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So what would the Hive Mind have to do to display such reason? Or understanding? How are we measuring this, and how would we even "see" it if it were there?

I don't know, I'm not a philosopher. I'd suggest some reading but I'm unfamiliar with those who have written on the subject.

However without an adequate display one simply assumes null. That is, the hive mind does not have reason until it displays the capacity for reason, and as far as I know, there is no such example within the fiction.

 Medium of Death wrote:
The Tyranids adapted a startlingly fast pace when fighting the Tau. Each new wave of Tyranids having being grown for the purpose of combating the new Tau offensive.

I think the Tyranids are most likely bio-weapons created by a species that they since wiped out. It explains why they make planetary assaults instead of you know, just releasing a virus into the atmosphere that renders the population into a soup.

Considering that Nids are highly based on Xenomorphs, that would make sense retroactively if you've seen Prometheus. Probably not the case though.

I agree with the theory that the 'Nids are like cells of the body, but I've always seen the synapse creatures as the neurons of said body. A brain cell isn't intelligent, but our brains are. That's how the Hive Mind works in my eyes.
I'd say that whilst perhaps an individual Tyranid doesn't understand the difference between species all too well, the synapse creatures would have a greater understanding, and the Hive Mind would more than likely be figuring out what to do. Synapse creatures are the synapses of this metaphorical body, the Hive Mind 'brain' knows to take out the sentry guns, this is then signaled to the little gribblies via a network of synapses who take out the sentries.
When you punch someone you hit them with your hand. Your hand doesn't decide to, these are the feral 'Nids, the synapses of the nervous system don't decide to, these are the synapse creatures, the nerves themselves don't make the decision, these being the ships and Norn Queens ect, your brain, working as a whole, an intelligence greater than the sum of it parts, decides to throw the punch. THAT is the Hive Mind.

Well yes, that's how I'm assuming it works, however neuronal activity doesn't imply sentience or reason. All vertebrae and most invertebrae have neuronal systems akin to a brain, but not all are sentient and as far as we can tell, we are the only ones with reason.
Sentience would allow the hive mind to feel each death and experience fear or rewards. However to understand the other races, not just on a basic level, the hive mind would need reason.
I really wish I could be more specific, this isn't really my area of biology, and even if I was well versed in neuroscience, there's stilla lot that's unknown about consciousness so really I think it's best to just suspend disbelief on this one. Thes little chance of any of us coming up with a good exclamation for a fantastic super creature when even the top neurologists barely understand consciousness as reason.

The hive mind I imagine is an extremely wise entity, as well as a very limited number of its subordinates. It learns from every interaction and stores it.

The other 99.999% of the Tyranids that exist - unthinking swarms of hungry bellies who care little about wars fueled by religious sentiment and political agendas.

 Evileyes wrote:
They learn and adapt ti individual enemies, therefore if the tyranid's have encountered an enemy before, they remember and recognise the best way to deal with them.

Yes, that is how SwarmLord kept reincarnating -_-

 Griddlelol wrote:
I don't know, I'm not a philosopher. I'd suggest some reading but I'm unfamiliar with those who have written on the subject.

However without an adequate display one simply assumes null. That is, the hive mind does not have reason until it displays the capacity for reason, and as far as I know, there is no such example within the fiction.

How can you say it hasn't shown 'reason', when you yourself don't even know how they would? How do you know, in the fluff, they haven't, and you just can't comprehend it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LunaHound wrote:

 Evileyes wrote:
They learn and adapt ti individual enemies, therefore if the tyranid's have encountered an enemy before, they remember and recognise the best way to deal with them.

Yes, that is how SwarmLord kept reincarnating -_-

The Swarmlord has nothing to do with it. It's how Tyranids have worked since 3rd edition.

 -Loki- wrote:

The Swarmlord has nothing to do with it. It's how Tyranids have worked since 3rd edition.

Swarmlord was mentioned to reinforce / prove that Tyranid have such capabilities.

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
Tau, and IG are chewy
Orks are exrtra chewy
Eldar are soft and chewy with a delicate flavour
Marines are crunchy with a soft centre
Chaos Space Marines are crunchy with a soft centre but taste like they are out of code.
Necrons are extra crunchy

and verything kinda tastes like chicken.

So everything is like McNuggets? And Chaos would be, spicy and crunchy with a soft center.

-STS

LordGirrit wrote:
Essentially, is everything just 'nom nom biomass' to them, or does the hivemind know for example that chaos renegades are the fallen from the imperium? Or are they both yummy humans?

Human civilians: Defenseless chow
PDF: Slightly less defenseless chow
Imperial guard: Fighty chow
Squats: Ah, that was a nice lunch.
Space marines: Rare but crunchy and meaty, extremely fighty
Sisters of battle: Toasty and crunchy, extremely fighty
Orks: Fungoid buffet, extremely fighty
Eldar: Rare, not much meat on them, very fighty
Dark Eldar: The above but with spikes and BDSM.
Harlequins: As Eldar but worth a laugh or two
Exodite: Love that amish goodness
Khornate: Dats a spicey meatball!
Slaanesh: Bit on the sweet side
Nurgle: Does this taste bad to you?
Tzeentch: Tastes like confusion
Chaos Undivided: Hrmm...needs more arms
Necrons: Walnuts
Tau: Hmmm...fishy
Kroot: Tastes like chicken
Vespids: Hmmm...fried bug.
Demiurg: Rich, earthy texture.

 -Loki- wrote:


How can you say it hasn't shown 'reason', when you yourself don't even know how they would?

I may have misrepresented what I meant by "I don't know". I do not know the formal definition of reason, but I have a pretty good idea. Displaying logic is one of the key areas I believe.
I'm also not the only one who doesn't see any rationalisation behind any space frog actions.

do you know, in the fluff, they haven't, and you just can't comprehend it?

I'm assuming this is a joke, but really that's just special pleading. I entirely reject the whole idea of something that is not understandable. There hasn't been an example of anything like that yet either.
Also: considering the fluff is written by humans, whatever evidence they put in there must therefore be able to be comprehended by humans. Although while I write that I feel that I may have taken this too far...

It seems a bit of a silly question, I mean, sure nids are smart, but so are humans.

We don't like to spend very much time at all thinking about our foods do we? I mean.. it might ruin our appetites, if they are smart they will be the same! I bet a nid doesn't want to be thinking "Hmm.. this human might have grown up to be a doctor" it would seriously feth his meal up!

Really.. why would you WANT to think about feelings or motivations while eating? I don't think Chinese people think "this cat might have enjoyed licking its own arse... " while they are eating, and I don't sit there thinking "This cheese couldn't do sums" or "I wonder if this baby cow would like to be washed down with beer or coke"

We just... nom it, for nomming is pleasurable!

I don't know about the hivemind. There really isn't a whole lot of information on it. (I like this by the way)

But there are certainly "lesser" Tyranid creature who are granted enough individuality, intelligence and telepathy to understand other creatures. Tyrants certainly seem to have their own intelligence and possibly personality, especially with the abilities granted in the current codex and the precedent of Swarmy.

And among Genestealers prime abilities has always been their ability to infiltrate, understand and manipulate other species (and not just through their thralls and hybrid offspring). I'd imagine a Symbiarch (meaning Broodlord, stupid german codex) or Patriarch would be capable of comprehensibel communication, if so inclined. I just think they very, very rarely develop such an inclination. Everything they need to know from you, they can learn by telepathy and, failing that, by killing or implanting you. They don't concert through conversation. And they know not to expect any mercy. But maybe a rare few have developed an appreciation for the use of taunting and intimidation?

Just thoughts. I don't see proof one way or the other.

From what I can gather, the concept of political divisions, ideological differences, all of that sort of thing, is completely alien to the Tyranid. It is a hive-creature that exists in perfect harmony with itself, until such time as one part needs to consume another in order for the whole to grow stronger.

Being that it does not appear to care, at all, about human (or Necron, Eldar, Ork or Tau) history, I don't see why it would bother to learn about the split between the SM and CSM, or the Imperium and other human factions, or Eldar and Dark Eldar, or of the enmity between the various non-Tyranid species. Such matters are completely useless to the Swarm. They're the sort of thing that an intelligent, but conquering, culture would worry about... recording the history of the civilizations it exterminates, for posterity if for no other reason. The Tyranid? They don't colonize worlds, they just consume them.

ETA: That is really what Tyranid lack: culture. They produce no art, they build no monuments, they construct no tools that can be left behind.

Ruarinator2 wrote:
They understand 2 things.

That they are hungry, and that every other race in the galaxy = FOOD!!!

Tell that to the crons

 Griddlelol wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:


How can you say it hasn't shown 'reason', when you yourself don't even know how they would?

I may have misrepresented what I meant by "I don't know". I do not know the formal definition of reason, but I have a pretty good idea. Displaying logic is one of the key areas I believe.
I'm also not the only one who doesn't see any rationalisation behind any space frog actions.

What rationalization do you give any bacteria on the surface of apple when you eat the apple? That you're hungry?

Tyranids have evolved to the point where in that analogy, they are the person, and we are the bacteria on the apple. They don't need to show reason, they just eat the world, because they're hungry. Sure, the method of consumption is different, but really, we are bacteria to them, and they are an animal eating the apple we are on. They don't need to rationalize their actions to their food.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:


How can you say it hasn't shown 'reason', when you yourself don't even know how they would?

I may have misrepresented what I meant by "I don't know". I do not know the formal definition of reason, but I have a pretty good idea. Displaying logic is one of the key areas I believe.
I'm also not the only one who doesn't see any rationalisation behind any space frog actions.

What rationalization do you give any bacteria on the surface of apple when you eat the apple? That you're hungry?

Tyranids have evolved to the point where in that analogy, they are the person, and we are the bacteria on the apple. They don't need to show reason, they just eat the world, because they're hungry. Sure, the method of consumption is different, but really, we are bacteria to them, and they are an animal eating the apple we are on. They don't need to rationalize their actions to their food.

I like the apple analogy. Tyranid dont get get the majority of their biomass from the defenders and populace of a planet. So the tyranid invasionary force is similiar to us cleaning the apple before consumption. All the tyranid care about is the planet, trillions upon trillions of pojnds/gallons come from the oceans and plants of a planet.

 xXSir MontyXx wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:


How can you say it hasn't shown 'reason', when you yourself don't even know how they would?

I may have misrepresented what I meant by "I don't know". I do not know the formal definition of reason, but I have a pretty good idea. Displaying logic is one of the key areas I believe.
I'm also not the only one who doesn't see any rationalisation behind any space frog actions.

What rationalization do you give any bacteria on the surface of apple when you eat the apple? That you're hungry?

Tyranids have evolved to the point where in that analogy, they are the person, and we are the bacteria on the apple. They don't need to show reason, they just eat the world, because they're hungry. Sure, the method of consumption is different, but really, we are bacteria to them, and they are an animal eating the apple we are on. They don't need to rationalize their actions to their food.

I like the apple analogy. Tyranid dont get get the majority of their biomass from the defenders and populace of a planet. So the tyranid invasionary force is similiar to us cleaning the apple before consumption. All the tyranid care about is the planet, trillions upon trillions of pojnds/gallons come from the oceans and plants of a planet.

Humanity in it's entirety makes up maybe a few dozen million tons. Depending on your calcs, this would barely be enough to make a single hive ship.

The Earth's total biomass is over a trillion tons and the oceans, atmosphere, and accesible elemental building blocks of life making up quadrillions if not quintillions more.

Except for Orkoids who gradually replace the old ecosystem, most sapient defenders make up an infinitesimally tiny portion of the food the Tyranids want.

Heck I wouldn't be surprised if the Tyranids could eat Wraithbone.

Also, as Void whales are bigger than the Earth and are single living organisms, a single Void whale would provide a Tyranid fleet an entire galaxy's worth of pure biomass.

Which means if any Tyranid fleet happens upon a void whale, the galaxy is in seriously deep gak.

Tastes great with salsa???

I agree with: peel like Orange, Apple or Prickly Pear?
Just the right technique and effort to get the pulp.

Higher Hive Mind Thoughts: Only three; how hungry am I, how long until the next meal and how much time and energy will this take?

The little leaders at the front lines can expend as much detail oriented thinking as needed to overcome resistance (reflexive).

Same way I relate to a taco!

I seem to remember years ago a game. Yes. I'm sure many of you are familiar with it. HALO?? Does anyone remember "The Flood"?

Besides the grand master thingy of the flood talking to the master chief at the end of, I think halo 2, I picture Tyranids behaving in the same way. Highly aggressive, feeding on planets and other life forms.

But that's just my 2 cents

tgjensen wrote:
As mentioned Genestealers can infiltrate political systems, which requires a rather high level of intelligence and understanding of complex systems. They also are capable of understanding military hierarchies and targeting leaders for assassination, as they did with an Ork Warboss in one piece of fluff in their codex. So yes, they do operate on a far higher level of intelligence than "kill, eat, repeat". They are probably just completely without empathy for alien species.

Genestealers always aim to infect the dominant lifeform in any world they infest, (note dominant, not the smartest or strongest). Their knowledge of politics comes mainly from the people they have implanted who are under their control and the Hybrids of man and Stealer or Tau and stealer etc. It is the most human of their Hybrids and those they have implanted who understand and work towards political goals for the Stealers. These people and the Hybrids are driven by the Stealers desire to dominate the enviroment they are in. This makes them infiltrate politics and bring the Stealers important people to implant to further the Stealers goal of being the dominant lifeform.

If Genestealers were on a planet where the dominant lifeform was a species of very, very stupid slugs, then the Genestealers would seek to use them to take control. The Stealers knowledge of politics is stolen from their prey and it is their extreme ability to adapt that enables them to exploit it. The Hive mind gives them no actual knowledge of politics, they are just so well evolved to adapt that they can exploit it when they encounter it.

 Leech wrote:

tgjensen wrote:
As mentioned Genestealers can infiltrate political systems, which requires a rather high level of intelligence and understanding of complex systems. They also are capable of understanding military hierarchies and targeting leaders for assassination, as they did with an Ork Warboss in one piece of fluff in their codex. So yes, they do operate on a far higher level of intelligence than "kill, eat, repeat". They are probably just completely without empathy for alien species.

Genestealers always aim to infect the dominant lifeform in any world they infest, (note dominant, not the smartest or strongest). Their knowledge of politics comes mainly from the people they have implanted who are under their control and the Hybrids of man and Stealer or Tau and stealer etc. It is the most human of their Hybrids and those they have implanted who understand and work towards political goals for the Stealers. These people and the Hybrids are driven by the Stealers desire to dominate the enviroment they are in. This makes them infiltrate politics and bring the Stealers important people to implant to further the Stealers goal of being the dominant lifeform.

If Genestealers were on a planet where the dominant lifeform was a species of very, very stupid slugs, then the Genestealers would seek to use them to take control. The Stealers knowledge of politics is stolen from their prey and it is their extreme ability to adapt that enables them to exploit it. The Hive mind gives them no actual knowledge of politics, they are just so well evolved to adapt that they can exploit it when they encounter it.

This looks like it's leading us in the direction that while the Hive Mind as a whole doesn't really understand us (it doesn't need it, and why would it bother?), on a local level the Tyranids seem more than capable of developing complex creatures that "understand" whatever they need to to get their job done. In the case of Genestealers, this involves them subverting established societies (and not just human ones either; Genestealers have even thrived in Ork culture). In the case of the Hive Tyrants, this involves them understanding how their various prey species wage war. I imagine the various combat-oriented bio-ships out in space are bred to out-fight whatever they are fighting at the time.

All of which is totally in character for the Tyranids and is just another expression of them building the right bugs for the job. It is very much reactive development though; if the tsunami approach of conquering a world or race fails, then they start looking at ways to overcome resistance. This might be through different combat creatures, or it might be through deploying creatures that "understand" the prey and destroy from within (or out-think the prey, as Deathleaper did). The default position for the Tyranids "understanding" other races looks very much like they don't bother to even try, unless they have to.

Only the genestealers appear to have an understanding of human society and social interactions, and that's a means to infiltrate. Also that seems acquired from hybrids, the purestrain is far more instinctual. Only when members of a race are assimilated is there an 'understanding' formed.

I don't think generally the tyranids 'understand' other races, they see them as biomass for nutrition and assimilation. They are like the Borg in Star Trek, everything is used for food or for assimilation to add genetic material to their whole. They don't 'understand' us because they aren't interested and it's not of value to them, they have no empathy and we are incompatible with their social structure.

It won't matter... when the new dex comes out (if written by ward) will have the hivemind as a short order cook from the warp.

I still think there is "one" creature at the base... I compare it to starcraft zerg.

Or at least one creature that keeps the hive as a larger collection, instead of breaking down into norn queens and doms.

The Tyranids are evolution that has gone full-circle.

Evolution begins with single celled organisms like the amoeba. The Tyranids evolution would of begun like this, if it was originally a natural thing or some horror cooked up in a (soon to be doomed) lab. The Tyranids evolved and multiplied, again and again. The purpose of the amoeba is to spread out as a big blob and absorbs all it encounters. The Tyranids have evolved to the point where they are so many that their numbers could only be seen on a galactic scale. If the Hive mind feels that it has a body, it's body would be this huge blob. To see the swarm like this is the only way to see how the Tyranids really act as one to spread and absorb all the encounter.

If seen in such a way it is clear the Tyranids in thier true state now act like a galaxy eating amoeba! However they are not one cell but countless cells all seeking to spread and absorb. They have gone full circle from microscopic life, to fully sized creatures to a huge swarm that now acts as they once did in the tiny amoeba stage.This gives clues as to how the Hive mind sees life in the universe and all living things in it.

The swarms that make up the Hive fleets have ships bigger than cites and microscopic life too. In attacking a world microscopic life would have to be overcome and consumed by the Tyranids as they have one imperative to consume all. But on a practical note they Tyranids need to overcome microscopic life. This is because microscopic organisms are constantly attacking us and all living things. Our immune system stops them but when we die that ceases to be so we decay, all the tiny critters eat our bodies and recycle us. If the Tyranids don't overcome them they will get very sick and die like anything else would. This is the reason for Tyranids having the strongest immune systems around. The amoeba and it''s cousins attack all in the same remorseless but ultimately non-personal way that the Tyranids consume all.

Ultimately the Hive mind will be aware of microscopic life so small we don't ever perceive it. It is also aware things the size of humans but also things as big as the galaxy. It views dealing with all essential and devotes the needed resources to deal with them on as need basis. It cares not how heroic or evil any of it's food is.

 Griddlelol wrote:

Xyptc wrote:


Haven't you more or less described what human "sentience" is as well?

No-one would say that a white blood cell is smart, but if you put the whole body together you've really got something. Further, I doubt that said white blood cell (or an invading bacterium) has any understanding of what a human sentience is, and there is a very interesting comparison between that and the us-Tyranid Hive Mind dynamic.

No. Insects have rudimentary immunity, but are by no means sentient. Just because there are signalling pathways and feedback it doesn't imply consciousness or any sort of feeling of what's going on around the creature or even the potential to suffer.

The issue with sentience is that it's very hard to define, there's no limits or lines placed, and our current understanding of consciousness is thin and fragile. Adding to what Melissa said, the hive mind may have sentience, but it hasn't displayed reason. Reason is what is needed to answer OP's question.

Sentience is not that hard to define, it's only been buried in centuries of speculation.

Sentience (or consciousness) as 'self-awareness' is access to information in and through the body.
Sentience (or consciousness) as 'subjective experience' is qualitatively impossible to define.

The idea that animals and insects have no consciousness (as in self-awareness) is completely wrong. One of the most basic neural structures is in fact responsible for what we call the 'feeling of self'.

Reason is the capacity to infer information from propositions, basically, its consciousness and cognitive modules applied to the specific data formats of linguistics. A larger meaning is the capacity to plan actions accordingly to an aim, something which is very elementary. By both standards, the Hive Mind has shown its own version of reason (if we allow that it's data format is 'psychic' instead of linguistic).

Is the Hive Mind intelligent? One thing you have to understand about that question is how loaded it is. Intelligence, in a sense, is much harder to define than consciousness is. Computers are capable of much faster and much better computation than us, especially when it comes down to number manipulations. Number manipulations are cognitive functions, therefore it'd be correct to say that computers are much more intelligent than humans when it comes down to this specific function. But we rarely call computers intelligent, because they have no way of resolving the framing problem and many more.

On the other hand, a human brain is incredibly adept at resolving some very specific problems, which computers, for all their computationnal powers, are very bad at tackling. A good exemple of that is family relations. Given very few sentences, just 3 or 4, we are capable of deriving the family relations between an awfull lot of people. We've actually built circuits boards (called 'hidden layers network') that can mimic the neuron's logical operations in deriving family relations. The problem is, you have to train hidden layer networks in order to get them to give the correct answer. And to get a correct answer more than 50% of the time, a hidden layer network needs around 400K training run.

Why is the human brain so great at this? Because it's the product of a evolutionnary process which advantage the individuals capable of understanding family relations, but also, because the cognitive module necessary is actually integrated into the brain's natural development. Normal human children will always beat contemporary computers when it comes to figuring out family relations, because that operation is hard-wired into our brains. This is what makes intelligence tricky. Our biological hardware makes us incredibly adept at resolving some problems, and our lack of others makes us incredibly poor at resolving other problems.

So, back to the question ; is the Hive Mind intelligent? It effectively controls the actions and reactions of hundreds of billions of entity, and, in conflict situations, search for an appropriate solution based on it's general aims. To do so, it must necessarily acts on information transmitted by these agents. So it's intelligent and reasonnable. We can also assume that it's number manipulation capacities are higher than ours, since it has to manage enormous numbers at any given time. But is it more intelligent than, let's say, an average human being? Different beings have different ways of accessing the world and needs different amounts of data from it in order to successfully obtain its goals. It seems to me that the Hive Mind would have no use whatsoever of a 'family relation inferer', for example, and on that aspect, be dumber than a rock in comparison to a child. We also don't know if it's super-predatorial nature is a product of a conscious decision, or if the Hive Mind actually 'emerged' after the Nids decided to go on a munching binge.

tl;dr version : we know that the Hive Mind is intelligent, but asking how intelligent it is in comparison to a human, does not actually makes any sense. Generally speaking, we should assume that it does not understand things which are not advantageous for it to learn.

My biggest pet peeve is when people get sentience and sapience confused. A fly is sentient, but it is not sapient.