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Yeah, I can see where you are coming from with critiquing Coteaz but he has yet to fail me in a game. Plus I plan to supplement him with a Librarian, an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor in terminator armor or a GM. I am still playing with points and I want to play test a few scenarios before I settle on which HQ will be coming to help the legendary Inquisitor from the Formosa sector.

 Ailaros wrote:
Hardly. Coteaz has some beaty abilities, but is vastly outclassed by other options. That hammer looks cool until you realise that it's S6 and comes on an easy-to-instant-death T3 model who doesn't come with an invul save. An imperial guard officer with a powerfist is beatier.

Meanwhile, Coteaz brings deepstrike denial to an army literally packed with deepstrike denial. You don't need expectation when you have warpquake everywhere. The only time that this is useful is if you don't have warpquake - namely, if you're taking a henchmen army. Outside of henchmen, though, there isn't much to worry about.

Also, other stuff in the codex has access to divination, including more powers. And coteaz has to give up hammerhand to take them.

The only thing coteaz really does is allow you to much more reliably take and hold first turn, and to make henchmen scoring. Outside of that, he's pretty lame compared to the rest of the options in the codex, much less being one of the best HQs in the entire game.

I honestly cannot tell if you are serious. Well done!


Figure I may as well address some of your 'points' however, in the spirit of discussion:

1) An Imperial guard officer with a powerfist hits at the same strength and is outclassed in every other possible way. Perhaps you'd prefer a different comparison?

2) Warpquake is only available on interceptors and strike squads, and requires a psychic check every turn. 'I've been expecting you' requires none of these things, and can be added to anything you can attach an IC to. Yes they are both deepstrike denial, a fact that does nothing to take away from the usefulness of the ability.

3) This 'other stuff' (aka level 2 psykers with access to the divination table) costs 'at minimum' 50% more points to field, has less wounds, and less useful special abilities. Giving up hammerhand (a psychic ability available to literally every other non-vehicle unit in the codex except henchmen) in exchange for being able to reliably twin-link everything and pick up a second useful power is 'a good deal' . That said, you are not 'required' to do so. If you prefer hammerhand, dark excommunication, and sanctuary, feel free to keep them?

4) I only wish the codex had enough gas in it in order for Coteaz to be considered 'pretty lame' by comparison. Or rather I do not, since that would have required it be nerfed into oblivion for the sake of the game long ago if this was the case.

1.) Coteaz gets +1I. A guard SO gets a 5++. Coteaz gets a 2+, but the SO can take bodyguards.

But this is silly. You can't say with a straight face that coteaz is good in close combat when you're talking about a codex with crowe and draigo and mordrak. Even a regular terminator ordo malleus inquisitor is better in close combat than coteaz. Meanwhile, coteaz doesn't have much to do with shooting either, as the eagle isn't that great.

He's one of the least damaging HQ choices in the codex.

2.) No need to take an HQ for the purpose of doing what your troops are already doing. Unless your troops are henchmen, in which case, you'd want coteaz.

3.) Everything else coteaz can do, so can other stuff. Want divination? How about you take a librarian and you get to roll on it three times instead of two. Then you also get a force weapon. All you want is prescience? A grand master can guaranteed take it, and the grand master does actual strategic stuff like make things scoring or give them scouts (and is also beatier in close combat).

4.) Look harder.

 Ailaros wrote:
1.) Coteaz gets +1I. A guard SO gets a 5++. Coteaz gets a 2+, but the SO can take bodyguards.

But this is silly. You can't say with a straight face that coteaz is good in close combat when you're talking about a codex with crowe and draigo and mordrak. Even a regular terminator ordo malleus inquisitor is better in close combat than coteaz. Meanwhile, coteaz doesn't have much to do with shooting either, as the eagle isn't that great.

He's one of the least damaging HQ choices in the codex.

2.) No need to take an HQ for the purpose of doing what your troops are already doing. Unless your troops are henchmen, in which case, you'd want coteaz.

3.) Everything else coteaz can do, so can other stuff. Want divination? How about you take a librarian and you get to roll on it three times instead of two. Then you also get a force weapon. All you want is prescience? A grand master can guaranteed take it, and the grand master does actual strategic stuff like make things scoring or give them scouts (and is also beatier in close combat).

4.) Look harder.

1) I did not say Coteaz is some sort of close combat god, Not sure where you are getting 'that' from. That said a 3 wound functionally Str 6 model with a 2+ armour save and re-rolls to hit makes a passable CC model; much more so than your SO would represent. In any case Coteaz should be put in a unit with strong shooting as a force multiplier, not sent to the front lines to duke it out in CC.

2) You aren't taking him as an HQ to replace the effects of one of your troop choices, that is merely a bonus his presence provides. You are taking him to be able to take henchmen as troops, to go first more often than not, and finally to provide unusually cheap 'Divination' support to the ranged unit of your choice.

3) A Grand Master is not allowed to swap their powers at all, let alone roll on the Divination table. A Psyker Mastery 3 Librarian costs two times what Coteaz does, and 'still' doesn't provide the same utility apart from having similar psychic abilities. His master-crafted Daemon hammer is amongst other things a Force weapon too. Try again?

4) Judging from your answer to point 3, I'd question how familiar 'you' are with the codex in question.

If coteaz were really that good - really one of the best HQs in the game, much less the codex - if he were really that auto-include, you'd see him everywhere.

I can count on zero fingers the number of times I've see coteaz in a draigowing or a crowe purifier spam list. The only time you ever see coteaz is in a henchmen list, and that's because you MUST take him in order to run a henchmen list in the first place.

Henchmen are good, and so it's definitely worth taking him to make henchmen troops. Outside of henchmen, though, people don't take coteaz. Because he isn't very good. He's not very killy, he's not very durable, he doesn't have access to interesting equipment, and almost anything he can do can be done by someone else better.

Nitpick all you like, but that's just how it is.

Coteaz is absolutely taken in modern Draigowing lists, buffing the deathstar with divination is amazing and he brings so many other benefits for a small cost.

 Ailaros wrote:
If coteaz were really that good - really one of the best HQs in the game, much less the codex - if he were really that auto-include, you'd see him everywhere.

I can count on zero fingers the number of times I've see coteaz in a draigowing or a crowe purifier spam list. The only time you ever see coteaz is in a henchmen list, and that's because you MUST take him in order to run a henchmen list in the first place.

Henchmen are good, and so it's definitely worth taking him to make henchmen troops. Outside of henchmen, though, people don't take coteaz. Because he isn't very good. He's not very killy, he's not very durable, he doesn't have access to interesting equipment, and almost anything he can do can be done by someone else better.

Nitpick all you like, but that's just how it is.

1) I'm sorry, but your personal experiences (while legitimate) are not statistically relevant to this discussion. That said, he combos 'just' fine with either of those two examples you've listed: either one could do wonders with re-rolls to hit, First turn shenanigans, deepstrike area denial, etc since neither has it intrinsically. (the paladin deathstar in the first case and the purifier squad of your choice in the second)

I defy you to name a single model within 100 points or so that brings anything even 'close' to all of the options he puts on the table. While Coteaz may not be the best in CC of all time, nor the best shooter of all time, nor have the best special abilities of all time, nor be the best Psyker of all time, he does all four reasonably well, and does it for a ridiculous bargain price.

Yikes, he seems like he was serious. How can someone be so misguided? The value for the points is off the charts for Coteaz. I really hope this is some kind of long form joke.

 Ailaros wrote:
If coteaz were really that good - really one of the best HQs in the game, much less the codex - if he were really that auto-include, you'd see him everywhere.

I can count on zero fingers the number of times I've see coteaz in a draigowing or a crowe purifier spam list. The only time you ever see coteaz is in a henchmen list, and that's because you MUST take him in order to run a henchmen list in the first place.

Henchmen are good, and so it's definitely worth taking him to make henchmen troops. Outside of henchmen, though, people don't take coteaz. Because he isn't very good. He's not very killy, he's not very durable, he doesn't have access to interesting equipment, and almost anything he can do can be done by someone else better.

Nitpick all you like, but that's just how it is.

Cotaez is far and away the most commonly used GK HQ, and easily the best choice in the codex. I see him all the time in GK lists. He is 50 points less than a Librarian for the same psychic support + his other buffs. The Libby gets +1 WS, S and T and -1 attack and a 5++ save for 50 points. More than any other HQ in the book he fits into multiple lists.

Draigo never gets into lists without Paladins, Crowe Never gets into lists without purifiers, Cotaez gets into tons of lists. Is he great a shooting no, but nor is he bad (better than a storm bolter). Is he great in the assault? NO, but again nor is he bad, he has a S6 AP2 force weapon (which can go to S8 if he is in any GK squad that casts hammer hand.). HE grants stubborn to his squad.

IF we want to look at how undercosted he is lets compare him to the closest analog in the book, the Ordo Malleus Inquisitor in terminator armor with mastery level 1 is 95 points. Lets say that that the 5++ save is worth 15 points (for CSM this is what it costs).

So for 20 Points Cotaez gets +1 Mastery level (minimum 25 point upgrade), master crafted weapon +5 ( So that already puts us at him being 10 points under costed) then he also gets, cultists as troops, re-roll seize mechanic, IBEY (which does matter if you don't go first against drop pods, or play a paladin Deathstar without Warp Quake, it is also nice when you force a mishap with Quake, and you get to place the unit, and do so in cotaez range and he kills the squad.)

Lets put it this way, IMO you need to create reasons not to take him in a GK list for 100 points.

In a Draigowing he is cheap psychic support in an army short on points (also allows for cheap troops and deepstrike defense)
In Purifier spam again cheap psychic support and deepstrike defense in an army lacking those.
Henchaman spam....obvious.
Standard List, he is cheap and flexible, divination support is huge

There is literally no better GK HQ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh he also can be very durable, if he rolls precog, 2+ re-rollable save is good, then you look out sir AP to hits., or he can give 4++ to the rest of the squad. The second Div power is big.

I've never used coteaz but I do run Valeria quite a bit and I always take a varying henchmen squad even if its really cheap just to have it or to add some numbers to my army, I think they are worth it depending on your play style.