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A pledge of allegience is a terrible idea, aside from anything else it doesn't actually mean anything. If you force children to recite something everyday they are unlikely to think about what they have been forced to say in a positive light.

Personally, I oppose pledges of allegiance.

First, let me say that I think my views on this topic are somewhat extreme. I recognize that. If other people think I am too far out on this, then that's okay. I do not expect others to agree necessarily with my views or intensity.

That being said, I think that the pledge of allegiance is functionally far too similar to an oath of loyalty, and that they carry the same negative connotations to my mind. As far as I'm concerned, any US Citizen is loyal be default position, and any guest of the nation is, by default, as loyal as is reasonable to expect. Oaths of loyalty are never acceptable for general citizenry. The only time an oath of loyalty or service should be administered is when you go into government service. THEN it's understood that a higher level of commitment is required, expected, and agreed upon.

Forcing children to take a pledge of allegiance? As a teacher, I think it's the most reprehensible thing I've ever had to do. I have always made sure that students understand they don't have to say the pledge if they do not wish to, and that while school policy requires that we stand respectfully for the recitation, they are NOT required to say it too.

I try to walk the line of moderation in most areas of life, but I think that the pledge of allegiance should be removed from schools in America. I don't know British politics, or the politician in question, as well as I'd like, but I suspect that this is one of those 'wishlisting' sort of statements, with no real chance of becoming reality. Am I correct in that, or is this being seriously considered?

I apologize if I offend anyone, I understand that I feel very strongly about this issue and have been very vehement in my opinions. I understand myself to be in the minority on the issue, at least in the States, and I accept that there is little chance for my preference to become reality. I hope for a change here, but it's unlikely. I also hope that it does NOT become the norm in the UK.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
I think some Americans think that we're not patriotic because we don't do pledges to the flag and other overt acts if nationalism. Like many things about Britain it's more understated, by our standards the pledge of allegiance is quite crass and unneeded. Most of the time I think we are supportive and proud of our country but don't beat on about it. Sometimes we do have big patriotic moment. When Kate and Wills got married, London was swarmed by people there to watch and wave flags, most of the country tuned in to watch on TV, all of their own accord.

Look at the difference between our top military awards, the Medal of Honor against the Victoria Cross. The American award is gold metal and colourful, the VC is a single dull metal cast from an old cannon. The point being that it doesn't need to be showy, it's modest and understated because it's accepted that its importance speaks for itself. That sums up a lot of differences between US and Beitish cultures, we think you're brash and loud, you think we're quiet and non patriotic.

In fairness, we totally jacked that cannon from the Russians a few hundred years ago...
So it's sort of patriotic.

Regarding the US pledge, what if you're an atheist?

 Jimsolo wrote:
Personally, I oppose pledges of allegiance.

First, let me say that I think my views on this topic are somewhat extreme. I recognize that. If other people think I am too far out on this, then that's okay. I do not expect others to agree necessarily with my views or intensity.

That being said, I think that the pledge of allegiance is functionally far too similar to an oath of loyalty, and that they carry the same negative connotations to my mind. As far as I'm concerned, any US Citizen is loyal be default position, and any guest of the nation is, by default, as loyal as is reasonable to expect. Oaths of loyalty are never acceptable for general citizenry. The only time an oath of loyalty or service should be administered is when you go into government service. THEN it's understood that a higher level of commitment is required, expected, and agreed upon.

Forcing children to take a pledge of allegiance? As a teacher, I think it's the most reprehensible thing I've ever had to do. I have always made sure that students understand they don't have to say the pledge if they do not wish to, and that while school policy requires that we stand respectfully for the recitation, they are NOT required to say it too.

I try to walk the line of moderation in most areas of life, but I think that the pledge of allegiance should be removed from schools in America. I don't know British politics, or the politician in question, as well as I'd like, but I suspect that this is one of those 'wishlisting' sort of statements, with no real chance of becoming reality. Am I correct in that, or is this being seriously considered?

I apologize if I offend anyone, I understand that I feel very strongly about this issue and have been very vehement in my opinions. I understand myself to be in the minority on the issue, at least in the States, and I accept that there is little chance for my preference to become reality. I hope for a change here, but it's unlikely. I also hope that it does NOT become the norm in the UK.

My exalt, there it is.

Dear Lord.
Any Englishman who would recite and believe in such a crass piece of propaganda driven drivel is probably no Englishman.

We leave that sort of absurd nationalistic tomfoolery to those crazy Europeans.

 Hedgehog wrote:
Regarding the US pledge, what if you're an atheist?

You don't have to say it, or you can just leave the "under God" part out. Or you can say it and not really believe it. Or you can say the whole thing while thinking about how ironic it is. Plenty of options.

gah, now i'm having school flashbacks thanks to this thread
every morning, pledge of allegiance right before they did morning announcements. also a moment of silence worked in there somewhere once i hit highschool

 Hedgehog wrote:
Regarding the US pledge, what if you're an atheist?

Yeah....this pretty much sums up my issues with the pledge...and a lot of other things about this country (but since this is about pledges, we'll leave that stuff out)

We had to recite this thing every day until junior high. From day one, it meant nothing to me...more than that I remember, even as a little kid, being uncomfortable with the "under god" part, and eventually found it insulting. I'd say it undermined the whole thing. If a country wants to incite patriotism, they need to show the people why the country is great and make them feel like the contributed to that...not recite a few crappy lines that are probably as likely to form resent as they are to inspire.

Hedgehog wrote:Regarding the US pledge, what if you're an atheist?

Are people in the US allowed to recite the pre-1954 version that doesn't mention god as an alternative?

 azazel the cat wrote:

Hedgehog wrote:Regarding the US pledge, what if you're an atheist?

Are people in the US allowed to recite the pre-1954 version that doesn't mention god as an alternative?

Yes, skipping the "Under God" portion is optional. If someone is reciting it, they pause to allow other people to say it, then continue/finish the pledge.

Forcing this kind of thing onto children is nothing short of indoctrination. You only have to look at examples in history to show you where such things can go HORRIBLY wrong. Hitler Youth, anyone...?

Oh Ya....I so live and die by being indoctrinated by the Pledge of Allegiance.....I'm so into poetry because of the US National Anthem....One sentence that did have a hold of me for like the past 17 years....."No one is more Professional then I"

 Jihadin wrote:
Oh Ya....I so live and die by being indoctrinated by the Pledge of Allegiance.....I'm so into poetry because of the US National Anthem....One sentence that did have a hold of me for like the past 17 years....."No one is more Professional then I"

Yeah, fair point - it's an easily bucked trend. What I really meant is it's nothing short of *an attempt at* indoctrination.

I went through three phases with the US Pledge of Allegiance:

1) Age 16 to ~20: After moving to the US from Germany (with dual citizenship) I started to attend school in Oklahoma. The Pledge (for the US and Oklahoma) was said every morning, but I never participated. I had the mixed bag of being a citizen by birth, but also being an immigrant. So dual loyalties made me not recite it. I did however stand up during it out of respect to everybody else.

2) Age 20 to ~25: Startet to recite it during events and meetings if it came up.

3) Age 25 to now: No longer recite it, primarily because you pledge to a piece of cloth first and to a republic second. It really shows that it was invented as a marketing ploy to sell flags to schools. If the pledge was to the constitution I might feel differently, but I no longer pledge to symbols that can change or whose meanings can change.

It isn't a bad idea to have a pledge of allegiance. People have all kinds of oaths that they swear, and it's a good way of recognising they're committing to something more than just their own personal benefit.

But making people say that oath, let alone every day? Well that's just all kinds of stupid. I mean, how insecure can a nation be that it makes children tell them how much they love it every single day?

I mean, the point of an oath, surely, is that you choose to say it. You actually take it on your own initiative, it is something you want to do. So I think it'd actually be kind of cool to have ceremonies and the like that people can volunteer for, where they pledge allegiance to their country, but if those are anything more than voluntary, well then they stop making any kind of sense.

 Jihadin wrote:
Cowboys versus gentlemen what!

There, got that for you old bean.

 Super Ready wrote:
Forcing this kind of thing onto children is nothing short of indoctrination. You

Yes thats the point, but I'm not sure what your point is.

 Frazzled wrote:
Yes thats the point, but I'm not sure what your point is.

My point was that it can go horribly wrong. ...aaaaaaaas indicated by the second part that you missed out...
If you don't know what the Hitler Youth is, I suggest looking it up.

 Super Ready wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Yes thats the point, but I'm not sure what your point is.

My point was that it can go horribly wrong. ...aaaaaaaas indicated by the second part that you missed out...
If you don't know what the Hitler Youth is, I suggest looking it up.

You think saying the pledge of allegiance = Hitler Youth? What are you twelve? It tooks at least two campouts and a cool rally to get people into the Hitler Youth. Kids these days...

The Pledge of Allegiance was invented by a socialist who wanted to sell more flags and be a capitalist, so he came up with a catchy phrase to make kids parade in class to salute a piece of cloth he was selling.

It's the American dream really.


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Also, since we already Godwined this thread: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute