Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The metaphor was "when all you have is a hammer, everything else in the world starts to look like nails."

Or... "when all you have is Space Marines, everything else in the world starts to look like it needs drop pods."

Well actually the act of managing to kill and survive makes the Space Marine-initiate very intelligent, he is a gritty survivor, and most of them likely has has killed before their balls have dropped, and with that I mean up close and personal with their fists. I think of the Space Marine-initiates as very creepy children that could beat a grown man to death with his own arms much like Mike Tyson was before he turned boxer.

Then the kids are educated, which means they pick up the gravy.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Well actually the act of managing to kill and survive makes the Space Marine-initiate very intelligent

An animal is capable of killing and surviving. That does not mean that the animal has some sort of vast intellect.

Thankfully you dropped every point I made after that Melissia.

 Melissia wrote:
Maybe Iron Hands? I don't see Marines recruiting for intelligence outside of those that specialize in tech.

They don't go for the smart ones, they go for the strong ones. Space Marines aren't smart, they're strong and durable.

Space Marines are warrior monks. They are, in fact, often quite intelligent. More-so than guardsmen most of the time.

Only strong and psychotic means the recruit is weeded out, that's a Khornate fanatic, the Space Marines look for survivors not Eversors.

when a child is recruited at such a young age, they have very little in the way intelligence, because they are young. they only have strength and whatever emotional structure their upbringing has given them.
then the chapter takes them and educates them.
the stupid ones don't learn, so they die.
the smart ones learn, survive and thrive.
then the smart ones kill every fething thing they're ordered to.

BrotherTitus wrote:
when a child is recruited at such a young age, they have very little in the way intelligence, because they are young. they only have strength and whatever emotional structure their upbringing has given them.
then the chapter takes them and educates them.
the stupid ones don't learn, so they die.
the smart ones learn, survive and thrive.
then the smart ones kill every fething thing they're ordered to.

Bingo.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Space Marines are warrior monks. They are, in fact, often quite intelligent. More-so than guardsmen most of the time.

They've been quite stupid from my readings of black library.

Rote memorization is not a sign of intelligence, not truly, it's just a sign of having a capacity for memory. Besides, most things a Space Marine knows isn't taught to him, it's hypno-indoctrinated into him.

 Melissia wrote:
They've been quite stupid from my readings of black library.

What stories have you read?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
They've been quite stupid from my readings of black library.

What stories have you read?

The Horus Heresy series is a good example of a lot of marines behaving stupidly, with a few exceptions that are smart.

They're no smarter than the average human. A bit more experienced in warfare perhaps, but that doesn't make someone smart.

You seem to believe that intelligent individuals can not make stupid decisions. Overcome by emotion, it is very possible.

The Mournival in particular was subject to this.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
You seem to believe that intelligent individuals can not make stupid decisions.

No, there's just no evidence of Space Marines being smarter than the average human.

An intelligence of 40 compared to 25 in the FFG RPGs, ohohohoho.

 Melissia wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Well actually the act of managing to kill and survive makes the Space Marine-initiate very intelligent

An animal is capable of killing and surviving. That does not mean that the animal has some sort of vast intellect.

Some Chapters do emphasise intellect, though. The Mentors and Blood Ravens being prime examples. Yes their primary role is combat, but it's incorrect to paint them all as simple-minded killing machines.

 Melissia wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Space Marines are warrior monks. They are, in fact, often quite intelligent. More-so than guardsmen most of the time.

They've been quite stupid from my readings of black library.

This is a fair point, I have this idea in my head that Space Marines should be intelligent - they have long lifespans and surely there's time for them to study things other than war, plus I like the idea of them being warrior-scholars, being almost a separate species to the humans they came from, willing to respect an honourable foe, etc etc. But I've been put off reading Space Marine novels because it feels to me like a lot of the time they're portrayed as acting like overgrown and extremely heavily armed children, running around doing immature things like turning battles into a competition and holding grudges over petty slights. Not all BL Marines are like that, but enough have been to put me off.

It's not just them, though. I also get frustrated when books about Imperial Guard descend into things like regiments endangering the mission because of their prejudices or ancestral rivalries, which I've seen in several stories including Gaunt's Ghosts books. I would rather read about professionals who fight the enemy, not supposed soldiers jeopardising the mission with petty squabbles.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
An intelligence of 40 compared to 25 in the FFG RPGs, ohohohoho.

Humans can max out their intelligence at 70-80 or so, with a bonus of somewhere around 28-36, whereas the average Space Marine maxes out at 60-70, with a bonus of maybe around 12-14. Effectively, that makes these humans twice as smart as the smartest marine.

Furthermore, humans can have far, FAR more lore skills than he will ever be able to obtain no matter how hard he tries. The average, inexperienced and undeveloped human-- IE the basic Dark Heresy character-- is at 30 intelligence. and the Deathwatch Marines are veteran Space Marines to start off with, not newly made initiates, meaning that they are just marginally more intelligent than the average human... AFTER gaining decades or even centuries of battlefield experience. And many of them are actually LESS knowledgeable about the universe than a human with half a decade of experience under their belt.

If you're going to use FFG RPGs in the discussion, you should really do more research. FFG actually agrees with my assertions. Nothing in the Deathwatch RPG actually makes Marines inherently smarter than humans.

Intelligence does not imply maturity.

The Imperium is not a well-oiled machine consisting of professionals for the most part.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
Humans can max out their intelligence at 70-80 or so, with a bonus of somewhere around 28-36, whereas the average Space Marine maxes out at 60-70, with a bonus of maybe around 12-14. Effectively, that makes these humans twice as smart as the smartest marine.

Furthermore, humans can have far, FAR more lore skills than he will ever be able to obtain no matter how hard he tries. The average, inexperienced and undeveloped human-- IE the basic Dark Heresy character-- is at 30 intelligence. and the Deathwatch Marines are veteran Space Marines to start off with, not newly made initiates, meaning that they are just marginally more intelligent than the average human... AFTER gaining decades or even centuries of battlefield experience. And many of them are actually LESS knowledgeable about the universe than a human with half a decade of experience under their belt.

If you're going to use FFG RPGs in the discussion, you should really do more research. FFG actually agrees with my assertions. Nothing in the Deathwatch RPG actually makes Marines inherently smarter than humans.

I wasn't using PCs because they are intended to be exceptional. Even a starting Dark Heresy character is usually above the common human being in quite a few regards. That you think they represent the average is hilarious. They are acolytes, chosen to be so because they are special. Rank 1-3 acolytes are explicitly such because they are "promising", the only question being if they will have what it takes.

I was using the average. Aka, the bestiary statistics. Compare the average Imperial guardsman or civilian's intelligence and knowledge to that of a Space Marine's.

Please refrain from asking others to do more research while making incredibly faulty arguments.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I was using the average. Aka, the bestiary statistics.

Average human is between 25 and 35 (actually, it's closer to 31, but be that as it may).

This isn't just PCs. As for the Space Marine stats, again, those stats are for veterans. A veteran human may very well be far smarter than a Space Marine, depending on what their experiences required. That's despite having fewer years to become a veteran.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Please refrain from asking others to do more research while making incredibly faulty arguments.

If I had made one, this might be applicable. I didn't, however, so it is not.

Okay, I will explain further. I did not think this necessary, but apparently it is.

Open up your Black Crusade rulebook, and go to the adversaries chapter, and then the Forces of the Imperium segment. It gives statistics for both the average, bog-standard guardsman, and the average Space Marine.

The Imperial Guardsman has an intelligence of 28.

The average Marine?

40.

The Marine also has three lore skills, compared to the guardsman's one.

Now open up Dark Heresy's core rulebook.

The random citizen of the Imperium, on page 338, has an intelligence of 20.

I grow weary of this argument Melissia.

"A Space Marine is no mere man. He is a
superhuman being, born of scientific manipulation and
genetic modification, as different from humankind as
steel is from iron. Through years of the most
exhaustive and rigorous training, the rough firmament
of the Space Marine's mind and body are forged into
that of a warrior supreme, with battle-skills and
faculty of reason that far surpass those of the
common man."
- Space Marine Codex, page 5

So there you go. Space Marines are more intelligent on average than mortals.

You shouldn't open the Black Crusade rulebook. It's awful.

Aside from that, yeah, Space Marines are supposed to be smarter than the average bear too.

I brought up FFG mostly as a joke, Melissia simply had the audacity to argue seriously with it, as well as insinuating I had not, in fact, done my research.

BrotherTitus wrote:
when a child is recruited at such a young age, they have very little in the way intelligence, because they are young. they only have strength and whatever emotional structure their upbringing has given them.
then the chapter takes them and educates them.
the stupid ones don't learn, so they die.
the smart ones learn, survive and thrive.
then the smart ones kill every fething thing they're ordered to.

Knowledge does not necessarily = intelligence, but for the rest of your post, you are correct.
Them smart ones out-wit the idiots.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Open up your Black Crusade rulebook

Ew no.

I'm using Deathwatch. Again, no rules for increased intelligence for Deathwatch marines.

So would you like to give me your concession now, or do you want me to stop by later to pick it up?

Please focus your posts on the subject and not criticism of your fellow Dakkanauts. -Mannahnin

I have no need to concede anything. You have not yet actually proven taht there is anything in the Space Marine creation process that increases their intelligence.

Which you won't, of course, since there isn't anything there for you to use.

Beavis, just because I don't view them as unstoppable Mary Sue gods of war like you do doesn't mean that I hate Space Marines.

 Melissia wrote:
I have no need to concede anything. You have not yet actually proven taht there is anything in the Space Marine creation process that increases their intelligence.

Not that I ever claimed that mind you, I simply said on average a Marine is more intelligent than a guardsman or a civilian.

But of course, the only way you know how to debate is with strawmen.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

"A Space Marine is no mere man. He is a
superhuman being, born of scientific manipulation and
genetic modification, as different from humankind as
steel is from iron. Through years of the most
exhaustive and rigorous training, the rough firmament
of the Space Marine's mind and body are forged into
that of a warrior supreme, with battle-skills and
faculty of reason that far surpass those of the
common man."
- Space Marine Codex, page 5

So there you go. Space Marines are more intelligent on average than mortals.

This is, in fact, empirical evidence that the Space Marine creation process, be it the explicit genetic tampering or the indoctrination, improves the intelligence of a Marine beyond that of the common man or woman.

Melissa sorry but you are incorrect. Space Marines are given Eidetic memory and cognitive enhancements via hypno therapy and other means. Their minds are also engineered. At the very least that is how BL portrays them, but I am quite sure there are several mentions and allusions in GW main product as well.