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I think in another book, an SM character said "give me a hundred space marines, or a thousand other soldiers", or something like that?

Isn't this question slightly vague?

Super Ready wrote:Or "dozens, if not a hundred lesser soldiers" by Codex: Dark Angels' entry. Leave it to GW to have differing fluff lenses. I wonder if they're rose-tinted...

According to Marc Gascogne, every official product is "crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths" - so yeah, there's certainly a lot of room for interpretation! Personally, in such cases I tend towards whatever sounds "less epic" for that very reason. After all, legends have a tendency to exaggerate the heroes rather than to downplay them.
That being said, even amongst the "lesser soldiers" there's a huge difference of quality. Compare a Cadian Veteran to a Valhallan Conscript, for example.

Though I tend to believe that in 40k, wargear plays more of a role than the person wielding it, anyways. Give a Guardsman a plasma gun and suddenly he might be able to take a Marine on all by himself. To me, the value of technology over man (both in battlefield- as well as economical importance) adds to the Grimdark. At the same time, this means that very few Guardsmen will have said plasma gun.

Melissia wrote:I think in another book, an SM character said "give me a hundred space marines, or a thousand other soldiers", or something like that?

Yeah, that was Primarch Rogal Dorn.

Frozen Ocean wrote:Lynata, why is your flag France when your location is Ireland?

My office uses proxies/VPN. I can also do US and UK, so don't be alarmed if my flag switches around a lot.

 Lynata wrote:
According to Marc Gascogne, every official product is "crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths" - so yeah, there's certainly a lot of room for interpretation! Personally, in such cases I tend towards whatever sounds "less epic" for that very reason. After all, legends have a tendency to exaggerate the heroes rather than to downplay them.
That being said, even amongst the "lesser soldiers" there's a huge difference of quality. Compare a Cadian Veteran to a Valhallan Conscript, for example.

Though I tend to believe that in 40k, wargear plays more of a role than the person wielding it, anyways. Give a Guardsman a plasma gun and suddenly he might be able to take a Marine on all by himself. To me, the value of technology over man (both in battlefield- as well as economical importance) adds to the Grimdark. At the same time, this means that very few Guardsmen will have said plasma gun.

For my part I try to do the exact opposite. I like to take every story as literally as my imagination allows unless I am presented with a specific reason not too. But then, I suppose it really depends on your level of interest in the 40k franchise. If you are more into the lore than the game, or more into the game than the lore, you will have to chose a sort of starting point, and all your interpretations will follow from there. For example, my favorite part of 40k is the lore. I paint, I play, and I do some custom modeling now and again, and while I enjoy all those things, I still like the story the most. For me this translates into putting the story first, and following that the game as played out on the table is just an attempt to convert the story into a game that can be played by large groups of people.

I should think that if a different view were to taken, such that a person regarded the game as being first, than it could be reasoned that the story would be a translation of those rules into fantastic tales. I think that person would be more likely to regard those tales as being exaggerations.

It fits the fantasy in my head that those tales and stories be literally true until they dramatically conflict with the game I play: Knowing that basic humans in 40k are capable of a 3 statline (not all humans are, but they are capable with training: see IG). that 3 Statline is a fair representation of humanity without too much added in. T3 means we are not exactly frail, but a bolt (self propelled, mass reactive, armor piercing, high velocity slug) would blow us to friggen' bitz. A Space Marine in his black carapace, interfacing with his Power Armor (T4), has a much greater chance of surviving that bolter round. He isn't guaranteed to survive it, but his odds are vastly better than the average man's. Likewise, a STR 3 Imperial Guardsman will have a hard time hitting an Ork hard enough to do anything more than make it upset unless he has a pretty swag weapon. A Space Marine with a STR 4 can, on a roll of six PUNCH A HOLE IN THE BACK OF TANK ... AV 10. interpretations vary, but the game allows for a pretty wide variance between just a 3 and 4 stat.

Imagine the characters who are represented as having STR 6 like Ghazgul, or STR 9 like a Deamon Prince (more than double a SM - I can easily imagine him toppling buildings, hurling tanks, and basically being a grimdark version of the Hulk if he drank the blood and syphoned the souls of his enemies after smashing them into a gory soup).

Obviously there are some absurdities to follow since Matt Ward is still allowed to write: Paladins having wander around naked for days and slay a named greater daemon with no weapon before even being allowed to enter the Paladin order. All this and once he becomes a Paladin, dons the best armor the Imperium can create, and wielding a super-glaive of psychic deadness ... has almost no chance of killing a normal Greater Deamon on the table. Strike that, not almost no chance, he has functionally NO chance.

Anyway, I've run away with this. Sorry.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Lynata wrote:

Granted, Necrons seem to be pretty straightforward for once, but I'm fairly sure their tactics qualify as psychological warfare, and one could argue they "cheat" by having their killed troops get up again.

The Necrons teleport the bulk of their army onto an unaware planet and start lighting the place up with Gauss fire.

That's "cheating", lol.

Or they do the - 'you never looked under this mountain did you!' attack. The one where they go 'btw, we were here first, gtfo, lol, blam'
Cos Necrons really all talk like that.

@En Excelsis:
Hmmm. An interesting perspective. I have to say, I too am much more interested in the setting than the game - which I have not played for years by now. Although my company has a bunch of 40k players, all my minis (except a token SoB with a Flamer as desktop decoration) are still in Germany.

But it is also this focus on the background that lets me want to try and perceive the universe of 40k as a consistent setting, and this means having to choose carefully how I interpret the various sources. For if you really do take everything literally, you'll arrive at a cluttered mess of conflicting information. Especially if you also branch out away from GW's core material and into novels, computer games, FW army books or FFG's RPGs. It's all part of the franchise, they just represent different interpretations of the setting. And this is how I've ultimately come to accept and deal with all those contradictions.

When the people who write these books tell me that, yes, it's meant to be hearsay and myths and inconsistent, then I have no problem cherrypicking what makes the most sense, and which is somewhat close to the actual rules around which all the fluff is based. And whereas I think we all agree that the codices display a strong tendency to display their faction in the most positive light possible, the rules are the one neutral thing connecting them all, so at the very least I use them as a rough guideline.

You actually seem to have a somewhat similar opinion on the TT stats (which is a rare thing; most fans tend to ignore them as they are "less epic" than the fluff descriptions, at least where Marines are involved), so you must be aware of how even the Imperial Guardsman's basic weapon - the lasgun - poses a threat for a Space Marine. This is fairly consistent with the fluff in the 2E Codex Angels of Death (resistance of "50-85% against injuries from small arms" in a detailed description of Marine power armour) as well as Games Workshop's Inquisitor RPG (upwards of 16.6% injury chance for a standard lasgun).

So I have no problem assuming that ten Guardsmen with lasguns might equal one Marine in battle. The Astartes still has other advantages, such as being more independent and much less likely to run, being better at recovering from injuries (or even at least having a chance at it), and being way more mobile thanks to drop pods and such. But I can see how the description in the Rulebook could come to such a comparison. Guardsmen are flimsy and won't be able to resist much harm, but throw enough of them at the Marine and their sufficiently dangerous weapons will show effect. This is what I mean with "technology > man".

On a sidenote, there are some humans who actually are T4 or S4, such as various special characters or even unnamed Assassins. Exceptions, to be sure, but their mere existence suggests to me that the gap, whilst still massive, is not insurmountable. Especially once we add cybernetics - I mean, IG Colonel Straken is S6, what do you think he could do if you believe that S4 punches holes into tanks?

All of this is very much a matter of interpretations, though. It is both a blessing and a curse of the franchise that the material is intentionally unclear on such details, and though it allows each of us to perceive the setting however we like, I often tend to wish for consistency akin to the clarity of Battletech...

And don't be sorry, I think it's quite an interesting topic to discuss, even though it's a bit OT.

PredaKhaine wrote:Or they do the - 'you never looked under this mountain did you!' attack. The one where they go 'btw, we were here first, gtfo, lol, blam'
Cos Necrons really all talk like that.

True enough!
That's also a thing in the Hammer & Anvil novel.

 Lynata wrote:


You actually seem to have a somewhat similar opinion on the TT stats (which is a rare thing; most fans tend to ignore them as they are "less epic" than the fluff descriptions, at least where Marines are involved), so you must be aware of how even the Imperial Guardsman's basic weapon - the lasgun - poses a threat for a Space Marine. This is fairly consistent with the fluff in the 2E Codex Angels of Death (resistance of "50-85% against injuries from small arms" as well as Games Workshop's Inquisitor RPG (at least 16.6% injury chance for a standard lasgun).

So I have no problem assuming that ten Guardsmen with lasguns might equal one Marine in battle. The Astartes still has other advantages, such as being more independent and much less likely to run, being better at recovering from injuries (or even at least having a chance at it), and being way more mobile thanks to drop pods and such. But I can see how the description in the Rulebook could come to such a comparison. Guardsmen are flimsy and won't be able to resist much harm, but throw enough of them at the Marine and their sufficiently dangerous weapons will show effect. This is what I mean with "technology > man".

This is strange territory for sure.

As I see it, even the most powerful single units in the game (Khaine, Deamon Princes, Swarmlords, etc) can be brought low with enough firepower. This does not make them less epic or less powerful, but it highlights the disparity between melee and ranged combat. All ranged weapons are dangerous. It generally doesn't matter what you are, somewhere out there is a big enough gun to bring you down. Another way to see this would be to line up 100 space marines and 100 Guardsmen and have them fire back and forth at each other. the guardsmen would all almost assuredly die, but not without a few shots finding vulnerable points in the SM and killing some of them... how many is not relevant, the point is they would kill more than 1 or 2. Just as in real life you find a man who is a master of martial arts and could genuine be the better of any man or any 10 men in close combat... can he dodge a bullet?

However, say that same 100 Space Marines was in melee combat with the IG... well, those guardsmen are all dead and I don't think that you could really count on loosing a SM. If we return to scale and examine just a single Space Marine... how many guardsmen would have to fight him before we went down? Probably quite a few. It's a hard place to be.

There I agree! Space Marines are monsters in melee, even in my interpretation.

Of course even then you may have Guardsmen like Straken who managed to strangle a CSM Lord to death (-> Codex Planetstrike), but such people are one-in-a-million cases (probably way more rare, even). Going by the averages, I'm not sure where exactly a Space Marine would be stopped if his IG opponents would be limited to melee. Assuming he's wearing a helmet, the suit of powered armour alone makes him all but invulnerable against hand-to-hand, whereas the Astartes could just grab a Guardsman's head and crush it with a single hand. Even bayonets are probably unable to penetrate the armour. Pretty much the only thing that could actually harm him are chainswords and power weapons, I guess, but the former are limited to Sergeants and the latter are likely only to be found with senior officers.

 Lynata wrote:

Of course even then you may have Guardsmen like Straken who managed to strangle a CSM Lord to death (-> Codex Planetstrike), but such people are one-in-a-million cases (probably way more rare, even).

Straken doesn't count as an 'exceptional man'. Although his situation is rather exceptional, calling him an exceptional man makes it as though, in very rare cases, regular humans can be S6. He's a super-cyborg!

Your argument of 'technology > man' is very true. I do want to point out, though, that the physiology of Space Marines is entirely technological, even if it isn't made obvious with ceramite and wiring. They aren't as tough and strong as they are because of skill, but because of the augmentations performed upon them with technology. In the broader context of 40k, though, it is less clear. There is very little difference between organic and technological superiority. It is not as simple as 'tech > organism', although I think that is the actual core of your argument (strength > skill). Think of Carnifexes, for example. Technology is a means to augment and improve upon areas found lacking, but it doesn't mean that it is the only method! Also, like Space Marines, Assassins are augmented with technology in order to achieve that level of physical prowess.

I agree with the general sentiment put forth here, embodied in the comparison between Marine/Guardsmen melee vs shooting. Guns are a big game-changer! Even a grot can pull a trigger, and that is all that is needed to smite any foe... as long as the trigger is attached to a sufficiently powerful weapon. A grot with a heavy flamer turret could be reasonably expected to destroy an unarmed Space Marine at medium range, but that doesn't mean that grots are very powerful. "Space Marines are worth a hundred lesser men" isn't talking about bolter vs lasgun, it's talking about the individuals themselves.

Frozen Ocean wrote:Straken doesn't count as an 'exceptional man'. Although his situation is rather exceptional, calling him an exceptional man makes it as though, in very rare cases, regular humans can be S6. He's a super-cyborg!

Well, technically isn't it true that anyone can receive bionics? I used Straken chiefly as an example for how far the Strength scale goes, and what a Space Marine could in theory encounter when facing IG, as small as the chance may be. I guess I could've made that a bit clearer, and apologise for the confusion there.
Certainly, Catachan Sergeant Harker (who is S4) is a much better example for a natural development for exceptional people. Well .. as natural as Catachans go.

Anyways, we seem to be in agreement here regarding the core argument.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
in what alternate universe, would a balanced fight ever beable to happen? Everyone will bring something that the other won't have a counter for.

Fair fights never happen.

When they do, tears on both sides usually follow

In the background Space Marines are the most effective fighting force. Only other race's special super soldiers can test them but on the other hand Space Marines are just humanity's super soldiers. The Imperium overall is the strongest force in the galaxy.

 Lynata wrote:

Frozen Ocean wrote:Straken doesn't count as an 'exceptional man'. Although his situation is rather exceptional, calling him an exceptional man makes it as though, in very rare cases, regular humans can be S6. He's a super-cyborg!

Well, technically isn't it true that anyone can receive bionics? I used Straken chiefly as an example for how far the Strength scale goes, and what a Space Marine could in theory encounter when facing IG, as small as the chance may be. I guess I could've made that a bit clearer, and apologise for the confusion there.
Certainly, Catachan Sergeant Harker (who is S4) is a much better example for a natural development for exceptional people. Well .. as natural as Catachans go.

Anyways, we seem to be in agreement here regarding the core argument.

That would include Inquisitors in Artificer armour, then. A 2+ save on a normal human, possibly with psyker and equipment giving him/her enhanced physical abilities. It's also technically true that any given Chaos individual could be of any strength, they may be a Daemon Prince in disguise or simply a Cultist who caught the attention of Gods when they were in a particularly good mood. If Straken were a viable example, then a Dreadnought would be a viable example of how strong Space Marines might be!

No confusion, just pointing it out.

n the fluff which army do you think is the strongest in a balance match where one side doesn't outnumbered the other

If that is the basic premise: Ya, Space Marines.

 Ratius wrote:

n the fluff which army do you think is the strongest in a balance match where one side doesn't outnumbered the other

If that is the basic premise: Ya, Space Marines.

I still say Collegia Titanica, for 5 Space Marines to take out 5 Warhound titans, Matt Ward would have to be writing it.

Frozen Ocean wrote:That would include Inquisitors in Artificer armour, then. A 2+ save on a normal human, possibly with psyker and equipment giving him/her enhanced physical abilities. It's also technically true that any given Chaos individual could be of any strength, they may be a Daemon Prince in disguise or simply a Cultist who caught the attention of Gods when they were in a particularly good mood. If Straken were a viable example, then a Dreadnought would be a viable example of how strong Space Marines might be!
No confusion, just pointing it out.

Ehh, I'd say there is still some measure of difference between what is essentially military prosthetics for "some Guardsman", and custom-ordered wargear for someone with unlimited political influence, or a walking tank in which the only part of a Space Marine that plays any role is his brain. I know we're splitting hairs here, but I couldn't resist that nitpick.

Do you think Straken's bionics are somehow special to what any other IG Vet could receive if he were injured? Because his background so far does not hint at it; his trademark arm, for example, he got as a common Sergeant - and as we were basically discussing "what could you encounter when being faced with the infantry of army X", then there may be a certain chance to meet a similar person within the ranks of the Guard, just like you could have, say, someone like Chaplain Cassius with the Marines.

Ratius wrote:

n the fluff which army do you think is the strongest in a balance match where one side doesn't outnumbered the other



If that is the basic premise: Ya, Space Marines.



I still say Collegia Titanica, for 5 Space Marines to take out 5 Warhound titans, Matt Ward would have to be writing it.

Ratius 0 - PrinceRaven 1

 Lynata wrote:
Ehh, I'd say there is still some measure of difference between what is essentially military prosthetics for "some Guardsman", and custom-ordered wargear for someone with unlimited political influence, or a walking tank in which the only part of a Space Marine that plays any role is his brain. I know we're splitting hairs here, but I couldn't resist that nitpick.

Do you think Straken's bionics are somehow special to what any other IG Vet could receive if he were injured? Because his background so far does not hint at it; his trademark arm, for example, he got as a common Sergeant - and as we were basically discussing "what could you encounter when being faced with the infantry of army X", then there may be a certain chance to meet a similar person within the ranks of the Guard, just like you could have, say, someone like Chaplain Cassius with the Marines.

You may meet one with a powerfist. I think Straken was exceptionally fortunate, and that most Guardsmen with that extent of injury would either die or end up disabled and incapable of fighting. Bionics aren't as common among Guard as Dreadnoughts are among Marines. So much so that he's a special character!

 Lynata wrote:

Frozen Ocean wrote:That would include Inquisitors in Artificer armour, then. A 2+ save on a normal human, possibly with psyker and equipment giving him/her enhanced physical abilities. It's also technically true that any given Chaos individual could be of any strength, they may be a Daemon Prince in disguise or simply a Cultist who caught the attention of Gods when they were in a particularly good mood. If Straken were a viable example, then a Dreadnought would be a viable example of how strong Space Marines might be!
No confusion, just pointing it out.

Ehh, I'd say there is still some measure of difference between what is essentially military prosthetics for "some Guardsman", and custom-ordered wargear for someone with unlimited political influence, or a walking tank in which the only part of a Space Marine that plays any role is his brain. I know we're splitting hairs here, but I couldn't resist that nitpick.

Do you think Straken's bionics are somehow special to what any other IG Vet could receive if he were injured? Because his background so far does not hint at it; his trademark arm, for example, he got as a common Sergeant - and as we were basically discussing "what could you encounter when being faced with the infantry of army X", then there may be a certain chance to meet a similar person within the ranks of the Guard, just like you could have, say, someone like Chaplain Cassius with the Marines.

Can you name a single other guardsman with Straken's level of bionic enhancement?

Frozen Ocean wrote:I think Straken was exceptionally fortunate, and that most Guardsmen with that extent of injury would either die or end up disabled and incapable of fighting. Bionics aren't as common among Guard as Dreadnoughts are among Marines. So much so that he's a special character!

Ehh, if you're approaching the issue from that angle, we might as well assume that tank aces are almost unheard of amongst the IG because there's only one Knight Commander Pask. Similarly, whilst a Marine Chapter is much, much more likely to have Dreadnoughts than the average IG regiment to have someone with extensive bionics, there are also much, much more regiments than there are Marine Chapters.

Look, all I'm saying is that Straken is a precedent. It's illogical to assume it should be impossible that there could be another like him. There was no unique magic or experimental genetic tampering involved with his body, he just had the grit and sheer luck to live long enough to rack up the implants. When it happened once, it can happen again.

"Many are Imperial Guard veterans who have been ordained as Abbots, though a few are products of the Schola Progenium themselves. [...] As veterans of real combat, many Drill Abbots sport prosthetic limbs and artificial organs, usually proudly displayed as trophies of honour rather than concealed beneath synskin or clothing."
- Inquisitor RPG, Ecclesiarchy characters, Drill Abbot

Void__Dragon wrote:Can you name a single other guardsman with Straken's level of bionic enhancement?

Yarrick probably doesn't qualify in that he isn't a Guardsman. He is just another normal human, though, and could have easily been a Guardsman in another life.

When in doubt, i go for the imperial navy. Being the gene enhanced product of decades of training is very nice. Commanding a ship with the power to shatter continents is better