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Eyjio wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:



No, solar pulses are a complete waste of points. As soon as you attempt to use one the other players will say "no, and if you don't like it get out of our game" and probably never invite you back.

You must play some real fun guys. I dunno about you, but I tend to play people I like and enjoy myself with them rather than throwing a fit over nothing. If you think people will ban something which neuters Titans or complain it's unfair in Apocalypse, you're living in a cloud. Hell, old Apoc had night fight the first turns anyway, why would people complain that's coming back? That's not even mentioning the Stormlord's passive ability. No, people will be completely fine with it.

Hrm, from, experience, no they won't. Exactly this sort of thing led an apoc game to collapse last weekend as I watched. Most groups will house-rule those to only have a limited range (36-72"), otherwise they can shut down games *real* fast. These sorts of things don't make the game fun.

Eyjio wrote:
As far as I was aware, S10 AP2 is pretty good vs tanks.

Not really. It's only good in normal 40k (though much worse than melta) because you don't have D-weapons.

I mean, come on, we've been through this - D weapons do not kill hordes well enough.

And, in my experience, hordes standing around without some kind of non-LOS-based cover save pretty much don't exist. If you have timed turns (a requirement for getting a game to ever finish) you don't bring infantry hordes.

Are you going to try and tell me Apoc games last 2 turns at most again too?

In my experience 2-3 turns is optimistic, and the games that lasted three turns were pretty much over by the end of the second turn and people started packing up and leaving before the third turn was over.

I dunno about you, but I tend to play people I like and enjoy myself with them rather than throwing a fit over nothing.

This just shows how little you understand: night fighting in Apocalypse isn't "nothing", it completely shuts down the game. The one game I played in that involved night fighting had the first turn ruined by it, to the point that we told our teammate to voluntarily turn it off for the second turn. Meanwhile our opponents had so little fun that the game didn't even make it halfway through the second turn before people started leaving.

And of course if you add the lightning ability you're taking an absurd amount of time while the Necron player gets to remove thousands of points from the table each turn.

Eyjio wrote:
It literally states it is one unit. As in, it has a rule called infinite phalanx that says "All of the Necron Warrior units form a single combined unit known as an Infinite Phalanx". I need to go read Szeras' rule now to see if it says Necron Warrior unit or unit of Necron Warriors - it it's the latter, 150 buffed Warriors could be fun. Not to mention how incredibly powerful Night Fight is in Apocalypse, so Solar Pulses are a must.

Good news everybody!
It's a unit of Necron Warriors and the entire unit gets the upgrade.
The 3+ Reanimation also works on all models, so even Characters with EL.
Szeras in that group will give them Defensive Grenades, which is awesome.

I just hate his S5-upgrade.
Although 150+ Warriors with S5, 3+ RP, Fear and Fearless is a blob I would NOT want to assault.

I get that there are some complaints and feelings of displeasure in the old Apoc, but how many people who didn't like that have played a game of the current Apoc, or at least watched one?

I'm curious on how much of this is held over dislike of the old game, and how much of this is based around the new one.

EDIT:

Kangodo wrote:

Eyjio wrote:
It literally states it is one unit. As in, it has a rule called infinite phalanx that says "All of the Necron Warrior units form a single combined unit known as an Infinite Phalanx". I need to go read Szeras' rule now to see if it says Necron Warrior unit or unit of Necron Warriors - it it's the latter, 150 buffed Warriors could be fun. Not to mention how incredibly powerful Night Fight is in Apocalypse, so Solar Pulses are a must.

Good news everybody!
It's a unit of Necron Warriors and the entire unit gets the upgrade.
The 3+ Reanimation also works on all models, so even Characters with EL.
Szeras in that group will give them Defensive Grenades, which is awesome.

I just hate his S5-upgrade.
Although 150+ Warriors with S5, 3+ RP, Fear and Fearless is a blob I would NOT want to assault.

The formation also has Relentless.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Eyjio wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:



No, solar pulses are a complete waste of points. As soon as you attempt to use one the other players will say "no, and if you don't like it get out of our game" and probably never invite you back.

You must play some real fun guys. I dunno about you, but I tend to play people I like and enjoy myself with them rather than throwing a fit over nothing. If you think people will ban something which neuters Titans or complain it's unfair in Apocalypse, you're living in a cloud. Hell, old Apoc had night fight the first turns anyway, why would people complain that's coming back? That's not even mentioning the Stormlord's passive ability. No, people will be completely fine with it.

Hrm, from, experience, no they won't. Exactly this sort of thing led an apoc game to collapse last weekend as I watched. Most groups will house-rule those to only have a limited range (36-72"), otherwise they can shut down games *real* fast. These sorts of things don't make the game fun.

I've had them used against me and used them myself and no-one has ever had an issue. For long range shooting, you light things up with a searchlight (assuming your army doesn't just ignore night fighting like DE). Most guns are less than 36" range anyway other than artillery and Super Heavies, who use others searchlights. They certainly don't shut down games unless your plan was to sit back with a big gun line. In fact, it tends to make people take an answer to assault as there's half a chance of getting there if you can limit the shooting coming your way.

Peregrine, you sound silly now. We've been through the fact Titans can move round cover with their huge moves before. I've never played timed games and never had an issue getting to at least T5. If your opponents don't know how to combat NF, didn't prepare for it and are unwilling to use it, well, that's your groups fault. Please though, tell me how little I understand. Your argument against the blast gun sounds exactly like someone who doesn't know why people would take plasma over melta when both kill infantry but only one kills tanks - you use the 10" blast because it's twice as large an area as 2 large blasts yet kills infantry pretty much just as well. The more you talk, the more it sounds like you're playing with people who don't know how to play and who dislike each other.

ClockworkZion wrote:
The formation also has Relentless.

Ooh dear lord.
I'm glad that I am the Necron-player in my group, otherwise I'd be peeing in my pants right now.

 Peregrine wrote:
This just shows how little you understand: night fighting in Apocalypse isn't "nothing", it completely shuts down the game.

I think the new Apocalypse rules have something you might enjoy after all.
The only mission that includes Night Fighting is the one that places your armies within 36" of each other.

I wouldn't use the Unnatural Disasters. I understand their purpose (speed the game up by killing lots of stuff at random), but at that point, you're not really playing the game, are you? You're just playing the odds.

I am a little annoyed that many formations have been increased in size. No more 3 Leman Russ or 3 Basilisk formations for me, now I would need 9.

The Divine Intervention stuff is cool, but it sucks that Necrons have to field one of three specific models (and then lose that model) to get it. I like how Space Marine chapters can get their own Finest Hour abilities, but I would like to see a variant list for pre-Heresy purposes (what would loyalist Emperor's Children get, for example?).

I would personally roll back D weapons closer to the older rules: auto-penetrate/wound with no cover or armor saves, and it also causes d3 hull points or wounds. Still nasty against infantry, can still pop most normal vehicles with one shot, and a threat to super heavies. While still making other weapons viable.

Overall, I do like it, though.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
I wouldn't use the Unnatural Disasters. I understand their purpose (speed the game up by killing lots of stuff at random), but at that point, you're not really playing the game, are you? You're just playing the odds.

I am a little annoyed that many formations have been increased in size. No more 3 Leman Russ or 3 Basilisk formations for me, now I would need 9.

The Divine Intervention stuff is cool, but it sucks that Necrons have to field one of three specific models (and then lose that model) to get it. I like how Space Marine chapters can get their own Finest Hour abilities, but I would like to see a variant list for pre-Heresy purposes (what would loyalist Emperor's Children get, for example?).

I would personally roll back D weapons closer to the older rules: auto-penetrate/wound with no cover or armor saves, and it also causes d3 hull points or wounds. Still nasty against infantry, can still pop most normal vehicles with one shot, and a threat to super heavies. While still making other weapons viable.

Overall, I do like it, though.

There are things that can still trigger Unnatural Disasters though (burrowing Vortex templates come to mind).

Necrons only have to lose one model for theirs to trigger, Imperial armies have to lose half, and Eldar armies have to lose a specific number of models.

The flip side is that old D-Weapons didn't do much to kill Gargantuan Creatures, and then you also give Necron players a reason to spam Lynchguard: they'd be able to -bounce- the D-weapon into enemy models.

The current method is at least partially balanced by the ability to get things back (albiet by spending victory points) and some formations even giving you free replacement units (Cultists for instance).

I love the new rules, and look forward to our upcoming game.

All of the new content seems great, but there does seem to be a few things missing...(either they missed them, or I could not find them).

- can super heavies (and gargs) be locked in combat?
- gargs can't tank shock?
- gargs and super heavies aren't immune to controlling psy powers?
- gargs seem really weak against titan D weapons...
- only marines can get vortex weapons?

We have decided to NOT house rule anything in our upcoming game, but I would love to hear some mature thoughts on the things I listed above regarding their impact in the game.

thanks!

Eyjio wrote:

I've had them used against me and used them myself and no-one has ever had an issue.

When it shuts down one side (or largely) it can be, especially when it comes to something like the Crypteks being done every turn of the game for 45pts. Also having to deal with Imotek hitting 12-18ft worth of packed deployment zone's worth of units gets tiresome very quickly, both from a purely mechanic perspective, and a "most abused 200somethingpts ever" perspective. Having some 30pt IG Officer of the Fleet force outflank rerolls on formations as the enter when he's not even within 6ft of a table edge can really also put a damper on things. Apoc shouldn't be about such stuff.

For long range shooting, you light things up with a searchlight (assuming your army doesn't just ignore night fighting like DE).

That needs a searrchlight at every unit you want to engage, which isn't anywhere near possible, and *really* shuts down infantry heavy weapons and barrage weapons. With the size of apoc tables (assuming you're not trying to fit a game on a normal table) range really does very much become an issue.

Most guns are less than 36" range anyway other than artillery and Super Heavies, who use others searchlights.

In apoc you get a much greater profusion of long range weapons, nobody is advancing hordes of marines to engage stuff with bolters, and you often get a greater profusion of stuff like Barrage weapons, which Nightfight will pretty much negate entirely for what they're being brought for.

They certainly don't shut down games unless your plan was to sit back with a big gun line.

Have you seen most Apoc tables?

In fact, it tends to make people take an answer to assault as there's half a chance of getting there if you can limit the shooting coming your way.

This assumes you know its coming, that the other side is using it to advance assault units, etc, and if you're having to Meta it that much, then most people won't want to bother. Just like Flank March in the previous incarnation quickly led to Apoc tables being ringed with 2" spread Kroot and Guardsmen units and other ridiculousness that quickly often left a bad taste about Apoc for many gamers.

davethepak wrote:
I love the new rules, and look forward to our upcoming game.

All of the new content seems great, but there does seem to be a few things missing...(either they missed them, or I could not find them).

- can super heavies (and gargs) be locked in combat?

They seem to have removed the rule stating that they can't be locked, so they can. It makes trying to catch a Phantom Titan easier at least.

davethepak wrote:
- can super heavies (and gargs) be locked in combat?

Yes, they can now.

- gargs can't tank shock?

Yup.

- gargs and super heavies aren't immune to controlling psy powers?

Also yup, which is both a blessing and a curse.

- gargs seem really weak against titan D weapons...

No weaker than anything else. It's true though, you will need to protect them now.

- only marines can get vortex weapons?

Anyone can use the fortification but otherwise yes, it would appear so.

Also of note: stomping has changed substantially and is generally weaker, but you do not sacrifice anything to use it.

 Vaktathi wrote:
When it shuts down one side (or largely) it can be, especially when it comes to something like the Crypteks being done every turn of the game for 45pts. Also having to deal with Imotek hitting 12-18ft worth of packed deployment zone's worth of units gets tiresome very quickly, both from a purely mechanic perspective, and a "most abused 200somethingpts ever" perspective. Having some 30pt IG Officer of the Fleet force outflank rerolls on formations as the enter when he's not even within 6ft of a table edge can really also put a damper on things. Apoc shouldn't be about such stuff.

I don't know anyone who hates their allies enough for them to not use a solar pulse to stop Imotekh's lightning. You literally just use him to force Night Fight unless you feel that all your allies needed to be crippled. Sure, I can see some people doing it but still, it doesn't take that long to roll a d6 per unit within 72" then only hit things where you've rolled a 6. It takes a while, sure, but no longer than anything else. The officer of the fleet is barely even useful either unless you're outflanking a flyer or fast vehicle due to the new reserve rules. Even before that, I rarely saw outflanking unless it was something like the new Kroot formation where you just picked a side - even without the reroll, the chance to come in from the wrong side and be almost useless is far too high. Same thing with Deep Strikes - you only really see them from units that don't scatter or don't mishap for whatever reason. If your group doesn't allow them then that's their prerogative but they're far from too good IMO.

That needs a searrchlight at every unit you want to engage, which isn't anywhere near possible, and *really* shuts down infantry heavy weapons and barrage weapons. With the size of apoc tables (assuming you're not trying to fit a game on a normal table) range really does very much become an issue.

No, it means you either deploy close or take enough transports. D weapons kill vehicles. Night Fight limits D weapons. You need vehicles to light up targets for long range shooting and almost every vehicle in the game has access to either night vision or a searchlight. What it does is force mobility and makes people actually take light cheap vehicles which otherwise would just be cannon fodder. On top of that, anything that has fired is visible so it forces choices past "fire all guns at everything and wait for the enemy" which is extremely dull. You don't need one for EVERY target and if you don't use NF there's little point in things like Green Tide or assault formations - they'll be shot off the board before they reach anything at all. That's certainly not the game I want to play and it seems my area agrees with me because it introduces variety. I mean, have you never seen a Stormlord infantry ferry? Did you think all the massive infantry super heavy transports were added as a cruel joke or something?

In apoc you get a much greater profusion of long range weapons, nobody is advancing hordes of marines to engage stuff with bolters, and you often get a greater profusion of stuff like Barrage weapons, which Nightfight will pretty much negate entirely for what they're being brought for.

See above. You're just describing a static gun line fight. No-one in your area is advancing marines because they probably can't, not because of the game design. Yeah, you know what, it does limit barrage. Why? Because there should be some reason to keep important units at the back (hence making deep striking a decent idea) as otherwise everyone should just play IG artillery companies. Again, not fun.

Have you seen most Apoc tables?

No, I don't have the privilege of knowing "most" tables. I have seen an awful lot of them though and they've all had good amounts of terrain. Hell, look at the Warhammer World boards - barring the 6x4 planet bowling ball that everyone hates, all the apoc boards have huge pieces of terrain and stuff all over. Again, it sounds like you're building for gun lines. It's not hard to get a decent layout with cover and I'm sorry if that's the sort of board you're playing on because it sounds boring.

This assumes you know its coming, that the other side is using it to advance assault units, etc, and if you're having to Meta it that much, then most people won't want to bother. Just like Flank March in the previous incarnation quickly led to Apoc tables being ringed with 2" spread Kroot and Guardsmen units and other ridiculousness that quickly often left a bad taste about Apoc for many gamers.

Why would you ever assume it wasn't coming? In the old book you had to house rule it out so it wasn't used (which I actually agree with before 6e as NF was a pain in the ass to roll for every unit but in 6e is silly). In this one, there is an extremely popular army that uses it and some of the Warlord traits (which you still get unless I'm misreading) also force NF. Hardly "meta" IMO to assume you might have to face something that isn't a colossal gun line (which in old Apoc Necrons dominated with Pylons and the monolith formation shielding entire armies, even moreso than IG artillery spam). I will give you that flank march was very silly before but now that's also been nerfed. You can't say on one hand that D weapons are too good, then say it's unfair to limit Titans because infantry heavy weapons should be able to sit back and fire with impunity. I'm sorry but that doesn't add up - either long range shooting is too good and needs to have restrictions OR it's fine and the restrictions are too powerful.

Apologies for being very close to the necrothreading limit (By a whole day) but due to Totalwargamer, my Apocalypse book just turned up today and I was thinking of doing the same sort of thread. On the other hand, it did drop the book down to a reasonable price.

Having had a flick through of the book, I can't say I'm loving it.

They've only fixed a couple of the problems from the last edition, failed to fix most of them and made some worse.
A mate of mine has a warhound titan, now not only can it come back from the dead once, it can do it multiple times...

All the fortifications require the Aquila Strongpoint. Of course, typical GW but it's annoying that I've already paid out for a "Fortress of Redemption" plus a load of planetstrike stuff and now I'm stuck needing to take yet another fortress.

There seems to be a load of random rolls, one use only and random 'at the start of the turn' effects that I'm never going to remember to do. That's without mentioning the previously discussed disaster table.

My Imperial Guard formations range from literally cannot be used in a normal apocalypse game to terrible.

So, my "Imperial Shield" company went from being able to build a rather neat and awesome looking 'base' (see earlier comments), to, as far as I can see, only being applicable if we decide to use this 'scheduled breaks' set up..

Most of the others are just simply unaffordable. Though I have a slightly concerning suspicion that I actually could field a heavy weapons company... I've got 6 chimeras, it would have been nice to have a formation where I could field them together, but no, I'd need at least 10. At a minimum.

On the bright side, the Space marine formations look fine and my mates Grey Knights would probably be quite happy. Tau ones look quite reasonable as well.

We played an APO battle at the weekend, 4 vs. 4. I found that its a great game with great rules. Don't go out with Super Heavies as they are the icing on the cake.
After the battle we dediced to play another battle in October, with 3000 pts per player and each player can field one Super Heavy.
Don't count too much on larger formations. Formations can only come back when they are fully destroyed and this will hardly happen to a full company or whatnot. This could work for smaller formations, like three Dreadknights and it did work for me yesterday.