to make models which do not match the WYSIWYG armor classes of the model in question or the size of what is within reason for the model in question.

Personally, I think sticking to the small imperial tanks fits the spirit of the 3rd edition rules, the fluff of the ork universe and fairness of the game as well as mirrors the official FW models which have been released and referenced by GW int he past for looted wagons. Land Raider-based models should be battlewagons due to size and WYSIWYG. Looted skimmers often look like trash and also, ork tanks are not Skimmers so unless highly converted it doesn't match WYSIWYG... and Rule of cool takes care of it.

Monoliths have no business being looted wagons. I have seen some cool battlewagon/battlefortress conversions, but it is abusive as a looted wagon. We are talking an AV11 35pt tank. It would be like using demon princes for cultists.

This poll is framed in a heavily biased way.

The rule is to use the appropriate Citadel miniature. By RAW, you can't use scratch built.

In order to get someone to agree to a house rule in which you can use a scratch built model, you have to be non-abusive about it. The OP has clearly stated he wants to be abusive, and so the obvious answer is that I would not play against his scratch built model.

phatonic wrote:
Heck if i loot a landraider i'd put a deffrollah on it and use it as a battlewagon iv'e seen several people done this even at tournaments.

Land Raiders as Battlewagons are A-OK... but oversized Landraider BWs have been squashed at multiple tourneys. I have 3 Land Raider conversions from 3rd edition and 2 of them are simply too big for tourney play now. I have a total of 4 new wagons and 1 LR based wagon which is legal size, and I use that larger one as a 'lifta-wagon' to avoid advantages from KFFs and disembarking from the larger wagon.

The other 2 ones are now Battlefortresses for apoc games.

I put my opponents first to make sure they don't feel cheated and if non-standard size is an issue I make sure to make sure I am not taking unfair advantage and if they really have an issue, play it as stock or replace with a stock model. I don't need to win via cheating my opponent with gamesmanship where I can say "you may feel cheated, but I am exercising my gamers rights and lack of hard written dimensions to exploit model size for personal advantage... Quit crying." I want the game to be about the game and how cool everyone's models are... not how my models are abusive and I won by tricking an opponent with misrepresentation or tactics which wouldn't work for other ork players due to custom models.

Sometimes models need to change classifications or even be retired. 3rd edition looted Land raiders and similarly large scratch builds should be 'counts as battlewagons' hence why they gave us two sized tanks in the ork codex.

sure let them be looted wagons then! you one shot the thing anyway! -.-

Even tough i dont support any looted necron stuff as necron fluff says their stuff dissapears

phatonic wrote:
sure let them be looted wagons then! you one shot the thing anyway! -.-

Even tough i dont support any looted necron stuff as necron fluff says their stuff dissapears

35pt giant ass LOS blocking wrecks mid-table is severely game impacting and can drastically change how the entire ork codex works and how you play it with that kind of 'terrain' purchasing power.

nkelsch wrote:

That doesn't give infinite latitude to make models which do not match the WYSIWYG armor classes of the model in question or the size of what is within reason for the model in question.

Where would this "armor class" be identified? Tanks seem to be all over the map with regards to size, facings and capabilities to the point that I'm not entirely certain you could classify tanks from different codexes along the same lines.

Taking 2 easy examples: a Rhino versus a Venom. Rhino is half the cost of a venom, shorter movement, can't assault from it, much larger, more durable and easier to target the exact facing. However the armor values are very close to each other (1 pt difference )... should they be in the same category? Same for comparing a Rhino versus a Raider. Bear in mind that no DE player would put a Raider and venom in the same category.

To ask a very specific question: what "armor class" does a "looted wagon" belong in? The only other vehicle I'm aware of that contains the word "wagon" is a battlewagon which is both tall and long; essentially containing more mass than a land raider. There is a FW "looted rhino" so based on the words used should a "rhino" class be considered smaller than a "wagon" class? If a "wagon" class is supposed to be on the smallish side then why did FW feel the need to specify that it's a "looted rhino" instead of using the already established specific verbiage?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dracos wrote:
The rule is to use the appropriate Citadel miniature. By RAW, you can't use scratch built.

There is no appropriate Citadel miniature. Further, by RAW, orks are allowed to scratch build. By your reasoning there are a large number of models that could never be seen on the table tops. Including myscetic spores, DE bombers and many many others.

nkelsch wrote:

phatonic wrote:
sure let them be looted wagons then! you one shot the thing anyway! -.-

Even tough i dont support any looted necron stuff as necron fluff says their stuff dissapears

35pt giant ass LOS blocking wrecks mid-table is severely game impacting and can drastically change how the entire ork codex works and how you play it with that kind of 'terrain' purchasing power.

People dont really.... do those massive size of looted wagons.. do they? iv'e never seen one bigger than a vindicator (my own) at my meta.. If it's anything bigger i and the others i my local been using them as either Battlewagons or things from the Imperial armor 8. (killkrusha etc)

clively wrote:
By your reasoning there are a large number of models that could never be seen on the table tops. Including myscetic spores, DE bombers and many many others.

Absolutely true. Irrelevant, but true.

phatonic wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

phatonic wrote:
sure let them be looted wagons then! you one shot the thing anyway! -.-

Even tough i dont support any looted necron stuff as necron fluff says their stuff dissapears

35pt giant ass LOS blocking wrecks mid-table is severely game impacting and can drastically change how the entire ork codex works and how you play it with that kind of 'terrain' purchasing power.

People dont really.... do those massive size of looted wagons.. do they? iv'e never seen one bigger than a vindicator (my own) at my meta.. If it's anything bigger i and the others i my local been using them as either Battlewagons or things from the Imperial armor 8. (killkrusha etc)

They give us loads of rules to fit the loads of Ork tanks... which frankly are based upon size, like everything in the ork realm. Anything the same size or larger than a Battlewagon should be a battlewagon (or battle fortress). If it is smaller than a battlewagon, enjoy your looted Wagon. There is no legitimate situation where a looted wagon should be ever larger than a battlewagon, the same way a Buggie should never be larger than a trukk and a trukk should never be larger than a battlewagon. The day you are blocking Battlewagons with lootwagons or blocking trukks with buggies, expect to have problems with opponents.

It really isn't an issue as 99% of people out there are not turds, especially ork players who model for fun. Rule of cool goes a long way... until someone does something fishy with the rules with the 'custom' size and then it goes south really quick.

And when you boil it down... Looted wagons suck pretty hard from a META POV. Terrible transports, a waste of a valuable heavy support, 1/6 times simply doing nothing. Arguably only good as a 'boomwagon' which will NOT be rushing forward to block LOS, carring a KFF or be on the front lines so the size becomes a non-issue.

The *ONLY* way an oversized Looted wagon has purpose and game impact is if it is rushing forward to be mobile LOS-blocking terrain for more expensive tanks... something which would never be done with a legitimate looted wagon. If you want to make a Looted Monolith that sits back and drops pieplates as a boomwagon? most people will be ok with that. You want to move it, and 2 other 35pt models the size of monoliths mid-table to block LOS for your 6 Battlewagon? Game ends.

 Dracos wrote:
This poll is framed in a heavily biased way.

Agreed. I would have included the word 'roughly' or 'approximately' in the 1st choice.

The rule is to use the appropriate Citadel miniature. By RAW, you can't use scratch built.

I disagree. Tyranid's Pods are a decent example that has been referenced before. There are others.

Personally I'm fine with looted anything. Just so long it's not apoc.

 Overlord Thraka wrote:
Personally I'm fine with looted anything. Just so long it's not apoc.

*loots a wraithknight and a riptide to make a deffdread*

I said this in the other thread. As long as its a GW model (maybe FW would be a stretch for things like titans and superheavys) and it looks sufficiently orky then you can use whatever model you want.

Duplicate thread, started/locked not 24 hours ago;

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/529474.page

Dakkamite, I think at this point, it's safe to say--check with your opponent or TO before using the model.