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Yeaaaah, not really. I have one of those "near invinci-skimmer" armies, and I weep when I'm facing the front of Leman Russes and Land Raiders. Ok, true, I have extra thanks to the Quantum-Shielding giving me extra 2AV until a pen, but overall skimmers are much more fragile. And all of them are Open-topped, so many times that pen is the only one required . (well, mine are. I admit I don't remember the stats of the Tau's and Eldar's skimmers)

When one of those "METAL BAWKSES" shows me the front armor with AV14, I almost have no way of doing any damage unless my 24'' Gauss range gets there and starts glancing.

The 5+ saved one of my AB's and GA butt more than once, but now with Tau's marketlights and Eldar's Dark Reapers going "LOLWUT 5+ save?", yeah, that bonus isn't gonna save them that often anymore

 Pouncey wrote:

 sudojoe wrote:
I really like what forge world did to the Sisters of Battle Repressors (specialized rhinos)

AV 13 front and 70'ish points (about 20 more than regular rhino)

It is quite a nice upgrade. I forsee future imperial vehicles going this way. Possibly also some crazy tank armor that ignores lances on 2+

I forsee Ork vehicles going even cheaper and staying the same with costs so cheap that it makes them still worth taking despite the lack of survivability. Alternatively the regular rhinos may go that way as well.

If that's accurate, then the Repressor is actually about double the points of a regular Rhino.

Yeah, with our latest Codex we got our Rhinos re-costed to be more in line with the Marine dexes.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/r/RepressorFAQversion1P.pdf

They have the new rules for free on the web page.

The AV 13 though is quite nice. A bit less explosions though from all the masses of str 6 shooting in the game now.

 TheDraconicLord wrote:
Yeaaaah, not really. I have one of those "near invinci-skimmer" armies, and I weep when I'm facing the front of Leman Russes and Land Raiders. Ok, true, I have extra thanks to the Quantum-Shielding giving me extra 2AV until a pen, but overall skimmers are much more fragile. And all of them are Open-topped, so many times that pen is the only one required . (well, mine are. I admit I don't remember the stats of the Tau's and Eldar's skimmers)

When one of those "METAL BAWKSES" shows me the front armor with AV14, I almost have no way of doing any damage unless my 24'' Gauss range gets there and starts glancing.

The 5+ saved one of my AB's and GA butt more than once, but now with Tau's marketlights and Eldar's Dark Reapers going "LOLWUT 5+ save?", yeah, that bonus isn't gonna save them that often anymore

Well I think its mostly the new Eldar codex enjoying the new rules coupled with their own. A Wave Serpent now is 12/12/10 and not open-topped. With the right gear its at least driving around with a 4+ cover save every turn and a 2+ reducing pens to glances. But their weaponry is a lot more impressive to, a twin-linked S8 brightlance might not seem much (on its own it isnt), but coupled with the lance rule it makes even Land Raiders AV 12/12/12 to its fire. So they got a skimmer that could possibly outlive and outfight a Land Raider one on one, just do some mathhammer and you will see, or my previous post.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 TheDraconicLord wrote:
Yeaaaah, not really. I have one of those "near invinci-skimmer" armies, and I weep when I'm facing the front of Leman Russes and Land Raiders. Ok, true, I have extra thanks to the Quantum-Shielding giving me extra 2AV until a pen, but overall skimmers are much more fragile. And all of them are Open-topped, so many times that pen is the only one required . (well, mine are. I admit I don't remember the stats of the Tau's and Eldar's skimmers)

When one of those "METAL BAWKSES" shows me the front armor with AV14, I almost have no way of doing any damage unless my 24'' Gauss range gets there and starts glancing.

The 5+ saved one of my AB's and GA butt more than once, but now with Tau's marketlights and Eldar's Dark Reapers going "LOLWUT 5+ save?", yeah, that bonus isn't gonna save them that often anymore

Well I think its mostly the new Eldar codex enjoying the new rules coupled with their own. A Wave Serpent now is 12/12/10 and not open-topped. With the right gear its at least driving around with a 4+ cover save every turn and a 2+ reducing pens to glances. But their weaponry is a lot more impressive to, a twin-linked S8 brightlance might not seem much (on its own it isnt), but coupled with the lance rule it makes even Land Raiders AV 12/12/12 to its fire. So they got a skimmer that could possibly outlive and outfight a Land Raider one on one, just do some mathhammer and you will see, or my previous post.

They can also fire their shield for 1+D6 S7 hits at 60". It's a lot of firepower for a transport.

Note, I'm wasn't trying to go out of my way to say that skimmers are broken or that skimmer armies are OP, though the new Wave Serpent may prove otherwise and Necrons may still be the army designed best to the 6E core rules.

But really, the bigger point was that the Skimmer tanks largely seem useable for various reasons (SMF saves and cover boosting wargear, Necron A13 shields+rear armor higher than 10 and extra HP's on their basic transport), often effectively returning to 5E survivability levels, where Walkers and tracked tanks are becoming increasingly uncommon due their decreased lifepsan and utility.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I sure as hell am going to complain in an edition where every new Xenos Codex makes playing assault-centric MEQ armies more and more difficult. That's not even including the Heldrake.

As opposed to all the numerous Xenos meele armies that are so very easy to play against shooty MEQ and other shooty Xenos? The same meele centered xeno armies that have absolutely no problem with Helldrakes?

bodazoka wrote:
I think sometimes people who only play space marines are the ones who get gakky when xenos races get anything of value...

I think we should stop with the IoM vs Xenos bit. Artificial differences between players are not good for this hobby and nobody needs this.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Yes lets take some tanks I can muster, a Leman Russ Vanquisher and a Predator. The 2+ making pens glancing kills the dedicated anti-tank role of the Vanquisher, 2d6 penetration rolls, shame 83% of the time this is wasted even if it hits. Or a triple-las pred on my marines, about 2/3 of the shots hit, then further reduced to 1/3 by their standard cover save (every Eldar player worth his salt moves them a bit) and then making the remaining hit a glance with a 83% chance. To recap, these two tanks are around the ~150 mark and build for anti-tank duty. But on top of making the Eldar tank more likely to pen my tanks (by making an AV 14 Russ just a 12) it can also carry an infantry squad at the same time, even making it better, since it will be moving flat out for the first turn giving me only a 33% chance to hit on the crucial turn taking out transports before there deadly units disembark. Need some more examples? What tank preforms better and costs less?

Edit: You mean Wave Serpent with AV 12 front?

First of all 83% hits are not wasted, they take exactly 1/3 of serpent's HPs. Hardly wasted.
Second of all, do people really use those two? I did not ask about just any anti-tank with similar cost but a good one that is used. There is no proof in showing WS is better than a supbar choice. LR vanquisher is now a good choice? Was it ever? First time I've heard that but OK.
Thirdly, let's do some math:
1) Wave Serpent with TL-lance
2) Tripple las-predator
3) Vanquisher

Leman Russ front AV14:
1) 89% to hit, 50% to glance+ -> 44%
2) 66% to hit 33% to glance+ -> 22%. Chance of at least one hit: 52%.
3) 50% to hit 72% to glance+ -> 36%.
Winner: predator.

Predator front AV13:
1) 89% to hit, 50% to glance+ -> 44%, no change
1+) 66% to hit, 16% to glance -> 10%. With various number of shots chance of at least one hit: 35% / 41% (4 / 5 shots).
2) 66% to hit 50% to glance+ -> 33%. Chance of at least one hit: 72%.
3) 50% to hit 83% to glance+ -> 41%.
Winner: predator (debatable)

Wave Serpent front AV12:
1) 89% to hit, 50% to glance+ -> 44%, again, no change
1+) 66% to hit, 33% to glance+ -> 22%. With various number of shots chance of at least one hit: 62% / 71% (4 / 5 shots).
2) 66% to hit 66% to glance+ -> 43%. Chance of at least one hit: 81%.
3) 50% to hit 91% to glance+ -> 45%.
Winner: serpent (debatable)

I also forgot that one las is twin link which further increases the power of predator. It also has the biggest chance of having at least one penetration.
When shield turned on, serpent has a weaker output than 3-las predator. When shield used as a weapon - depending on the target.
So no, serpents are not stronger AND have 83% penetration reduction rate over tripple pred. It's one or the other.

Coverall they are better, but not so much better you make them.

But in the end I do agree that some skimmers are better than your average vehicle. WS seems to be for example (it's not even week after it's release so...), but:
a) They are NOT "godmode". they are NOT invinci-skimmers and they are not what is the most powerful thing in this edition. Not even close.
b) Just because non-flayer vehicles in are generally in decline, doesn't mean that several good ones are OMG WTF BROKEN!11one

 Macok wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I sure as hell am going to complain in an edition where every new Xenos Codex makes playing assault-centric MEQ armies more and more difficult. That's not even including the Heldrake.

As opposed to all the numerous Xenos meele armies that are so very easy to play against shooty MEQ and other shooty Xenos? The same meele centered xeno armies that have absolutely no problem with Helldrakes?

'Nids and Orks have the numbers to fight through the hail of low-AP shots. Daemons are blindingly fast. While Tyranid MCs don't like the "not-Rending" of the new Shuriken weapons it by far punishes MEQ and TEQ armies the hardest, as they pay the most for their models. The same is true of the Heldrake; losing 6 Orks just doesn't hurt as much as losing 6 Marines. The only (loyalist) MEQ assaulty choice that isn't a Land Raider that is tough AND fast enough to reliably get into CC is Thunderwolf Cavalry. 3+ saves just don't cut it that well anymore.

 Macok wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I sure as hell am going to complain in an edition where every new Xenos Codex makes playing assault-centric MEQ armies more and more difficult. That's not even including the Heldrake.

As opposed to all the numerous Xenos meele armies that are so very easy to play against shooty MEQ and other shooty Xenos? The same meele centered xeno armies that have absolutely no problem with Helldrakes?

bodazoka wrote:
I think sometimes people who only play space marines are the ones who get gakky when xenos races get anything of value...

I think we should stop with the IoM vs Xenos bit. Artificial differences between players are not good for this hobby and nobody needs this.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Yes lets take some tanks I can muster, a Leman Russ Vanquisher and a Predator. The 2+ making pens glancing kills the dedicated anti-tank role of the Vanquisher, 2d6 penetration rolls, shame 83% of the time this is wasted even if it hits. Or a triple-las pred on my marines, about 2/3 of the shots hit, then further reduced to 1/3 by their standard cover save (every Eldar player worth his salt moves them a bit) and then making the remaining hit a glance with a 83% chance. To recap, these two tanks are around the ~150 mark and build for anti-tank duty. But on top of making the Eldar tank more likely to pen my tanks (by making an AV 14 Russ just a 12) it can also carry an infantry squad at the same time, even making it better, since it will be moving flat out for the first turn giving me only a 33% chance to hit on the crucial turn taking out transports before there deadly units disembark. Need some more examples? What tank preforms better and costs less?

Edit: You mean Wave Serpent with AV 12 front?

First of all 83% hits are not wasted, they take exactly 1/3 of serpent's HPs. Hardly wasted.
Second of all, do people really use those two? I did not ask about just any anti-tank with similar cost but a good one that is used. There is no proof in showing WS is better than a supbar choice. LR vanquisher is now a good choice? Was it ever? First time I've heard that but OK.
Thirdly, let's do some math:
1) Wave Serpent with TL-lance
2) Tripple las-predator
3) Vanquisher

Leman Russ front AV14:
1) 89% to hit, 50% to glance+ -> 44%
2) 66% to hit 33% to glance+ -> 22%. Chance of at least one hit: 52%.
3) 50% to hit 72% to glance+ -> 36%.
Winner: predator.

Predator front AV13:
1) 89% to hit, 50% to glance+ -> 44%, no change
1+) 66% to hit, 16% to glance -> 10%. With various number of shots chance of at least one hit: 35% / 41% (4 / 5 shots).
2) 66% to hit 50% to glance+ -> 33%. Chance of at least one hit: 72%.
3) 50% to hit 83% to glance+ -> 41%.
Winner: predator (debatable)

Wave Serpent front AV12:
1) 89% to hit, 50% to glance+ -> 44%, again, no change
1+) 66% to hit, 33% to glance+ -> 22%. With various number of shots chance of at least one hit: 62% / 71% (4 / 5 shots).
2) 66% to hit 66% to glance+ -> 43%. Chance of at least one hit: 81%.
3) 50% to hit 91% to glance+ -> 45%.
Winner: serpent (debatable)

I also forgot that one las is twin link which further increases the power of predator. It also has the biggest chance of having at least one penetration.
When shield turned on, serpent has a weaker output than 3-las predator. When shield used as a weapon - depending on the target.
So no, serpents are not stronger AND have 83% penetration reduction rate over tripple pred. It's one or the other.

Coverall they are better, but not so much better you make them.

But in the end I do agree that some skimmers are better than your average vehicle. WS seems to be for example (it's not even week after it's release so...), but:
a) They are NOT "godmode". they are NOT invinci-skimmers and they are not what is the most powerful thing in this edition. Not even close.
b) Just because non-flayer vehicles in are generally in decline, doesn't mean that several good ones are OMG WTF BROKEN!11one

Allright, what do you list as good anti-tank vehicles that people dont see as broken? Its not about fights amongst Predators and Russes, its against Wave Serpents. Like you youreself listed, the most likely thing to win from a WS of the 3 is another WS, a transport. Its great that its output is weaker, but with these new rules it can outfight way more expensive vehicles with better protection. Lets take a Land Raider standard pattern.

Two TL Lascannons with AV 14/14/14. Chance to hit the WS twice is 89%. Then this is reduced to 44,5% due to cover saves. 29% of the original 2 shots will glance or pen. So thats about 1 hit every two turns with a 83% chance to glance. So the original TL lascannons have only a 4,8% chance to penetrate on hitting.
A WS with a TL Brightlance has the same 89% chance to hit. The Land Raider gets no cover save. The WS has a 44,5% chance with its shot every turn to glance or pen. So thats also about 1 hit every two turns with a 33% chance to glance and 66% to pen. The TL Brightlance has a 29% to penetrate on hitting.
Now compare the transport role of both vehicles, the possible values of passengers and the cost of it. Seems that the WS has quite the edge over other even more expensive transports one on one. And just like your math pointed out that a WS is most easily killed off by another WS listed from the examples I gave you. So playing against a mechdar list puts people at a new disadvantage with all those WS buffs.

Your logic about what is broken is flawed too, so just because for example a helldrake or a vendetta is better then the other flyers doesnt mean their broken? Seems most on dakkadakka dont agree with this. If there are only several good/exceptional ones they unbalance the game in comparison to the others, meaning they are broken or the others are broken, in which case they should be nerfed or others improved.

I love when people say "well lance is so much better vs AV14". Yes, yes it is. However, only one army in the game brings AV14 anymore, and thats Guard. Normally those are behind ADL. Normally those things dont die except to side/rear shots or melta anyways. Lance isnt going to do much to a LRB behind an ADL, and are MUCH harder to spam than lascannons.

5+ jink is nice for transports, but just about every skimmer its meh. Most shooting vehicles are normally placed in cover so its not like getting the 5+ is a huge plus. Also, skimmers dont normally have high armor value. conditional AV13 is as good as you get with crons, and those arent even fast or particularly good at long range fighting.

Are eldar skimmers good? Yes. Especially the WS and its new shield. However, they arent THAT good. If used as a transport, they are putting a lot of eggs in one basket. People would shoot at the WS simply because it would put out damage. Now they have another reason to do so. Pretty much the primary reason i never used Falcons for FD transport, even with the BS4 corsair ones. If you start loading up on wargear you are also putting even more points into a vehicle that is av12 and relies entirely on cover saves. Melee or ignore cover weapons (or perfect timing) really hurt the survival of WS.

As opposed to all the numerous Xenos meele armies that are so very easy to play against shooty MEQ and other shooty Xenos? The same meele centered xeno armies that have absolutely no problem with Helldrakes?

Truth be told most xeno armies that try to melee are build around spaming multi wound models and MC and the rest is just chaf.


IMO the serpent is better then the pred because of two things. First your going to buy it anyway , it fits in to any eldar army, a pred doesnt always fit in . The serpet can be cheaper , then a triple las pred . It is a good unit , but most transports with nice weapons are good in 6th ed . The problem is not the scyths or the WS , its rhinos and razorbacks being kind of a bad , aside for their cost.

 zephoid wrote:
I love when people say "well lance is so much better vs AV14". Yes, yes it is. However, only one army in the game brings AV14 anymore, and thats Guard. Normally those are behind ADL. Normally those things dont die except to side/rear shots or melta anyways. Lance isnt going to do much to a LRB behind an ADL, and are MUCH harder to spam than lascannons.

5+ jink is nice for transports, but just about every skimmer its meh. Most shooting vehicles are normally placed in cover so its not like getting the 5+ is a huge plus. Also, skimmers dont normally have high armor value. conditional AV13 is as good as you get with crons, and those arent even fast or particularly good at long range fighting.

Are eldar skimmers good? Yes. Especially the WS and its new shield. However, they arent THAT good. If used as a transport, they are putting a lot of eggs in one basket. People would shoot at the WS simply because it would put out damage. Now they have another reason to do so. Pretty much the primary reason i never used Falcons for FD transport, even with the BS4 corsair ones. If you start loading up on wargear you are also putting even more points into a vehicle that is av12 and relies entirely on cover saves. Melee or ignore cover weapons (or perfect timing) really hurt the survival of WS.

People still bring plenty of land raiders. I'm not quite sure what you're on about.

 sudojoe wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 sudojoe wrote:
I really like what forge world did to the Sisters of Battle Repressors (specialized rhinos)

AV 13 front and 70'ish points (about 20 more than regular rhino)

It is quite a nice upgrade. I forsee future imperial vehicles going this way. Possibly also some crazy tank armor that ignores lances on 2+

I forsee Ork vehicles going even cheaper and staying the same with costs so cheap that it makes them still worth taking despite the lack of survivability. Alternatively the regular rhinos may go that way as well.

If that's accurate, then the Repressor is actually about double the points of a regular Rhino.

Yeah, with our latest Codex we got our Rhinos re-costed to be more in line with the Marine dexes.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/r/RepressorFAQversion1P.pdf

They have the new rules for free on the web page.

The AV 13 though is quite nice. A bit less explosions though from all the masses of str 6 shooting in the game now.

When did that get updated? The increased the points from 50 to 75, front AV from 11 to 13, and removed 6 firing points. Hmmmmm.....

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
'Nids and Orks have the numbers to fight through the hail of low-AP shots. Daemons are blindingly fast. While Tyranid MCs don't like the "not-Rending" of the new Shuriken weapons it by far punishes MEQ and TEQ armies the hardest, as they pay the most for their models. The same is true of the Heldrake; losing 6 Orks just doesn't hurt as much as losing 6 Marines. The only (loyalist) MEQ assaulty choice that isn't a Land Raider that is tough AND fast enough to reliably get into CC is Thunderwolf Cavalry. 3+ saves just don't cut it that well anymore.

I think this hits the nail on the head for marine players (of which I am one). In light of the last two releases, marine shooting (chaos included) isn't all that good anymore, and our assault has never really been something to write home about (I think Tau are the only ones really worried by non-Terminator marine assaults, and they just OW them to death)

Bolters are behind the Tau rifles (longer range, higher strength), Necron Gauss guns (glance on a 6), Ork shootas (assault 2), and now Shurikan Catapults (bladestorm). With the exception of the Landraider, marine vehicles are absurdly fragile (marines are harder to kill than the Rhinos carrying them, which sort of defeats the purpose of an APC). But somehow, people still believe Marines "get all the perks". I think alot of that stems from ATSKNF, and while I readily admit its a great rule, it really doesn't come into play as much this edition as its greatest strength lies in close combat, and the meta is leaning heavily toward shooty armies.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Allright, what do you list as good anti-tank vehicles that people dont see as broken? Its not about fights amongst Predators and Russes, its against Wave Serpents.

In my post there is a vehicle that does quite good against WS. It's the mentioned tri-las-predator.
Yes WS does more damage to other WS than predator does. But predator does more damage to WS than WS does to predator. Put pred in 5+ cover and you're set. It 's more likely to win win the fight than to loose it. It highly depends who will get to shoot first. It's still just one-shot weapon against three shots. 50% to pen or better against 66% to do it. 50% cover against 33%.
Take under consideration things that ignore cover (like Hydra or any Tau) or the fact that it will still loose the fight against Vendettas and Necron flayers.

Once again, the serpent is great but nowhere near the 4th edition Holo-Falcon or the most broken 6th edition builds.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
'Nids and Orks have the numbers to fight through the hail of low-AP shots. Daemons are blindingly fast. While Tyranid MCs don't like the "not-Rending" of the new Shuriken weapons it by far punishes MEQ and TEQ armies the hardest, as they pay the most for their models. The same is true of the Heldrake; losing 6 Orks just doesn't hurt as much as losing 6 Marines. The only (loyalist) MEQ assaulty choice that isn't a Land Raider that is tough AND fast enough to reliably get into CC is Thunderwolf Cavalry. 3+ saves just don't cut it that well anymore.

Sure but at the same time Nid and Orks have the biggest problems going through pieplates that mostly are up to AP4. New skyfire and interceptor Tau greatly hurt flying Nids and Daemons. Cover ignoring Tau? Guess which army depends mostly on cover. It's not MEQs.
Most meele armies got kicked in the nuts. Don't pretend like MEQs are exception and everybody else are having it easy. Just because two or three specific builds in some armies are still viable does not mean that all the xenos are focused on bringing the pain to MEQs but conveniently avoid hurting all the non-MEQs.

 Macok wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Allright, what do you list as good anti-tank vehicles that people dont see as broken? Its not about fights amongst Predators and Russes, its against Wave Serpents.

In my post there is a vehicle that does quite good against WS. It's the mentioned tri-las-predator.
Yes WS does more damage to other WS than predator does. But predator does more damage to WS than WS does to predator. Put pred in 5+ cover and you're set. It 's more likely to win win the fight than to loose it. It highly depends who will get to shoot first. It's still just one-shot weapon against three shots. 50% to pen or better against 66% to do it. 50% cover against 33%.
Take under consideration things that ignore cover (like Hydra or any Tau) or the fact that it will still loose the fight against Vendettas and Necron flayers.

Once again, the serpent is great but nowhere near the 4th edition Holo-Falcon or the most broken 6th edition builds.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
'Nids and Orks have the numbers to fight through the hail of low-AP shots. Daemons are blindingly fast. While Tyranid MCs don't like the "not-Rending" of the new Shuriken weapons it by far punishes MEQ and TEQ armies the hardest, as they pay the most for their models. The same is true of the Heldrake; losing 6 Orks just doesn't hurt as much as losing 6 Marines. The only (loyalist) MEQ assaulty choice that isn't a Land Raider that is tough AND fast enough to reliably get into CC is Thunderwolf Cavalry. 3+ saves just don't cut it that well anymore.

Sure but at the same time Nid and Orks have the biggest problems going through pieplates that mostly are up to AP4. New skyfire and interceptor Tau greatly hurt flying Nids and Daemons. Cover ignoring Tau? Guess which army depends mostly on cover. It's not MEQs.
Most meele armies got kicked in the nuts. Don't pretend like MEQs are exception and everybody else are having it easy. Just because two or three specific builds in some armies are still viable does not mean that all the xenos are focused on bringing the pain to MEQs but conveniently avoid hurting all the non-MEQs.

Ive already playtested a triple-pred against a WS, its not that great. You seem to be ingoring the fact that they can buy gear to negate pens to glanceson a 2+, its what makes them great. Yes we have a 66% chance to pen as long as they dont roll anything but a one. You get about 2.3 hits every turn, turning into 1.15 due to cover saves, leaving only 0.77 glances and pens per turn, of which 0.12 will penetrate. A WS gets about 0.9 hits per turn, reducing it to 0.6 for a 5+ cover save. Of these 0.3 shots will glance or pen with a pen rate of 0.2 shots per turn. Its great that I can glance them to death, but its not much use if it already has unloaded its cargo on turn 2 reducing my tank to a pile of slag. Chaos and Marines are too expensive to keep up in close range, without the ability to quickly take out their transports its as good as over. On a 1000 point game seeing 2 WS and 1 Fire Prism on the field with 2 triple las preds dont give that much output.

Having to get a Hydra or Tau allies just to be able to get a decent counter is just too much. While almost everyone agrees that Necrons and vendettas are also a bit too good for their costs.

When did that get updated? The increased the points from 50 to 75, front AV from 11 to 13, and removed 6 firing points. Hmmmmm.....

I think just a little while ago like late last month ish I'd like to say.

While each repressor is about 2 rhinos, I still prefer them as I can far more reliably get some squad where I want them without having to foot slog. While the costs are more, I feel like the fact that I have to buy a fairly expensive squad to get another dedicated transport means that the improved survivability is worth it to me. AV 13 is much more survivable vs the tons of str 6 and 7 spam that new codexes are brining.

If you notice, you also gain the 6++ shield of faith and lose the other addons. Those firing points that it lost were just bolter only ones though and now you get to fire both specials through the 2 all purpose firing points.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I think this hits the nail on the head for marine players (of which I am one). In light of the last two releases, marine shooting (chaos included) isn't all that good anymore, and our assault has never really been something to write home about (I think Tau are the only ones really worried by non-Terminator marine assaults, and they just OW them to death)

Bolters are behind the Tau rifles (longer range, higher strength), Necron Gauss guns (glance on a 6), Ork shootas (assault 2), and now Shurikan Catapults (bladestorm). With the exception of the Landraider, marine vehicles are absurdly fragile (marines are harder to kill than the Rhinos carrying them, which sort of defeats the purpose of an APC). But somehow, people still believe Marines "get all the perks". I think alot of that stems from ATSKNF, and while I readily admit its a great rule, it really doesn't come into play as much this edition as its greatest strength lies in close combat, and the meta is leaning heavily toward shooty armies.

I don't think marines should ever be better at anything than anyone, their biggest strength lies in the fact that they have no weakness. My DE can hit like a truck, but it can't handle any kind of return fire, and what problem does marine have that is comparable with my fragileness? The fact that they aren't "good enough"? Honestly, I'm not saying that marines aren't showing their age(my DE are too), and could use a good update(which is rumoured to be the next update), but to complain about bolters being weaker than Tau's pulse rifles? Do you know what they traded for those amazing guns? They have below average BS that needs markerlight in order to at least reach what us BS4 armies are used to, and they die faster than DE in assault, without even the ability to fight back!

It's not that marines "get all the perks", it's that it's absurd that you want your weakness-less army to be better at xenos/chaos (the specialists) armies that have a much bigger weakness than "not good enough". Marines are the "human" of WH40k, it's the jack-of-all-trade, they should be the "superhuman", sure, but blame GW for making them the dominant army!

Also, I can't tell you how many time ATSKNF saved my friends from my assaults, shoot at them in hope to soften them, they broke, run, regroup, then fired at me now that my fragile assault unit is off the boat and failed an assault because I decided to try to soften the unit, tell me one non-marine army that can do that. Not to mention the big advantage fast initiative armies have on I4 is totally removed this edition with that ATSKNF simply tarpit the unit should the I6 inevitably "sweep". And then there is also that ATSKNF is one single rule that allows you to ignore a lot of what other armies have: fear, morale test wargears, etc... Again, not saying ATSKNF is absolutely broken, it is a necessity given how few units/models marines army can run, but don't try to play it down...

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Ive already playtested a triple-pred against a WS, its not that great. You seem to be ingoring the fact that they can buy gear to negate pens to glanceson a 2+, its what makes them great. Yes we have a 66% chance to pen as long as they dont roll anything but a one. You get about 2.3 hits every turn, turning into 1.15 due to cover saves, leaving only 0.77 glances and pens per turn, of which 0.12 will penetrate. A WS gets about 0.9 hits per turn, reducing it to 0.6 for a 5+ cover save. Of these 0.3 shots will glance or pen with a pen rate of 0.2 shots per turn. Its great that I can glance them to death, but its not much use if it already has unloaded its cargo on turn 2 reducing my tank to a pile of slag. Chaos and Marines are too expensive to keep up in close range, without the ability to quickly take out their transports its as good as over. On a 1000 point game seeing 2 WS and 1 Fire Prism on the field with 2 triple las preds dont give that much output.

Having to get a Hydra or Tau allies just to be able to get a decent counter is just too much. While almost everyone agrees that Necrons and vendettas are also a bit too good for their costs.

But you don't want Wave Serpent to be balanced, you want it to be unusable garbage. Your numbers, 1.15 vs 0.3 and you don't see the disparity between the abilities of those two vehicles?

You want 150 point transporter to be reliably destroyed turn one by other 150 unit or else it's broken? That logic would mean unless you table me turn 2 my whole army is broken. You can't expect to have vehicle that doubles the cost of a unit and not be able to survive to turn 2.

For that serpent you can have over 4 rhinos. How easy can your laspred deal with those rhinos?
Rhino, again, 35 point vehicle. Move 12", turbo 6". Next turn 6" movement and disembark. That's 24" into the enemy lines. Name all the units costing 35 points that can reliably destroy it before it disembarks the unit on it's second turn. Taking smoke under consideration.

Once again, not Wave Serpent is (very likely) a good vehicle in a edition of crappy vehicles. That does not make it broken.

 Macok wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Ive already playtested a triple-pred against a WS, its not that great. You seem to be ingoring the fact that they can buy gear to negate pens to glanceson a 2+, its what makes them great. Yes we have a 66% chance to pen as long as they dont roll anything but a one. You get about 2.3 hits every turn, turning into 1.15 due to cover saves, leaving only 0.77 glances and pens per turn, of which 0.12 will penetrate. A WS gets about 0.9 hits per turn, reducing it to 0.6 for a 5+ cover save. Of these 0.3 shots will glance or pen with a pen rate of 0.2 shots per turn. Its great that I can glance them to death, but its not much use if it already has unloaded its cargo on turn 2 reducing my tank to a pile of slag. Chaos and Marines are too expensive to keep up in close range, without the ability to quickly take out their transports its as good as over. On a 1000 point game seeing 2 WS and 1 Fire Prism on the field with 2 triple las preds dont give that much output.

Having to get a Hydra or Tau allies just to be able to get a decent counter is just too much. While almost everyone agrees that Necrons and vendettas are also a bit too good for their costs.

But you don't want Wave Serpent to be balanced, you want it to be unusable garbage. Your numbers, 1.15 vs 0.3 and you don't see the disparity between the abilities of those two vehicles?

You want 150 point transporter to be reliably destroyed turn one by other 150 unit or else it's broken? That logic would mean unless you table me turn 2 my whole army is broken. You can't expect to have vehicle that doubles the cost of a unit and not be able to survive to turn 2.

For that serpent you can have over 4 rhinos. How easy can your laspred deal with those rhinos?
Rhino, again, 35 point vehicle. Move 12", turbo 6". Next turn 6" movement and disembark. That's 24" into the enemy lines. Name all the units costing 35 points that can reliably destroy it before it disembarks the unit on it's second turn. Taking smoke under consideration.

Once again, not Wave Serpent is (very likely) a good vehicle in a edition of crappy vehicles. That does not make it broken.

I'd like for the other vehicles to get balanced, but failing that the only thing it would change is the Brightlance (on WS) away from the Lance rule and just give it S9. I was a bit unclear, but the numbers were 0.77 for the pred and 0.3 for the WS. But the question remains, should a dedicated anti-tank unit be worse at penetrating armour than a transport (0.12 pred vs 0.2 WS)?
Well for the price of that serpent I might get 4 rhino's but not one reliable 10 man marine squad to fill them with. It is again a price/quality argument, If I have to rush forwards with Rhino's other parts will suffer due to them being filled up with troops, which cost quite a lot (havent been able to playtest the bladestorm against my chaos marines because the mechdar player just moved his tanks around while his Fire Prism killed marines). But of course the WS isnt the only Eldar skimmer enjoying the new rules.

But what does make something broken? Anything that unbalaces the game were most vehicles are crappy right?

 Macok wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
'Nids and Orks have the numbers to fight through the hail of low-AP shots. Daemons are blindingly fast. While Tyranid MCs don't like the "not-Rending" of the new Shuriken weapons it by far punishes MEQ and TEQ armies the hardest, as they pay the most for their models. The same is true of the Heldrake; losing 6 Orks just doesn't hurt as much as losing 6 Marines. The only (loyalist) MEQ assaulty choice that isn't a Land Raider that is tough AND fast enough to reliably get into CC is Thunderwolf Cavalry. 3+ saves just don't cut it that well anymore.

Sure but at the same time Nid and Orks have the biggest problems going through pieplates that mostly are up to AP4. New skyfire and interceptor Tau greatly hurt flying Nids and Daemons. Cover ignoring Tau? Guess which army depends mostly on cover. It's not MEQs.
Most meele armies got kicked in the nuts. Don't pretend like MEQs are exception and everybody else are having it easy. Just because two or three specific builds in some armies are still viable does not mean that all the xenos are focused on bringing the pain to MEQs but conveniently avoid hurting all the non-MEQs.

I'm not saying that other melee armies didn't get nerfed, I'm saying it hit MEQ assault armies (and Dark Eldar I suppose) the hardest. As I said, 'Nids, Orks and (especially) Daemons get into combat faster than Marines that don't ride Thunderwolves do. 'Nids and Orks obviously suffer more against non-AP3 or lower blasts and templates, but most of the new great shooting units are great because they get AP3 or lower and can ignore or circumvent cover. Riptides, Heldrakes, Wraithknights, Wraithguard and the new Eldar Shuriken rules all hit MEQ much harder than horde armies, because it turns the 3+ save that Marines depend on (since they can't reliably get into CC fast enough in transports anymore) into nothing. The increased amount of low-AP shooting is what is hurting MEQ assault armies disproportionately hard.

And, to be honest, I think you'd have to try really hard to find how 'Nids got nerfed due to the 6th edition rules. Sure, they have the same assault issues as other assault armies, but they gained so much more.

EDIT:

Baronyu wrote:


I don't think marines should ever be better at anything than anyone, their biggest strength lies in the fact that they have no weakness.

Normal troop marines are "jack of all trades", but if specialized units such as Assault Terminators aren't allowed to be good at what they do then what's the point in bringing them?

Macok wrote:

Once again, not Wave Serpent is (very likely) a good vehicle in a edition of crappy vehicles.

And this is sort of the issue, we're having a weird retrograde split based on the skimmer/non-skimmer distinction, as we did in 4th edition, where the skimmers seem to generally provide greater value for their investment, even taking into account they often (though by no means always) cost more than their tracked/legged counterparts.

Can't pop smoke if going flat out in a rhino while skimmers are buffed for going faster. 4+ jink often buffed to 3+ from war gear. Rhino go from 5+ to no cover