Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

rigeld2 wrote:
It does say its option. "You can..."

It is alerting you to how the rule works, not that it is an option.

"it is not always necessary to allocate Wounds one at a time. You can instead allocate them in groups equal to..."(16)

This tells us that the normal way of doing things is not always necessary, instead you can do it this way.

No option, just a rule in the BRB.

 Super Ready wrote:
The trouble with fast rolling is that it's an OPTION. It's not mandatory. But, of course, rolling the dice one at a time when there's just no need breaks the most important rule of all - to have fun...

Exactly my point.

"This tells us that the normal way of doing things is not always necessary, instead you can do it this way. "

This is exactly what I would expect the rule to say if it were intending to give players the option. It uses "necessary" rather than "allowed" or "possible" and it uses "can" instead of "should" or "must".

But, yeah, it's really annoying and if there's a real difference in the results you're seeing based on how you roll it's almost certainly because you're unconsciously cheating.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It does say its option. "You can..."

It is alerting you to how the rule works, not that it is an option.

"it is not always necessary to allocate Wounds one at a time. You can instead allocate them in groups equal to..."(16)

This tells us that the normal way of doing things is not always necessary, instead you can do it this way.

No option, just a rule in the BRB.

No, really - that's a very optional statement.
The normal way isn't always necessary, there is the option of doing it another way.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It does say its option. "You can..."

It is alerting you to how the rule works, not that it is an option.

"it is not always necessary to allocate Wounds one at a time. You can instead allocate them in groups equal to..."(16)

This tells us that the normal way of doing things is not always necessary, instead you can do it this way.

No option, just a rule in the BRB.

No, really - that's a very optional statement.
The normal way isn't always necessary, there is the option of doing it another way.

No really it isn't optional.

The words Optional rule do not appear anywhere within the rule...

The normal way isn't always necessary, In these cases we do it another way.

what's funny about this is that since there is no rule requiring making the game proceed as smoothly possible, that there is no reason to make the game go quickly. Really?

Oh, and pull this at a tournament and expect to hear someone call you for slow play.

Deathreaper - how on earth are you reading that as anything but optional?! The wording is very clear. "You can instead" - CAN - not "must". The word "can" indicates a choice.

Other examples -
Page 13: "a player can choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers
Page 18: "your unit can either shoot at the unit as a whole, or you can declare that they will Focus Fire
Page 21: "that unit can immediately fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker
Page 26: "If a unit is locked in combat with an enemy it cannot hurt, it can choose to automatically fail its Morale check for losing a combat

Four examples I found inside a couple of minutes. These are dotted all over the book. Find an example where "can" refers to something that has to happen.

legit the only time i singularly roll is maybe if my HQ is in a challenge with another HQ and its for "dramatic" effect like if i have to make some saves... i like building that tension especially if it gets down to 1 more save needed to survive ...

apart from that if you slow rolled anything more than like.. i dunno 10 ish wounds... or refused to just roll them as a group... id just pack up and leave

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It does say its option. "You can..."

It is alerting you to how the rule works, not that it is an option.

"it is not always necessary to allocate Wounds one at a time. You can instead allocate them in groups equal to..."(16)

This tells us that the normal way of doing things is not always necessary, instead you can do it this way.

No option, just a rule in the BRB.

No, really - that's a very optional statement.
The normal way isn't always necessary, there is the option of doing it another way.

No really it isn't optional.

The words Optional rule do not appear anywhere within the rule...

The normal way isn't always necessary, In these cases we do it another way.

So you move every one of your units every turn?

BRB page 10 wrote:In your turn, you can move any of your units - all of them if you wish

No. Can is equivalent to may which means are allowed but not required.

In the OP he described 79 Lasgun shots and 2 Lascannon shots as the same save. Which is true. They are both 3++. But since they have different strength they have to be rolled separately.

As far as I can tell, there is not rule that forces you to roll all the same strength/same ap weapons at the same time. The OP may continue to roll separately (although it's clear that many would frown upon it).

But there is a rule stating weapons with different strength/ap must be rolled separately. It was stated since they have the same save (3++) they can be rolled at the same time. This is simply not true.

In the example Doom can fail a save from a lasgun shot and take a wound. (He rolled a 1 or 2). However, Doom can fail a save from a lascannon and become killed with Instant Death. (He rolled a 1 or 2). This is why all rolls with different strength/ap weapons must be rolled separately. S3/AP- and S9/AP2 both have to roll on a 3++ but the result is much different.

As far as I can tell, no one pointed this out. If they did, apologizes

To answer the original question, you don't have to roll them at the same time, in fact, the only restriction (I could find) is that weapons with different str/ap must be rolled separately (in the order chosen by the one who is firing).

To the original question: Don't most tournaments have some rule against 'slow play'? I know MtG-tournaments penalize that kind of behaviour.
I surely wouldn't play against that

rigeld2 wrote:

BRB page 10 wrote:In your turn, you can move any of your units - all of them if you wish

No. Can is equivalent to may which means are allowed but not required.

Hmm, that is quite interesting.
pg 16 (as example) happens to say: "it is allowed a further dice roll to see if the armour prevents the wound"
Does that mean you can choose NOT to take Armour Saves?

So let's say I play Tau and 10 ASM are in combat with a unit of 6 Fire Warriors.
The ASM rolled and causes 6 wounds.
Can I decide to skip the saves, let all of them die and unleash a huge VoF on my next turn?

I think what the OP is saying is that when he rolls a handful of dice, the distribution approaches normal and he fails saves. When he rolls them one by one, he is no longer rolling them randomly and they skew to higher numbers.

So, want to roll them one by one? Use a dice cup or dice tower and not the palm of your hand.

Homer

Kangodo wrote:
"it is allowed a further dice roll to see if the armour prevents the wound" Does that mean you can choose NOT to take Armour Saves?

Interesting effort, but not the same thing. "Is allowed" isn't the same thing as "may" or "can". It's a permission, the kind we look for when we talk about the ruleset being a permissive one.
Even if it were, it's then overridden later on by (page number goes here) for multiple saves which says that you must always use the best save available.

What is the difference?
You can do it, you may do it, you are allowed to do it.
All three things give you permission to do something.

And Multiple Saves actually says: "a model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save."

fast rolling is an option, not mandatory.

if you are going to complain about people one off rolling in non mixed saves, then go ahead and complain, just wastes more time then single dice rolling.


no different from people who talk talk talk, or take forever to set up or take their models out of cases, in fact those take far more time then a few extra seconds for dice...

heck, if taking slightly longer is cheating, then all ork/horde armies are CHEATERS.

fact is, you are perfectly allowed to roll saves on at a time, taking 1 second to roll 10 dice, or 10 sec to rol 1 dice 10 times, doesnt add hours to game play. people waste far more time talking/arguing then rolling dice.

It isnt going to break any games, and actually helps people in determining which models get taken off, and reminds them when they get to a character or unique model to change the save or LOS.

maybe you dont like single dice rolls, you dont have to, but to accuse people of cheating for rolling one die at a time instead of all of them, when it breaks 0 rules, is unsportsmanlike.

complaining about a few extra seconds spent on rolling dice is silly, its not adding large amounts of time.

May as well complain that anyone who talks to you and wastes your precious seconds that way is a cheater too.

 Super Ready wrote:
Deathreaper - how on earth are you reading that as anything but optional?! The wording is very clear. "You can instead" - CAN - not "must". The word "can" indicates a choice.

Other examples -
Page 13: "a player can choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers
Page 18: "your unit can either shoot at the unit as a whole, or you can declare that they will Focus Fire
Page 21: "that unit can immediately fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker
Page 26: "If a unit is locked in combat with an enemy it cannot hurt, it can choose to automatically fail its Morale check for losing a combat

Four examples I found inside a couple of minutes. These are dotted all over the book. Find an example where "can" refers to something that has to happen.

So these things are optional as well...

"A model will sometimes be called upon to take a characteristic test. Such a test can be applied against any characteristic that the model has," (7)

"Models can take armour saves to prevent Wounds caused in close combat" (26)

"Even if a Wound ignores all armour saves, an invulnerable saving throw can still be taken." (17)

I guess these are optional as well...

You do not have to take armor saves or Invuln saves because "Models can take armour saves" and "An invulnerable save can be made, if it is the best save available." (26)

Or take characteristic tests, as characteristic test "can be applied against any characteristic that the model has"

 easysauce wrote:
fast rolling is an option, not mandatory.

if you are going to complain about people one off rolling in non mixed saves, then go ahead and complain, just wastes more time then single dice rolling.


no different from people who talk talk talk, or take forever to set up or take their models out of cases, in fact those take far more time then a few extra seconds for dice...

heck, if taking slightly longer is cheating, then all ork/horde armies are CHEATERS.

fact is, you are perfectly allowed to roll saves on at a time, taking 1 second to roll 10 dice, or 10 sec to rol 1 dice 10 times, doesnt add hours to game play. people waste far more time talking/arguing then rolling dice.

It isnt going to break any games, and actually helps people in determining which models get taken off, and reminds them when they get to a character or unique model to change the save or LOS.

maybe you dont like single dice rolls, you dont have to, but to accuse people of cheating for rolling one die at a time instead of all of them, when it breaks 0 rules, is unsportsmanlike.

complaining about a few extra seconds spent on rolling dice is silly, its not adding large amounts of time.

May as well complain that anyone who talks to you and wastes your precious seconds that way is a cheater too.

Well here is where it makes a difference. If it is "a few extra seconds" that's fine. I've done this, rolled one at a time for 4 saves. makes it more dramatic. But if you sit there and do one at a time for 70 saves. It's going to be just as rude as those people who talktalktalktalktalk. There are some certain gaming courtesies and I think it is good to be aware of them and to be aware of how your actions may be perceived. If the OP doesn't care about how he is perceived, then he may by all means do whatever the F he wants. I figured the purpose of this thread was for perspective.

The whole cheating thing caught me off a little bit, thats not where I would go with it if I saw someone rolling them one at a time. Unless he was aiming for the ones that landed on one. I would just think he is a superstitious time waster.

Not true.
You can be forced to take a characteristic test. The "can" in that sentence explains how you do it.

Context is king mr context.

@DeathReaper, What about look out sir, optional or not?

There is no "may" or "can" about it.

The answer here is in the formatting I believe. You have the rules, then you have optional rules/clarifications of things from codexes that complicate things, sectioned off into their own boxes. ie LOS, fast rolling, hover types, BS>6, G2G, and others.

I just love how everyone becomes a grammar professor when interpreting rules.

It's attitudes like this that are making me want to stop playing a game I used to love. If you care SO much about winning that you have to slow the game down even more than it already is I have no interest to play you.

As was stated in an earlier post. Try going to a tournament with timed rounds and doing single save rolls. I would call the judge and complain about slow play in a heartbeat.

We're done here.