Emergency manager: Detroit won't pay $2.5B it owes

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**purplefood**

Everyone moves out of Detroit and the military get a great new urban warfare training environment/urban target range/weapons testing range.
Done.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

purplefood wrote:
Everyone moves out of Detroit and the military get a great new urban warfare training environment/urban target range/weapons testing range.
Done.

Seeing as it started out as a series of British forts, returning it too its military roots might not be a bad idea.

Very sad to see a city like that go down the pan, I feel sorry for the decent folk trying to scrape by.

Question for those Americans in the know: what are gun control laws like in that part of the world? Was looking at the crime stats earlier and they are shockingly bad. The average police response is 90 minutes. Please tell me that law-abiding people are allowed to drive around in Sherman tanks, because this is a clear case of decent citizens needing guns.

**Alfndrate**

Was listening to the radio this morning, someone said that you could buy a house for 15 bucks... I wonder if I could telemcommute to my job

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
purplefood wrote:
Everyone moves out of Detroit and the military get a great new urban warfare training environment/urban target range/weapons testing range.
Done.

Seeing as it started out as a series of British forts, returning it too its military roots might not be a bad idea.

Very sad to see a city like that go down the pan, I feel sorry for the decent folk trying to scrape by.

Question for those Americans in the know: what are gun control laws like in that part of the world? Was looking at the crime stats earlier and they are shockingly bad. The average police response is 90 minutes. Please tell me that law-abiding people are allowed to drive around in Sherman tanks, because this is a clear case of decent citizens needing guns.

They're held by at least the same standards as the rest of us, no shermans, but if the citizens and police were allowed Shermans, the criminals would just get Abrams

But a quick glance at gun control laws in Detroit seem to suggest that it's highly regulated and discouraged.

**Rented Tritium**

This is probably the best thing to happen to detroit. I feel sorry for their creditors though.

**Alfndrate**

Rented Tritium wrote:
This is probably the best thing to happen to detroit. I feel sorry for their creditors though.

Agreed, the only thing I don't like about this whole situation is that people say that Detroit is Cleveland in 5 to 10 years...

**SlaveToDorkness**

Unfortunately a lot of the people getting shafted by the Chapter 9 are the people with pensions from the city.

**Frazzled**

Maybe unfortunate. that means city workers. I don't have a lot of sympathy for city workers' pensions. Thats a major problem across the country with unionized government employees. (looks at California)

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Mmm...after suit by pension funds judge just kicked out the bankruptcy.
http://news.yahoo.com/michigan-judge-orders-withdrawal-detroit-bankruptcy-petition-192120104.html

Interesting to see what will happen now. Clearly I'd only accept cash upfront from these guys going forward.

**Tannhauser42**

To me, this is a somewhat sobering thought:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/18/us/michigan-detroit-howdy-doody/index.html?iref=allsearch

Imagine your local big city selling off all of the art collections in its museums, possibly to other museums, but probably mostly to private collectors where such things may never be seen by the public again.

What's funny to me is that someone brought up OCP. I find that funny because the OCP headquarters was Dallas City Hall.

**Frazzled**

That fits so much more than you realize...

**mega_bassist**

Ahtman wrote:
Breotan wrote:
I always suspected Detroit was a third world country. All we need now is OCP to come in and bail them out.

Fixed for even better accuracy.

Spoiler:

So glad I wasn't the only person that thought of this! That means we're one step close to the ED-209...right?...

**whembly**

Er... wut?

O.o
Judge Rules That Detroit's Bankruptcy Is Unconstitutional, Ruling That It "Dishonors" Obama...
Ingham County judge rules Detroit bankruptcy be withdrawn; Schuette appeals

Lansing — Ruling the governor and Detroit’s emergency manager violated the state constitution, an Ingham County Circuit judge ordered Friday that Detroit’s federal bankruptcy filing be withdrawn.

“It’s absolutely needed,” said Judge Rosemary Aquilina, observing she hopes Gov. Rick Snyder “reads certain sections of the (Michigan) constitution and reconsiders his actions.”

The judge said state law guards against retirement benefits being “diminished” but there will be no such protection in federal bankruptcy court.

State-level legal skirmishing over the Chapter 9 bankruptcy effort by Snyder and Detroit Emergency Manager Kevyn Orr now will quickly move to the Michigan Court of Appeals.

Attorney General Bill Schuette, on behalf of Snyder, filed an application for Appeals Court consideration of Aquilina’s order an hour after it was issued.

Schuette asked the Appeals Court to put a hold on present and future lower-court proceedings and was planning to seek emergency consideration to expedite the process, said spokeswoman Joy Yearout.

While experts say federal proceedings take precedence, state-level legal maneuvering could delay the process. Pension board attorneys said their pleadings ultimately could wind up in federal court, too.

Snyder authorized Thursday’s bankruptcy filing in U.S. District Court in Detroit by Orr and his legal team. That was to set in motion a process, normally taking 30- to 90 days, in which the court determines whether Detroit qualifies for bankruptcy.

The filing involved a bit of courtroom drama.

With rumors it was eminent Thursday afternoon, attorneys representing the pension boards hurried into Aquilina’s court in Lansing to ask for a temporary restraining order.

But Snyder and Orr beat them by a few minutes. Aquilina, informed by phone, allowed the pension board lawyers to revise their restraining order request, then granted it.

Prior to her ruling on Friday, the judge criticized the Snyder administration and Attorney General’s Office over its hasty move to outflank pension board attorneys.

“It’s cheating, sir, and it’s cheating good people who work,” the judge told assistant Attorney General Brian Devlin. “It’s also not honoring the (United States) president, who took (Detroit’s auto companies) out of bankruptcy.”

Aquilina said she would make sure President Obama got a copy of her order.

“I know he’s watching this,” she said, predicting the president ultimately will have to do something to make sure existing city workers’ pension agreements are honored.

Pension board lawyers are contending federal bankruptcy proceedings shouldn’t put city workers’ retirement benefits at risk.

Southfield attorney John Canzano, representing several pension plan members, said bankruptcies of cities such as Stockton, Calif., have been handled in a way that didn’t compromise pensions.

Any arguments for the 10th Amendment?

**Tannhauser42**

Bailing out the auto companies (who, as I understand, were able to repay the loan with interest) would be a bit different than bailing out an entire major city.

**dogma**

whembly wrote:

Judge Rules That Detroit's Bankruptcy Is Unconstitutional, Ruling That It "Dishonors" Obama...

What you wrote, and placed in bold, implies that the ruling was predicated on the honor of the President of the United States. Of course this is not the case, as the article you cited notes. I hope that you are aware of this.

**whembly**

I think the issue is this blurb in the state constitution:

This is the specific Michigan State Constitutional provision at play. Section 24 of the Michigan State Constitution reads as follows:
Section 24: Public Pension Plans and Retirement Systems, Obligation - The accrued financial benefits of each pension plan and retirement system of the state and its political subdivisions shall be a contractual obligation thereof which shall not be diminished or impaired thereby. Financial benefits, annual funding. Financial benefits arising on account of service rendered in each fiscal year shall be funded during that year and such funding shall not be used for financing unfunded accrued liabilities.

Which... seems to be unconstitutional... basically that would give Detroit voters the right to vote themselves the wealth of Michigan taxpayers.

But remember, the bankruptcy is filed in FEDERAL courts, which has supremacy over the states (unfortunately

). This will get overturned.

Anyone find it creepy that a sitting judge would say this:

“It’s also not honoring the (United States) president, who took (Detroit’s auto companies) out of bankruptcy.”

Aquilina said she would make sure President Obama got a copy of her order.

“I know he’s watching this,”

As if he were a diety or Santa Claus....

o.O

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dogma wrote:
whembly wrote:

Judge Rules That Detroit's Bankruptcy Is Unconstitutional, Ruling That It "Dishonors" Obama...

What you wrote, and placed in bold, implies that the ruling was predicated on the honor of the President of the United States. Of course this is not the case, as the article you cited notes. I hope that you are aware of this.

See what I quoted above dude...

**KamikazeCanuck**

We're thinking about picking it up http://globalnews.ca/news/726916/poll-should-canada-buy-detroit/
but it would instantly double our annual murder rate

**whembly**

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
We're thinking about picking it up http://globalnews.ca/news/726916/poll-should-canada-buy-detroit/
but it would instantly double our anual murder rate

Maybe then you'd have a good staging area for the keystone pipeline!

o.O

Heeeeey... that might work. Refinerys are really knarly business... but, they can by huge swath of lands there.

**dogma**

whembly wrote:

Which... seems to be unconstitutional...

Why do you think it would be Unconstitutional?

whembly wrote:

...basically that would give Detroit voters the right to vote themselves the wealth of Michigan taxpayers.

No, no it doesn't. It gives the employees of the state and its political subdivisions the the ability to vote themselves the "wealth" of anyone that is not an employee of the state, or one of its political subdivisions.

whembly wrote:

See what I quoted above dude...

I did, and it was horribly written.

This is a much better article. One which took me all of 2 seconds to find using Google.

**whembly**

dogma wrote:
whembly wrote:

Which... seems to be unconstitutional...

Why do you think it would be Unconstitutional?

Remember... this is the city of Detroit. Let's say the Detroit's pension / benefits plans are truly shielded. How is Detroit going to pay for that? Will they ask the rest of the state to honor that now? (as the State law implies).

Did the rest of MI sign off those contracts? Did the rest of MI vote for the Detroit leaders? No...

See my drift?

whembly wrote:

...basically that would give Detroit voters the right to vote themselves the wealth of Michigan taxpayers.

No, no it doesn't. It gives the employees of the state and its political subdivisions the right to vote themselves the ability to vote themselves the "wealth" of anyone that is not an employee of the state, or one of its political subdivisions.

And that... spookey.

Bankruptcy is actually a good thing here as it reorganizes the finances to get on a more stable footing.

I did, and it was horribly written.

Right... so, they're "putting words" into the judge's mouth here?

This is a much better article. One which took me all of 2 seconds to find using Google.

Good read

Still think this is weird:

She also ordered that a copy of her declaratory judgment be sent to President Barack Obama, saying he “bailed out Detroit” and may want to look into the pension issue.

Obama didn't "bail out Detroit"... it bailed out the Automakers there...

Odd...

**Gentleman_Jellyfish**

Sell it to Eminem!

**whembly**

As some of you, I had to file bankruptcy personally. While I'm not an attorney, there's a gak ton of information on the web. The reason why what this state judge is doing won't stick is that the federal court system has exclusive and original jurisdiction over bankruptcies (28 USC § 133)... So this judge cannot order the case dismissed nor make a determination that the city of Detroit cannot file bankruptcy. The right to file is not impacted nor is the bankruptcy court bound by her order. The only input that states has is that they have rules which assest/credit can be discharged and by how much.

In fact, this is a good lesson in federal preemption... the federal law preempts the state law here. The MI constitution cannot strip any person or entity from it's *right* to *file* for relief under Title 11 (the US bankruptcy code); the best this judge can do is have the case before her stayed by the bankruptcy judge (which can happen) while the Detroit city bankruptcy is resolved.

But... for the sake of argument, let's say she's right. Then, I still don't understand how the MI constitution could have this extra-special authority to nullify Federal law to wish themselves unlimited amounts of other people's money. If it really works that way, what's to stop Arizona, say, from simply amending their state constitution to override Federal voter ID laws? Or Ohio from barring the enforcement of EPA coal-burning regulations?

That's why this is much ado about nuthin.

**SlaveToDorkness**

whembly wrote:

“It’s also not honoring the (United States) president, who took (Detroit’s auto companies) out of bankruptcy.”

Aquilina said she would make sure President Obama got a copy of her order.

“I know he’s watching this,”

As if he were a diety or Santa Claus....

o.O

" He sees you when you're texting, he knows when you're out late, he knows when you are downloading porn, so maker it good for goodness sake!"

I'm pretty sure our Fearless Leader is too busy finding more ways to link himself to Trayvon Martin...

**Jihadin**

Imagine the number of Relocation Camps we're going to need....

**chaos0xomega**

Hmmm... detroit has lots of empty homes...
hmmm..... this country has big homeless problem....

hmmm.......

nope, should probably just bulldoze down most of it and only leave the downtown area intact.

**Jihadin**

Plans in motion to make it a FEMA Death Camp first.....if the Relocation Camps fails.....and the ReEdumecation CaMps are beyond capacity...

**dogma**

whembly wrote:

See my drift?

Yes, but I have no idea why you think the US Constitution matters.

whembly wrote:

And that... spookey.

How so? All government employees have that ability.

whembly wrote:

Right... so, they're "putting words" into the judge's mouth here?

No. They're selectively quoting the decision in order to generate contraversy so that people will read the article.

**Jihadin**

Not US Constitution. I think its the State Constitution

**Kovnik Obama**

whembly wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
We're thinking about picking it up http://globalnews.ca/news/726916/poll-should-canada-buy-detroit/
but it would instantly double our anual murder rate

Maybe then you'd have a good staging area for the keystone pipeline!

o.O

Heeeeey... that might work. Refinerys are really knarly business... but, they can by huge swath of lands there.

A new, city-wide paintball ground.

Or, we name it 'The Canadian Protectorate of Detroit'' and make it our own new shiny tax shelter.

**azazel the cat**

Dammit, Canada has done relatively well about not buying toxic investments... and now you go an suggest we buy freakin' Detroit.

**Experiment 626**

azazel the cat wrote:
Dammit, Canada has done relatively well about not buying toxic investments... and now you go an suggest we buy freakin' Detroit.

Don't worry, it'll be the Ontario Liberals who try and buy it up...

I mean, you're talking here about the morons who bought 3 seats in the legislature for $600million and counting buy illegally cancelling 2 gas-fired power plants.
Detroit in comparison looks like a real bargain!

**Relapse**

Ouze wrote:
Hopefully they can use bankruptcy to re-organize. One thing I think they desperately need to do is move forward with their plans to blight & bulldoze a lot of those vacant homes - all those abandoned neighborhoods do nothing but breed crime, which feeds flight, which hastens the death spiral. I don't know how to deal with the rest of their problems, but this would help at least some.

I wonder if they're not eventually going to wind up under some sort of federal receivership; the problems here are too big for a single city to fix; hell, maybe too big for even the state.

Agreed.