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 acekevin8412 wrote:
I think I understand what you're saying

Every time people say such things I feel bad for my broken English

 acekevin8412 wrote:
how and what does that break? Sorry if I sound stupid, but I'm still kinda new to the assault phase of the game.

Lets say you have tactical marines squad in Rhino, and your opponent have footslogging necron immortals, thousand sons, long fangs, riflemern dreadnought, etc. While tacticals still aren't good in melee, they almost always would want to tie up those squads to prevent them from laying their firepower on something more important then them. But in current rules they must spend at least 2 turns to reach melee: first to move rhino 6" and disembark, second to move, shoot pistols and charge. And mind you, opponent player would try to focusfire them or assault the with his own assault specialists/expendable meatshields on his own urn to save his (relatively) weak in melee squad from assault or at least even the odds. So we have good high risk - high reward situation, which make a game interesting. With ability to charge from non-assault transport even with no extra attacks and initiative this would turn to "low risk -high reward" - basically a no-brainer choice, as unless your Rhino get blown on its way, taticals could disembark and assault suffering no cassualities othe than overwatch, tying crucial ene,y squad in melee and ruining his battle plan - all for the lowly price of 35 pts.

Our goal is to make close-combat squads good at reaching melee (they are already good when they are there - 6e just make reaching melee harder and unreliable), not to make standard troop squads better at tying things in melee.

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 Dakkamite wrote:
I would love to see some sort of BS penalties for distance added in. I'd have no problem with long weapon ranges if the accuracy went down because of it. I'd also prefer to see range, rather than absolute "WITHIN 24" OR NOT" sort of stuff, to be a steadily decreasing accuracy until you 'run out' of ballistic skill. IE, fire a bolter at 12" on a 2+, 18" on a 3+, 24" on a 4+, 30" on a 5+, 36" on a 6+ or something like that.

This sounds good. For marines and other small squad armies. For the big squads it would be a nightmare as with krootblob, guardblob or shootaboy mob you would have guys firing from multiple distances: you would need to check a lot of distances and to throw a to-hit dices in 2-4 separate waves - this would slow a game A LOT.

 Dakkamite wrote:

 Mahtamori wrote:
Neither assaulting from reserves nor assaulting from deep strike will actually make melee-oriented armies function properly. It will only make outflanking and deep striking melee units powerful, in my opinion to powerful.

The root of the problem lies elsewhere, most likely the fact that ranged weapons in this game simply have too great range.

This is half of the problem, but the other half - the bigger half IMO - is that the simplistic way that BS works makes that long range shooty far too killy

I would love to see some sort of BS penalties for distance added in. I'd have no problem with long weapon ranges if the accuracy went down because of it. I'd also prefer to see range, rather than absolute "WITHIN 24" OR NOT" sort of stuff, to be a steadily decreasing accuracy until you 'run out' of ballistic skill. IE, fire a bolter at 12" on a 2+, 18" on a 3+, 24" on a 4+, 30" on a 5+, 36" on a 6+ or something like that.

While a nice change, it'd yet again make shooting stronger. I think instead, as someone else had mentioned earlier, there should be a chance to hit on a 2+ in CC if you're WS is high enough, or a number of rerolls to hits based on the difference in WS.

It'd only make shooting stronger if it was "shoot normally (or better) up to current range, shoot worse at further ranges" to essentially become a free range boost for shooty.

This sounds good. For marines and other small squad armies. For the big squads it would be a nightmare as with krootblob, guardblob or shootaboy mob you would have guys firing from multiple distances: you would need to check a lot of distances and to throw a to-hit dices in 2-4 separate waves - this would slow a game A LOT.

In the same way you use majority toughness, I reckon majority distance would apply too.

Also, with the current "shoot through your teammates rules" assault is nerfed again. Just think - 30 shoota boyz can fire at full effect, yet in assault maybe only half that can strike. Either models shouldn't be able to fire through their allies, or outnumbering type bonuses should return to CC

 Dakkamite wrote:
Also, with the current "shoot through your teammates rules" assault is nerfed again. Just think - 30 shoota boyz can fire at full effect, yet in assault maybe only half that can strike. Either models shouldn't be able to fire through their allies, or outnumbering type bonuses should return to CC

Or just double the pile-in moves to ensure more models qould be in a fight range. As for outnumbering, it could be some encouraging bonus for unengaged models like a curren "Get him, Boss!" rule in challenge:
- if at least 25% of the unit is outside combat distance, all models can re-roll to-hit rolls
- if at least 50% of the unit is outside combat distance, all models can re-roll to-hit and to-wound rolls
- if at least 75% of the unit is outside combat distance, all models can re-roll to-hit and to wound rolls and gain +1 A.

THis could lead to situations where its beneficial to keep guys from the unit out of CC, not something I believe is in line with the 40k style.

%s are also a PITA to use in many cases.

What I reckon instead, is for each model in the unit that cannot get into CC, you give a bonus to one model that *is* in CC.

As to what that bonus is, I'm not sure, and likewise dunno how this should apply to challenges.

Edit: One rule I saw in a "rumours for 6th edition" thing was that pistols confer a free pistol attack in CC either in addition to or replacing the +1A (and so differentiating them from simple CCW). I reckon this sort of thing could help buff melee units as most of them get some kind of pistol - make it a free overwatch shot every round in CC as opposed to only during the charge

 Dakkamite wrote:
It'd only make shooting stronger if it was "shoot normally (or better) up to current range, shoot worse at further ranges" to essentially become a free range boost for shooty.

Which your suggestion practically does. It extends the maximum range by 50%, at 1/3rd its new maximum range you get +1 BS, and you don't get -1 BS until you are at 75% of your old maximum range. In other words, the only time you aren't better off is with a tiny 6" area, not to mention how the +12" maximum range alone balances that out in favour of shooting by far.

My suggestion is simply declining accuracy over distance, and the numbers I posted up were to make sure everyone knew what I meant.

I thought that the context and the "or something like that" would have made that clearer

I have mixed feelings on most of the ideas here, but overwatch stopping assaults makes things more interesting and cinematic in my eyes. Chances are at the ranges where that would happen, you're taking a risk merely trying to assault. And I could see a withering hail of bullets and fire delaying a charge for a brief time.

 Dakkamite wrote:
THis could lead to situations where its beneficial to keep guys from the unit out of CC, not something I believe is in line with the 40k style.

Yes, i messed with mathammer. It shold be 1/3 squad out of combat for rerolls to hit and 2/3 for rerolls to wound to make it non-beneficial and still rewarding for a big squads.
Maybe also with some rewards for a bigger squads when they retreat form combat - I cannot see how single Riflemen Dreadnought of Forgefiend could wipe huge hordes of cultists/conscripts/gretchin in a single sweeping advance - something I saw numerous times on the battlefield.

Anyone have an opinion about bringing back consolidating into assault? It'd punish castling close together(Tau/Support Fire). It could keep your assaulty units immune to shooting for longer. While this seems nice, I have no real experience with this rule since I started in 5E.

Could also roll 3d6 and dropping the lowest for your charge distance. Charging through terrain could give you 4d6 dropping the highest and lowest.

Another possible change: Bring back assault after one running? If this is done, charge distance would probably have to be reduced. It'd go well with previous suggestions to reduce charge distance but make it less random.

Test Max move:
Infantry:
6" Move + 1-6 Run + (6+[1-3]) = 14-21"
Jump:
12" Move + 1-6 Run + (6+[1-3]) = 20-27"

We allow for the possibility of consolidating into assault because always being able to and never being able to seemed extreme in either case.

Therefore, when a unit wishes to engage an enemy after a victorious close combat they can consolidate into an enemy in range unless the enemy successfully avoids it. The enemy rolls a D6, and if higher than the consolidation move they successfully avoid contact with the consolidating unit, and the victor may not engage any other unit either.

 amanita wrote:
We allow for the possibility of consolidating into assault because always being able to and never being able to seemed extreme in either case.

Therefore, when a unit wishes to engage an enemy after a victorious close combat they can consolidate into an enemy in range unless the enemy successfully avoids it. The enemy rolls a D6, and if higher than the consolidation move they successfully avoid contact with the consolidating unit, and the victor may not engage any other unit either.

Sounds good.

 Mezmerro wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
THis could lead to situations where its beneficial to keep guys from the unit out of CC, not something I believe is in line with the 40k style.

Yes, i messed with mathammer. It shold be 1/3 squad out of combat for rerolls to hit and 2/3 for rerolls to wound to make it non-beneficial and still rewarding for a big squads.
Maybe also with some rewards for a bigger squads when they retreat form combat - I cannot see how single Riflemen Dreadnought of Forgefiend could wipe huge hordes of cultists/conscripts/gretchin in a single sweeping advance - something I saw numerous times on the battlefield.

Obviously it rushes forward, stomping on the small but numerous infantry while maniacally laughing and cackling "DIE ANTS DIE!"

 Mezmerro wrote:
OK, lets sum it up:
1) Fix minimum charge distance, snake eyes while rare, sucks a lot.
I suggest set minimum chage distance to:
- 4" for normal units
- 7" for beasts, cavalry, bikes and jump units who use jumppacks to charge
- +1 for fleet
- +1 for IoK, Hormagaunt leap, Banshee acrobatic, WAAAAGH!

totally agree!
it just makes no sence that a horde of boys can charge the same distance as a nob biker or a deffkopta.While the bikes and jetbikes will move further when falling back.

I'd like this USR to be introduced:

CHARGER:

A units consisting mainly of models with this special rule rolls 2d6 when making run moves. It also ignores the iniative penalty for charging into Difficalt terrain.

any model not carrying a weapon with the rapid fire, heavy, ordanace or salvo special rule [even the model also has relentless] automaticaly gets this USR.

Also I disagree with any changes to charge distance, the chance of "snake eyes [sic]" is only 3%.

@sing your life, do you understand, that it would power up eldar shooty units much more than most choppy units? Aside this, I cannot imagine nobz or terminators runing 2d6" other than by magic.