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Ok then

Bikes and Jetbikes can "make a special turbo boost move instead of firing in their shooting phase."

So by your logic Screamers cannot turbo boost, but wait they have a special rule that states that they make slash attacks with htier turbo boost move, oops screamers cannot do that.



Smash

A model can choose to instead make a smash instead of making normal attacks.

So this replaces normal attacks, but lends no creedence to your statement.


Run:" Durning the Shooting Phase units may choose to run instead of firing."

So by your logic units without ranged weapons cannot run

Sorry homaguants, I know you have a special rule concerning running, but too bad

You to Seekers, and Daemonettes your special rule doesn't work

Lets see

All most beasts now cannot run
Genestealers
Assault Terminators....

Sorry list would end up a bit long.

 AG. wrote:
Stating 'RAW' after you've just made a statement that it clearly against the rules that are written is not the way to get your opinion validated.

I think the best way to look at the 'instead' definition is to find other examples of it being used in the BRB, rather than the Dicitonary/popular concensus.

Okay, well since you are the one trying to make a game braking raw argument, they you have to find the uses in the BRB of instead that support your argument.

 AG. wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Given that your the only one arguing this position against everyone else should be a clue that your wrong.

That's a very strange way to look at the world.

Considering that the rules on pg 69 clearly spell out that they can use Witchfire powers, even with your unique interpretations, all your arguments are moot.

cryhavok wrote:

 AG. wrote:
Stating 'RAW' after you've just made a statement that it clearly against the rules that are written is not the way to get your opinion validated.

I think the best way to look at the 'instead' definition is to find other examples of it being used in the BRB, rather than the Dicitonary/popular concensus.

Okay, well since you are the one trying to make a game braking raw argument, they you have to find the uses in the BRB of instead that support your argument.

See above I already found some for him, and only one works at all with his interpretation of instead.

Also agree with the poster above who stated, "instead of firing a weapon" =\= "instead of firing his weapn"

Really? Because if I was in a room and claimed the walls to be red, but the other 20 people in the room said they were blue, I would question my ability to see the right colour.

That's a really terrible example.

Colour isn't a tangible 'truth'. It is a named designation to the way in which our eyes percieve the reflected waves of light.

This perception can be altered in many different ways, by many different factors.

20 people may be affected by these factors, when you may not be. The reflected waves of light dont change, but the named designation does.

But anyway, I know what you mean. I just dont think that overwhelming opinion should change the way you think about something without examining the facts of the matter and coming to your own conclusion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

cryhavok wrote:


Okay, well since you are the one trying to make a game braking raw argument, they you have to find the uses in the BRB of instead that support your argument.

I'm currently looking for other uses of the word 'instead'.

 AG. wrote:

Okay, well since you are the one trying to make a game braking raw argument, they you have to find the uses in the BRB of instead that support your argument.

I'm currently looking for other uses of the word 'instead'.

You are looking into the wrong rules.

Can we agree that you dont want to make a shooting attack but manifest a psychic power (which is a witchfire power)?

Can we also agree that the only additional restrictions to manifest a witchpower (besides the normal psychic power restrictions like having a warp charge) are

A) Line of Sight
B) Not being locked in combat
C) Didnt run in the shooting phase
D) Manifesting the power instead of firing a weapon

Per p.69.

If you agree. Given the requirements are met i have permission to cast AND resolve my power. Which involves (given it was succesful cast) making a shooting attack against the target. There is no restriction to have to be able to make a shooting attack with a weapon you own.

Codex overrules BRB, Codex say's pink horrors and such can shoot. I'm ok with this.

Its irrelevant. A Witchfire counts as firing an assault weapon. Which means that anyone with a BS >0 can do it.

 Mywik wrote:


You are looking into the wrong rules.

Can we agree that you dont want to make a shooting attack but manifest a psychic power (which is a witchfire power)?

Can we also agree that the only additional restrictions to manifest a witchpower (besides the normal psychic power restrictions like having a warp charge) are

A) Line of Sight -
B) Not being locked in combat
C) Didnt run in the shooting phase
D) Manifesting the power instead of firing a weapon

Per p.69.

If you agree. Given the requirements are met i have permission to cast AND resolve my power. Which involves (given it was succesful cast) making a shooting attack against the target. There is no restriction to be able to make a shooting attack with a weapon you own.

I'm quite happy to agree that the crux of the discussion is the use of the term 'instead'.

Also, you're correct that manifesting psychic power doesn't use the same rules as making a shooting attack - we can remove that part from my side of the discussion.

 AG. wrote:

Really? Because if I was in a room and claimed the walls to be red, but the other 20 people in the room said they were blue, I would question my ability to see the right colour.

That's a really terrible example.

Colour isn't a tangible 'truth'. It is a named designation to the way in which our eyes percieve the reflected waves of light.

This perception can be altered in many different ways, by many different factors.

20 people may be affected by these factors, when you may not be. The reflected waves of light dont change, but the named designation does.

But anyway, I know what you mean. I just dont think that overwhelming opinion should change the way you think about something without examining the facts of the matter and coming to your own conclusion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

cryhavok wrote:


Okay, well since you are the one trying to make a game braking raw argument, they you have to find the uses in the BRB of instead that support your argument.

I'm currently looking for other uses of the word 'instead'.

That makes it a "tangible truth" since the designation could be misperceived. And the example was perfect. The chances of all the others being wrong about the colour and me being right are pretty low, compared to the chances that I'm wrong and they are right.

And I already gave you another use of the word "instead." But since that invalidated your point, you ignored it. Well done.

I see your point, interesting discussion and your interpretation of RAW has merit. Tricky word that 'instead'!



BRB pg12 wrote:
"During the Shooting phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks"

A shooting attack is never made, this quote is irrelevant.


BRB pg69; wrote:
"Witchfire powers are manifested during the Psyker's Shooting phase instead of firing a weapon"


Depending on that tricky 'instead' a case could be made that a Psyker without a ranged weapon HAS to manifest a Witchfire power!

Can the psyker fire a weapon?

NO. Psyker manifests a Witchfire power instead.

 Daedricbob wrote:
"Witchfire powers are manifested during the Psyker's Shooting phase instead of firing a weapon"
Depending on that tricky 'instead' a case could be made that a Psyker without a ranged weapon HAS to manifest a Witchfire power!

Hah, that's a damn good point. Taken in isolation, you can also read that line as having to fire a Witchfire regardless of whatever weapons you do or don't have!!

"instead of firing a weapon" does not mean you have to actually have a weapon in the first place.

It just means that you can not use a Witchfire and shoot a gun in the same shooting phase.

Simpler put yes they can. It's in the brb.

Haha. AG is running as the troll king for this weekend. Great job!

Munga wrote:
Haha. AG is running as the troll king for this weekend. Great job!

True or not, was this really necessary?

 AG. wrote:

 Mywik wrote:


You are looking into the wrong rules.

Can we agree that you dont want to make a shooting attack but manifest a psychic power (which is a witchfire power)?

Can we also agree that the only additional restrictions to manifest a witchpower (besides the normal psychic power restrictions like having a warp charge) are

A) Line of Sight -
B) Not being locked in combat
C) Didnt run in the shooting phase
D) Manifesting the power instead of firing a weapon

Per p.69.

If you agree. Given the requirements are met i have permission to cast AND resolve my power. Which involves (given it was succesful cast) making a shooting attack against the target. There is no restriction to be able to make a shooting attack with a weapon you own.

I'm quite happy to agree that the crux of the discussion is the use of the term 'instead'.

Also, you're correct that manifesting psychic power doesn't use the same rules as making a shooting attack - we can remove that part from my side of the discussion.

You're taking the permission the wrong way. You have explicit permission to manifest a witchfire power in the shooting phase if you are capable of doing so. If you exercise that permission, you no longer have permission to make a ranged attack with a ranged weapon ("make a shooting attack"). Permission to manifest a witchfire power does not hinge on whether or not a model fulfills the requirements to shoot with a normal ranged weapon, on the contrary whether or not a model can shoot with a ranged weapon is limited by whether or not they manifested a witchfire power.