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 Warpig1815 wrote:
Plus, a day off every 10 days? I really don't think the IoM has even heard of week-ends.

Probably not, but people get to rest on local church holidays which might be pretty many if you have a whole lot of saints to venerate. OK, some work on your worshipping is also required for those... but it's less work than a twelve-hour shift in a machine shop.

Yep, it'd be a day of religious observations. A "holiday" in the literal sense of the word.

Where would the Imperium get the resources to run hives like it's 1989? We already know the arbiters are hands-off when it comes to local laws. Thus, in order to run things like 1984, it'd be up to the planetary governors, and we have yet to see an example of such a governor pulling off anything like that in ANY fluff story. The Imperium simply doesn't have the manpower OR the technology for it (Imperial Surveillance technology has never really been portrayed as particularly all-knowing).

Heck, if Necromunda is any indication, most hives are friggin' mad houses. Some hives make good Space Marine or Imperial Guard recruitment places cause they're as deadly as death worlds, for crying out loud..

Go to the wikis and browse every single planet there is in there. You won't find a single one as described as having the Imperium watching over people like Big Brother. It's simply unrealistic.

.....er, are we still talking about freedom of speech? Re-reading your reply, you seem to have switched the topic to work hours or something.

They do it through the Ecclesiarchy.

Citizen A goes to Church on Sunday. He goes into the confessional booth, "Forgive me, Father, I have sinned against the God-Emperor. I overheard a fellow citizen blaspheme against His Most Holy Tithe Collection Service Bursar Phineus Goldenblatz, and I did not take immediate corrective action."

Priest behind the curtain: "Tell me, my son, did you know the citizen who made the blasphemy?"

Citizen: "I do, Father. It was Goody Mawlwalls from Hab-Block 23-Mid-Delta."

Priest: "Say fifteen 'Ave Imperators' and donate fifty throne gelt on your next pay cycle, and you will be forgiven by the God-Emperor, who is our savior, and receive his blessing."

... after the Citizen leaves, the Priest is on the horn to the Arbites, the Sisterhood, the Inquisition or just the local Governor's "Morality Squad" police forces to make Goody Mawlwalls disappear into a re-education camp, or be burned at the pyre after a confession of heresy is wrung from her.

Just like in 1984. Citizens spy on other citizens, because the greatest threat to Mankind is the Enemy Within.

"Citizens, the Emperor protects, but He cannot be everywhere if we cannot maintain our vigilance! We must guard against the Blasphemer, the Heretic, the Mutant and the Witch! If you observe any of these degenerates amongst us... if you even *think* you have observed these stains upon the honor of our Hive, most blessed in the eyes of the God-Emperor, report them! Call for the Arbites!"

Do ecclesiarchs do confessionals? Most official artworks I've seen of them, it's like, a few priests in front of like, THOUSANDS of worshippers. I'd think they'd die of old age if they tried to hold regular preacher-to-individual meetings of any quantity.

To be honest, what Psienesis has just described there isn't too far-fetched. It is known that during the Second World War, the Gestapo organisation was tiny in effect (Believe it or not, but they had only 1 officer for every 30,000 people), however, due to the fear or reprisal and propaganda tactics, they were highly effective. This all comes down to the fact that the Gestapo scared the out of the Germans, who in turn informed upon each other in order to keep on the Gestapo's good side. I can very much imagine the same happening in the IoM: A small body of law-enforcers, perhaps not the Arbites but a local version, managing crime via the informing of the citizens.

Just something to point out about Planetary Governors: they are not normally chosen by any Imperial authorities. Whoever is the PG and however they got that position, the Imperium (and by that, I mean Terra and the wider Imperial authorities) will stamp the seal of approval so long as no heresy was involved and they're still getting their tithes. There could be a dictatorial PG whom the people overthrow and put a liberal oligarchy in its place. The Imperium doesn't care.

Also, the Ecclesiarchy is not omni-present either. The Ecclesiarchy can actually be considered its own frigging state within the state (which is why the Ordo Hereticus keeps its eye on it). Just as the Adeptus Mechanicus is it's own semi-independent empire, the Ecclesiarchy can be considered the same, since it has its own planets, its own military forces, and it extends its hand into the Imperium on many worlds. However, like I said, the Ecclesiarchy is not omni-present. In terms of religious belief, the Ecclesiarchy is vastly outnumbered by the individual beliefs across the universe. In terms of man-power, it doesn't have a massive presence across the Imperium. Just as with the PGs getting the Terran stamp of approval, religions across the Imperium get Ecclesiarchy approval provided they're not heretical.

And as I said earlier, the Imperium is not Nineteen Eighty-Four, because Oceania in that novel is extremely efficient - it seems like nobody can beat the system and evade the Thought Police. In 40k, they can beat the system and slip by the authorities.

Chaos Cults would be a lot easier to find if Warhammer 40k was like 1984. However, as it is, the Inquisition and Arbites have a hell of a time rooting them out.

According to Lexicanum, this is a quote from a White Dwarf article on the Arbites:

There are crystal lenses and sound wave detectors on that tower that can watch citizens and listen to their conversations 100 leagues away, Imperial spy satellites watch what they can't see directly...

I think that's as close as you're going to get to Orwellian surveillance in 40k.

Yes, the Ecclesiarchy is *everywhere*. It informs every level of Imperial life. Unified faith in the God-Emperor is the glue that holds the Imperium together. Does it do so perfectly? Of course not. It wouldn't be grimdark if it was, but it also explains why the Chaos Cults we *do* hear about almost always end up being a Major Problem. The lesser ones, the ones that make mistakes, are purged with frightening regularity... enough that it allows factions like the Arbites or the local PDF or police to get lax. A moment of laxity...

"Orwellian surveillance" included one character's own children turning him in to the Ministry of Love. There's no super-tech required, just an ingrained hatred of the mutant, the heretic and the witch, a very fuzzy definition of what constitutes heresy, mutation and witchery, and a willingness to believe that by turning in your friends and neighbors, you are doing the right thing and will be rewarded.

On top of that, you have absolute legions (as in, actually tens of thousands) of Adepts of the Administratum that handle the pay, taxation and tithe records, down to the minutest detail. They notice that Bobby R. Smith from Hive Stack 8798-Zeta Epsilon is twenty-three minutes late to his second work shift every third Thursday of every second month. This happens regularly enough to invite suspicion, so the Adept reports this to the local police forces, who report it down the chain to the police in that hab-block level. One day, a random beat-cop does an inspection. Maybe he finds out that Bobby R. Smith has been having a fling with a girl from round the way who works in the rendering-vats... or maybe he finds out that Bobby R. Smith is following the ritual practices of a proscribed cult.

The Chaos Cults that "get away with it" are the ones who have the resources to deflect suspicion and avoid investigation. This includes the Pleasure Cults of the Hive Nobility, who have the strings to pull to keep the local police away, and the Battle-cults of the Underhive, that engage in gladitorial matches, Carnigora, and other devotions to the Blood God, and the hidden cells of degenerates living in the filthy warrens of the Underhives, breeding plagues and contagions for Nurgle.

The thing is though that it depends on which planet. Quiet little agri-worlds can have citizens who aren't even aware that they're part of the Imperium.

Oh, most certainly... but an Agri-World is probably not going to house a Chaos Cult. The population is too low, the people too scattered, and even though the local populace doesn't know they belong to the Imperium, there's still an Arbites presence.

There's also the fact that the Agri-World has no ability to move from the Agri-World to elsewhere in the galaxy. It's Planet Potato-Ho. Most importantly, however, given that 40K is a game that uses tropes in all of its settings, the Agri-World population is probably as devoted to the Imperial Creed as those from a Shrine World.