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Made in gb
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot




Look, wraiths are seriously over powered so there's just no point comparing them with anything else. Consider: a PS is normally 45pts for your overlord; with a wraith this is free. They are almost unkillable in combat and with S6 rending, and reductions to enemy Initiative they are an absolute menace to all. Combine with a d-lord with MSS and a scythe they are one of the top, if not the top, close combat unit around (point for point, anyway).

Anthracites for me are for flank attacks, trying to get to the back of enemy lines and then melting through artillery...

15k+
3k+
 
   
Made in gb
Deranged Necron Destroyer




Sigh, I'll show everyone the maths yet again as to why Acanthrites are so good, comparing 5 with 6 Wraiths+3 whipcoils. I'll even assume that the player is a moron who is running Acanthrites down centrefield with no cover - if they get even 5+ cover (which becomes 4+) they are statistically superior to any and all shooting. I'm also going to use base ballistic skill as although I know some armies like Tau have ways to increase BS, that represents a flat proportional multiplier against both units, so the winner as BS whatever will still win:

BS3 lasgun shots to kill@:
VS 6 Wraiths - 216
VS 5 Acanthrites - 540

BS4 bolter shots to kill:
VS 6 Wraiths - 108
VS 5 Acanthrites - 203

BS3 pulse rifle shots to kill:
VS 6 Wraiths - 108
VS 5 Acanthrites - 180

BS4 TL psybolt assault cannon shots to kill:
VS 6 Wraiths - 49
VS 5 Acanthrites - 56

BS4 S7 shots to kill:
VS 6 Wraiths - 65
VS 5 Acanthrites - 81

BS3 Tau plasma shots to kill:
VS 6 Wraiths - 87
VS 5 Acanthrites - 54

BS4 plasma shots to kill:
VS 6 Wraiths - 65
VS 5 Acanthrites - 35

BS4 missiles to kill:
VS 6 Wraiths - 33
VS 5 Acanthrites - 33

BS4 lascannons
VS 6 Wraiths - 33
VS 5 Acanthrites - 33

Obviously, you can trade these for whatever weapons you want. Meltas perform equally to missiles, gauss flayers to bolters, etc. What does this tell us? Against AP3/2 weapons of lower strength than 7, Wraiths are more durable as long as Acanthrites get no cover whatsoever. Against anything else, Acanthrites win regardless. Acanthrites also have substantially smaller models, so if they want cover they can get it easily. Really they only lack in combat and even then, against multiwound models they're hilarious. No, they don't kill tanks as well as scarabs, No, they don't kill blobs as well as Wraiths. What they do is live forever and be a huge threat to absolutely everything. Wraiths really want a D Lord to support to get PE and kill more. Acanthrites don't care - they're doing the same job regardless. That means that you can instead take and Overlord+Royal Court and the little you lose in mulching squads is made up for in Cryptek versatility. It's not reasonable to compare Acanthrites to anything else - in almost all cases they do the job worse. The thing they do best is living forever. In a game about holding objectives and not dying, that's the thing I'd rather take.

Now let's look at the "counters":

I have a demolisher cannon, you have nine models that don't get to save against them and get ID'd.

I have 9 models which almost certainly are in ruins getting 3+ cover. Plus, who is running demolisher cannons in 6e?

Alternatively, I have Grey Knights, you don't get a save, enjoy instant death.

Which struggle to wound T5 and take the faux-plasma shooting, then faux-plasma overwatch first, so I hope you're charging 10 men. Even then, you on average lose ~5 men and kill 1-2 Acanthrites on the charge. Not what I'd call stellar for something with squad wide force weapons.

Or, I have a warboss biker with a power klaw and a lot of squishy models to punch them with.

Who strikes last and also has to endure the faux-plasma, so is even worse off than the GK.

Or, I have a warp speed Tervigon with claws and used smash.

So if you roll the correct thing on Biomancy (33% chance), then attack 4 times on average you can kill a whopping 1-2 on average. Except now you take less damage from overwatch and a single rend makes you lose your save for the rest of the game. That's a terrible trade.

Or, I have a Prince of Tzeentch with an exalted reward and forewarning.

Again, rolling the right things. Wraiths also lose in this situation so I'm not entirely sure what this proves.

Or, I have the Swarmlord with Iron arm and Warp speed, your unit is gone in two assault phases.

This is the same with almost anything the Swarmlord hits. I mean, really, the Swarmlord beats things in combat? Come on. Once again, a risky dumb move anyway as one rend=no save for game. On the grounds Swarmy is what, 280 points and has no inv, I'd very much like you to eat my 250 point suicide unit and lose your best assault unit as well.

Or I have grimoire'd flesh hounds and now you are stuck in assault forever.

As are you with a better assault unit and forced to use your incredibly valuable wargear to stay there.

Or I have hammernators and you are still stuck in assault forever.

See above, if the Terminators even manage to get into a jump infantry unit in the first place.

Or I have Wraithguard with D-Scythes and wipe your entire unit in one go.

If they can get close to a jump unit.

Or I have my standard comp deathguard list, the only ground vehicles I have are IG ally artillery and rhinos. When I use daemons of nugle allies I have even fewer good targets. The rest is a sea of MCs, fliers, and nugle marked infantry.

Good. Then you'll lose your MC saves and then they can tarpit infantry so you can't score. Again, why is this good?

Or I have a wraith knight, you have T5 models with no invulnerable save that can only wound on sixes.

Which automatically delete your save and those 6's rend, the same as Wraiths.

Or I have Tau and you ragequit because I tabled your army with triple IA riptides and markerlights

If you have Tau, you have the small arms to shoot Wraiths off too, but instead you're forced to use your big unit shooting to kill them. I say kill, actually you average 1 dead per Riptide shooting per turn as you don't ID T5. This one is just wrong full stop - Wraithwing is worse against Tau than Acanthrites as Tau rely on mass shooting, not low AP shooting. That's no even mentioning how unbalanced a list with 3 IA Riptides is.

Or I have Skarbrand who eats your unit and army

How is he getting there?

Shall I go on?

Yes. Acanthrites either do better or equal to Wraiths in almost all the situations above, plus live the shooting better.


Let's face it - Acanthrites are good. They are very, very good. If you have MCs, one will be crippled if not dead. Your vehicles have a dead zone around Acanthrites they can't afford to enter. Your tarpits can be tarpitted. No, they don't replace Wraiths. What they do is add a very good TAC unit into a list. 250 point units are not expensive in a Necron list, nor are they hard to fit in. They need no support but do benefit from it and are also more durable against long range shooting so make a better escort. The only good shooting against it has a real danger to kill the enemy guys too with Gets Hot!. They can and will make combat almost every game. Not to mention the thing everyone seems to ignore - you can easily replace the 5-6 normally unsupported Wraiths in a Wraithwing list with 5 Acanthrites. That makes that unit far better, makes the list more balanced and you still get the benefits of 2 D Lord Wraithbombs. They can even deep strike and have it go okay as they still get their shooting, which Wraiths can't. Instead of everyone going "Wraiths so much better omg" why not consider taking both? One is a combat beast, the other is an insanely durable beast.
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter






I use demolisher cannons ._.

anyway just too add to ridiculousness that i would love to run for the fun of it. (it is entirely possible)

far sight conclave with Riptide IC joined to a squad with dark strider. Get overcharge large blast with st 8 ap 2 that can more than likely be ignore cover and enough bs to mitigate scatter for a bunch of instant death no save hits .

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/01 15:38:08


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in gb
Deranged Necron Destroyer




 Desubot wrote:
I use demolisher cannons ._.

anyway just too add to ridiculousness that i would love to run for the fun of it. (it is entirely possible)

far sight conclave with Riptide IC joined to a squad with dark strider. Get overcharge large blast with st 8 ap 2 that can more than likely be ignore cover and enough bs to mitigate scatter for a bunch of instant death no save hits .



S8 would not ID, they're T5. At absolute best you'd do 5 wounds, which is 1.667 dead Acanthrites. 6 Wraiths would be in the worse position there as even with a 3++ you'd expect to lose 2 of 6 so instead of losing 20% of your unit, you lose 33%. Not to mention the Riptide SC is what, 305 points alone? Then assuming you don't overheat, hit all enemies which have for some reason clumped up and wound every shot... you still do very little to the effectiveness of the unit.
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter






Dark strider lowers T by 1

making them T4

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Eyjio wrote:
 Desubot wrote:
I use demolisher cannons ._.

anyway just too add to ridiculousness that i would love to run for the fun of it. (it is entirely possible)

far sight conclave with Riptide IC joined to a squad with dark strider. Get overcharge large blast with st 8 ap 2 that can more than likely be ignore cover and enough bs to mitigate scatter for a bunch of instant death no save hits .



S8 would not ID, they're T5. At absolute best you'd do 5 wounds, which is 1.667 dead Acanthrites. 6 Wraiths would be in the worse position there as even with a 3++ you'd expect to lose 2 of 6 so instead of losing 20% of your unit, you lose 33%. Not to mention the Riptide SC is what, 305 points alone? Then assuming you don't overheat, hit all enemies which have for some reason clumped up and wound every shot... you still do very little to the effectiveness of the unit.


Dark Strider has a special rule that reduces a targets toughness by 1, meaning that an army with him would be able to ID the arcs with S8.

What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in gb
Deranged Necron Destroyer




Ah, of course he does. To be honest, I've literally never seen him used as he's pretty expensive compared to any of the other HQs. Still, you're then left with a T3 Riptide until only him and one other model in the unit is left. The 2 special characters are 400 alone to kill a 250 point unit and they'd need all the markerlights (minimum 2 hits), then for all the models to be in LOS. If we're going for combos that are silly and hard to pull off, there's hundreds with enfeeble including making them T0. Still doesn't make them a bad unit though, so I'm not sure why they get so much vitriol. I'm about 95% convinced from some of these comments that only myself and Chumbalaya have ever even used them with their correct models. I know one person in another thread said they'd proxied using Wraiths but those models are at least 2x the height, maybe more. I cannot believe anyone who's genuinely used them would have anything but praise because they're fast, durable contesting units with a not-quite-a-melta-not-quite-a-plasma gun per model. I mean, we're talking the same cost as TWC for an extra wound, stealth, entropic strike, S6 AP2 melta guns and smaller models (if more elevated) whilst trading 1 S, 2 I and 2 A. I know TWC are a bit overcosted, but not that much - certainly not by enough to give them a better plasma pistol and 1 more wound.
   
Made in ee
Snotty Snotling




Eyjio - would you mind running the numbers on arachnites' offencive capabilities in close combat vs some realistic threats like hammernators, mobs of kroot or boyz, a few MCs etc?
   
 
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