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Ok. Now, from where are you getting the idea that a weapon must be listed in his wargear in order to be considered his?

 Happyjew wrote:

tgjensen wrote:
the same way that a Big Mek with a Shokk Attack Gun (Ordnance) can still snap fire with a Gun Emplacement after moving, even if he is barred from shooting his regular weapon.

Why are you firing Snap Shots with a Weapon Emplacement after moving?

Eh, I didn't have the rulebook at hand and just made the assumption. My point remains that restrictions on your main weapon don't apply to the Gun Emplacement.

 Happyjew wrote:

tgjensen wrote:
the same way that a Big Mek with a Shokk Attack Gun (Ordnance) can still snap fire with a Gun Emplacement after moving, even if he is barred from shooting his regular weapon.

Why are you firing Snap Shots with a Weapon Emplacement after moving?

Model moved and is firing a Heavy weapon.
How is that not snap shots?

The firing model is treated as being stationary, per the weapon emplacement rules.

 Happyjew wrote:
The firing model is treated as being stationary, per the weapon emplacement rules.

Page 105 says nothing like that.
Perhaps you're referring to something else?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
The firing model is treated as being stationary, per the weapon emplacement rules.

Page 105 says nothing like that.
Perhaps you're referring to something else?

FAQ'd.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
The firing model is treated as being stationary, per the weapon emplacement rules.

Page 105 says nothing like that.
Perhaps you're referring to something else?

FAQ'd.

Fair enough. Thanks.

I knew I had read it. Forgot it was in the FAQ.

 insaniak wrote:
Ok. Now, from where are you getting the idea that a weapon must be listed in his wargear in order to be considered his?

Pg128, Space Marine codex;

"Wargear: This entry details the equipment the models in the squad van carry"

If it isn't in his Wargear, he isn't carrying it.

Also, in regards to the 'it doesn't matter of you have a gun or not' issue.

Pg12 BRB;

"During the Shooting phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks"






Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you're gonna argue that the model doesn't have to be carrying the equipment for it to be his then I'm gonna start making my squad leaders fire the heavy weapons that another Marine is carrying. Just so you know.

if my opponent is dumb enough to put his thunderfire and quadgun all inside a nice template. I will let him fire both, he is just making my game easier.

However you are missing one piece of the puzzle "One model in base contact with the gun emplacement can fire it instead of his own weapon, following the normal rules for shooting." (105) (Emphasis Mine)

Notice the underlined part. You have to follow the normal rules for shooting.

What is a Techmarine's normal rules for shooting if the artillery is fired?

"The crewman [Techmarine] cannot fire any weapons they are carrying...." (46)

Therefore by RAW I have just justified why you can not do that.

I have already explained that he isn't carrying the Quad Gun

 AG. wrote:
I have already explained that he isn't carrying the Quad Gun

Which of course has no bearing.

When firing a gun emplacement you follow "the normal rules for shooting." (105)

What are the normal rules for shooting for a Techmarine that is firing an artillery piece?

The rules are that he cannot fire any of the weapons that he is carrying (the ones that are included in his Wargear).

The weapons that the Techmarine is carrying are;

Bolt Pistol
Servo Harness

The Techmarine is firing neither of these weapons. Therefore he is not firing any of the weapons he is carrying.

Deathreaper's argument makes no sense AG. Don't worry about it. Here is why he can only fire one weapon:

He still has to follow the normal rules for shooting, which means only one weapon per turn (unless it's his servo-weapons) since he's a regular infantry model. There's nothing in there preventing him from "manning" both (so to speak), but he still can't fire more than 1 weapon a turn. There' not his weapons, but he's still firing them, and he can't fire more than one a turn.

As for whether or not weapon-less models can fire a quad-gun, I would normally RAW it as they can't, however the FAQs on similar issues (like the Helldrake) go along the lines of you can.

 Lotus wrote:
Deathreaper's argument makes no sense AG. Don't worry about it.

Clearly you have not read what I posted, or you did not understand it.

There is no rule to say that he can't fire them both.

There is only a rule that says he can't fire more than one weapon he is carrying.

 AG. wrote:
There is no rule to say that he can't fire them both.

The rules don't say I can't place my models back on the board after you've killed them and use them next turn, but that doesn't mean I can do it.

The rules don't say I can't roll ten dice and if any of them are a 1,2,3,4, or 5 then that is an automatic win for me, but that doesn't mean I can do it.

The rules don't say I can't paint over all of your models eyes so your models can not assault or shoot anything, but that doesn't mean I can do it.

The rules system is permissive: this means you may only do things you are expressly allowed to do or that the rules imply you can do. You are not allowed to do anything else.

 AG. wrote:
There is no rule to say that he can't fire them both.

There is only a rule that says he can't fire more than one weapon he is carrying.

Except for that pesky paragraph about More Than One Weapon on page 51 which states a model can only fire 1 weapon in the shooting phase (unless otherwise stated).

Well, great job on invalidating your opinion due to idiocy.

Any other sensible points are perfectly welcome.

Do you have a page and graph that says he can fire more than one weapon?

MC's have such a rule, does the Techmarine?

It doesn't say that;

It says

"Unless otherwise stated, if a model has more than one Shooting weapon, he must choose one to shoot - he cannot fire both [of the weapons he has] in the same Shooting phase"

Again I refer you to the fact that the Techmarine doesn't 'have' either of the weapons in this circumstance.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
DeathReaper;

Any model can fire multiple weapons, as long as those weapons aren't listed on their Wargear page, and they are somehow eligible to fire them.

It happens that in this case, the Techmarine is eligible to fire both weeps and neither of them are 'his'

A model can only fire multiple weapons if there is an allowance to fire two weapons.

MC's have such a rule, does the Techmarine?

 AG. wrote:
Pg128, Space Marine codex;

"Wargear: This entry details the equipment the models in the squad van carry"

If it isn't in his Wargear, he isn't carrying it.

Why does he have to be carrying it for it to be considered 'his'...?

If you're gonna argue that the model doesn't have to be carrying the equipment for it to be his then I'm gonna start making my squad leaders fire the heavy weapons that another Marine is carrying. Just so you know.

What would be your rules basis for doing that?

In the case of the Marine with a heavy weapon, the rules assign that weapon to one model when you choose it. So it's fairly clear that the weapon belongs to that one model.
In the case of an artillery unit, you have a weapon and a number of crewmembers who can fire it. Since they can all fire it, that weapon belongs to all of them. Or in this particular case, to the techmarine.

Nope, a model can only fire multiple weapons he is carrying if there is an allowance for him to fire multiple weapons he is carrying

Are you saying that the word 'carrying' in the specific rules on firing multiple weapons isn't important?

Every word in the BRB is just as important as every other word, that's how a rule system works. You can't just ignore words because they don't fit into how you think it should work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

 AG. wrote:
Pg128, Space Marine codex;

"Wargear: This entry details the equipment the models in the squad van carry"

If it isn't in his Wargear, he isn't carrying it.

Why does he have to be carrying it for it to be considered 'his'...?

If you're gonna argue that the model doesn't have to be carrying the equipment for it to be his then I'm gonna start making my squad leaders fire the heavy weapons that another Marine is carrying. Just so you know.

What would be your rules basis for doing that?

In the case of the Marine with a heavy weapon, the rules assign that weapon to one model when you choose it. So it's fairly clear that the weapon belongs to that one model.
In the case of an artillery unit, you have a weapon and a number of crewmembers who can fire it. Since they can all fire it, that weapon belongs to all of them. Or in this particular case, to the techmarine.

So, the heavy weapon is assigned to the marine. It becomes part of his Wargear (as it replaces something already in his Wargear e.g. the Boltgun).

At this point, if the item of Wargear he is carrying isn't 'his' (as per your first point re: carrying and ownership) then another model could use it, because the vice versa is also true - if the model doesn't have to have the weapon in his Wargear in order for it to be 'his' then he can fire it.

 AG. wrote:

Any model can fire multiple weapons, as long as those weapons aren't listed on their Wargear page, and they are somehow eligible to fire them.

It happens that in this case, the Techmarine is eligible to fire both weeps and neither of them are 'his'

Not how permissive rule set works.

Models are only given permission to fire one weapon.

Gunslinger is an exception if the model has 2 pistols. MC's have an exception. Vehicles have exceptions.

Your claim has no rules backing.

 AG. wrote:
At this point, if the item of Wargear he is carrying isn't 'his' (as per your first point re: carrying and ownership)

What? I never said that carrying it doesn't make it his. I said that carrying the weapon isn't defined as the sole criteria for determining ownership.

The heavy weapon belongs to the Marine because it is purchased for him specifically. Similarly, an Eldar weapons platform belongs to the Guardian that it is purchased for... even though he isn't carrying it.

Right, but where are you finding your definition of ownership?

I think that will help us all out.

Well, apart from DeathReaper. He seems intent on ignoring the BRB.

I asked you the same thing, and you haven't yet provided an answer, just the assumption that 'carrying equals owning'.

Which is exactly the point. The rules don't define what is required to claim ownership of the weapon. Ordinarily, that's not an issue, since when you look at the unit, you can tell which weapon belongs to which model, because they are holding it.

In the case of artillery, though, the weapon is a separate model. But there is no rules basis for assuming that the weapon doesn't belong to the model that fires it, in the same way that an eldar platform still belongs to it's crew, and a bolter being carried by a lackey still belongs to an Inquisitor.

 AG. wrote:
Right, but where are you finding your definition of ownership?

I think that will help us all out.

Well, apart from DeathReaper. He seems intent on ignoring the BRB.

I am not ignoring it.

There needs to be a rule that says you can fire two weapons in the same shooting phase as this is a permissive ruleset.

What page and Graph is the rule that says the Techmarine can fire more than one weapon?