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I agree Vine. If it had interceptor there would be a massive outcry over the power of that tank. You have to look at it and consider the task its performing for you. Its cheaper than an ADL / Quad gun combo. Even with a bare 5 man squad, the quad gun combo is 100 points more. Its sturdiness compared to the ADL / Quad is debateable. Its not THAT easy to get through AV 12 with 3 HP. The Quad gun has a bit more versatility but for the points value of the Hunter, its a fair trade off.

Also remember that it has smoke launchers. If you know your opponent is likely going to be bringing on their Stormraven or Stormtalon you can pop your launchers to get a cover save. That should help a bit with survivability. If you do survive then that gunship will likely be gone or at the very least leaving airspace the following turn.

An interesting question: does servo-tracking allow you to fire at ground targets at BS2? Snap fire says you fire at BS1, but servo-tracking says you fire at BS2 with almost the exact same phrasing. Codex>BRB would mean that the stalker would have a dual purpose then, being 8 shots BS2 vs ground targets is still effective for the points.

it's my understanding that servo-tracking only applies if you're firing at two flying targets, using said option under the Icarus Stormcannon Array. If it's on the ground, Skyfire overrules the rest and says you fire at BS1.

This would be one of those cases of a rule needing specific permission to overrule snapfire. At least that would be my guess.

Stalkers can dual-target ground targets, not just air targets.

Not sure if skyfire needs to be overruled. 95% of modifications to BS in the game were either modifications to the firer's BS or an additive modifier. Both do not come into play because of the order of modifiers. PotMS was the only one i can think of that directly sets a firing value, but that ruling for the 5th SM PotMS is no longer valid as this is a 6th codex.

Even if this were the case, you would have to target two separate targets to benefit from Servo-tracking, so at best you get four BS2 shots instead of 4 TL BS1 shots.

They can use the servo-targeting to fire at 2 separate targets, that much is true. However nothing would allow them to fire at ground targets with BS 2. They would still be snap firing. That is one area where the stalker is actually better though. If your opponent has no flyers, FMC or skimmers, at least the Stalker has twin linked shots.

Right but since they don't have Interceptor, they fire at all targets on the ground at BS1. It's a set value modifier and applied last after any other modifiers are resolved.

But you have two competing set value modifiers. Servo-tracking is a set modifier also. Its not modifying the firer's BS, its modifying the shots.

This debate has surfaced a few times before. Not specifically to the Stalker, but the same issue came up when discussing some Tau stuff against flyers. I can't remember the specifics.

Ultimately you have 2 rules here that come into play. The servo tracking which says all shots are made at BS 2, and the Skyfire rule which says you must snapfire at ground targets, and snapfire is BS 1.

I can see the argument for BS 2 against ground targets. I understand it. I don't think its anymore RAW correct than snap fire forcing them to be BS 1.

This would be much more suited to the YMDC forum, but I hardly expect any consensus to be reached there. Perhaps submitting it to the FAQ thread might be a good idea.

One thing to remember is that both tanks each have a single weapon, which means they can move and fire at full effect. Try hiding your Hunter/Stalker out of LoS (behind a bastion or large ruin would work), then move out after the enemy flyer arrives and hit it then.

Alternatively, you can move 12" and still fire at non-skimming ground targets without losing anything.

Tried the Hunter out last night in my match. Turn 1 it snap fired at a Drednaught. Turn two is fired at a GK Stormraven, which successfully jinked. Since it technically "hit" but the jink cover save saved the raven, the savant lock didn't trigger. Turn three it fires at the raven again and misses due to jink. Turn four, raven flies off board due to locked velocity from a hit by a ADL Quad-gun. Turn five, fires at raven one last time and hits.

Granted, I only hit on the last round, but causing him to jink every turn with the raven means that I'm controlling the tempo and effectiveness of his air support. Between the ADL QG, the Hunter and two spare missile launchers with flak, his air support and deep strike became negligible. Think I'll try the stalker out next time to see how that goes.

I'm curious as to why people think that this unit will be great when time has shown that the hydra did not last in the tourney scene and these vehicles are quite similar in cost and what they do

 A GumyBear wrote:
I'm curious as to why people think that this unit will be great when time has shown that the hydra did not last in the tourney scene and these vehicles are quite similar in cost and what they do

The only reason you can't see the hydra is the Vendetta. When an IG player wants AA, he brings a Vendetta and not a Hydra.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:
I'm curious as to why people think that this unit will be great when time has shown that the hydra did not last in the tourney scene and these vehicles are quite similar in cost and what they do

The only reason you can't see the hydra is the Vendetta. When an IG player wants AA, he brings a Vendetta and not a Hydra.

And the Hydra's gun doesn't have Armorbane.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:
I'm curious as to why people think that this unit will be great when time has shown that the hydra did not last in the tourney scene and these vehicles are quite similar in cost and what they do

The only reason you can't see the hydra is the Vendetta. When an IG player wants AA, he brings a Vendetta and not a Hydra.

And the Hydra's gun doesn't have Armorbane.

Neither does the stalker

I think that the hydra is better than the stalker, and that what people choose to take to tournaments is not evidence of what is good or not. no one took thunderfire cannons to tournaments for much of 5th edition despite them being awesome....

 volatileart wrote:
Tried the Hunter out last night in my match. Turn 1 it snap fired at a Drednaught. Turn two is fired at a GK Stormraven, which successfully jinked. Since it technically "hit" but the jink cover save saved the raven, the savant lock didn't trigger. Turn three it fires at the raven again and misses due to jink. Turn four, raven flies off board due to locked velocity from a hit by a ADL Quad-gun. Turn five, fires at raven one last time and hits.

Granted, I only hit on the last round, but causing him to jink every turn with the raven means that I'm controlling the tempo and effectiveness of his air support. Between the ADL QG, the Hunter and two spare missile launchers with flak, his air support and deep strike became negligible. Think I'll try the stalker out next time to see how that goes.

Sounds like your AA did it's job, it negated his air superiority. He was so afraid of getting hit by the Hunter that he repeatedly chose to jink. Out of curiosity did his Stormraven have a squad embarked in it? Also, what happened to the Raven when you finally hit it? Did it go up in a ball of flame like we all hoped?

Just for overall utility, I'm still liking the Stalker more. Unfortunately, the Stalker is bad against the helldrake, but reasonable against everything else.

 alienvalentine wrote:

 volatileart wrote:
Tried the Hunter out last night in my match. Turn 1 it snap fired at a Drednaught. Turn two is fired at a GK Stormraven, which successfully jinked. Since it technically "hit" but the jink cover save saved the raven, the savant lock didn't trigger. Turn three it fires at the raven again and misses due to jink. Turn four, raven flies off board due to locked velocity from a hit by a ADL Quad-gun. Turn five, fires at raven one last time and hits.

Granted, I only hit on the last round, but causing him to jink every turn with the raven means that I'm controlling the tempo and effectiveness of his air support. Between the ADL QG, the Hunter and two spare missile launchers with flak, his air support and deep strike became negligible. Think I'll try the stalker out next time to see how that goes.

Sounds like your AA did it's job, it negated his air superiority. He was so afraid of getting hit by the Hunter that he repeatedly chose to jink. Out of curiosity did his Stormraven have a squad embarked in it? Also, what happened to the Raven when you finally hit it? Did it go up in a ball of flame like we all hoped?

Sadly when I did hit, it pen'd and all I got was a crew shaken result. Then he used Fortitude(?) to get rid of that with a psychic test, since he was running GK. Granted, I play against him as part of our local group and trust him, but I don't know much of anything about GK except "don't let Nemsis Dreadknights or Purgation Squads in close" and " Crowe is a suicide bomber".
The raven had a squad in it when it came on, but he chose to risk the deep strike out of it cause of the ADL w/quad-gun and the Hunter potentially blowing it down and causing all the s10 AP1 to them.
All and all, was pretty pleased with the Hunter and it was 70 points well spent in that particular match-up, IMHO

jamin484 wrote:
I think that the hydra is better than the stalker, and that what people choose to take to tournaments is not evidence of what is good or not. no one took thunderfire cannons to tournaments for much of 5th edition despite them being awesome....

In 5th all it took was a glance on that squishy av 10 platform and it was destroyed.

Once 6th hit it got a lot more durable and became amazing

 volatileart wrote:

 alienvalentine wrote:

 volatileart wrote:
Tried the Hunter out last night in my match. Turn 1 it snap fired at a Drednaught. Turn two is fired at a GK Stormraven, which successfully jinked. Since it technically "hit" but the jink cover save saved the raven, the savant lock didn't trigger. Turn three it fires at the raven again and misses due to jink. Turn four, raven flies off board due to locked velocity from a hit by a ADL Quad-gun. Turn five, fires at raven one last time and hits.

Granted, I only hit on the last round, but causing him to jink every turn with the raven means that I'm controlling the tempo and effectiveness of his air support. Between the ADL QG, the Hunter and two spare missile launchers with flak, his air support and deep strike became negligible. Think I'll try the stalker out next time to see how that goes.

Sounds like your AA did it's job, it negated his air superiority. He was so afraid of getting hit by the Hunter that he repeatedly chose to jink. Out of curiosity did his Stormraven have a squad embarked in it? Also, what happened to the Raven when you finally hit it? Did it go up in a ball of flame like we all hoped?

Sadly when I did hit, it pen'd and all I got was a crew shaken result. Then he used Fortitude(?) to get rid of that with a psychic test, since he was running GK. Granted, I play against him as part of our local group and trust him, but I don't know much of anything about GK except "don't let Nemsis Dreadknights or Purgation Squads in close" and " Crowe is a suicide bomber".
The raven had a squad in it when it came on, but he chose to risk the deep strike out of it cause of the ADL w/quad-gun and the Hunter potentially blowing it down and causing all the s10 AP1 to them.
All and all, was pretty pleased with the Hunter and it was 70 points well spent in that particular match-up, IMHO

All kidding aside, I think my mind is made up, Hunter it is.

 A GumyBear wrote:

jamin484 wrote:
I think that the hydra is better than the stalker, and that what people choose to take to tournaments is not evidence of what is good or not. no one took thunderfire cannons to tournaments for much of 5th edition despite them being awesome....

In 5th all it took was a glance on that squishy av 10 platform and it was destroyed.

Once 6th hit it got a lot more durable and became amazing

You still had to roll a dice to see if you hit the tech marine or the gun, and it usually had a 3+ cover because it was in ruins which had been fortified. Regardless, the cannon is not good because of its durability (its still not durable given the current meta) its good because of its damage output.

jamin484 wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:

jamin484 wrote:
I think that the hydra is better than the stalker, and that what people choose to take to tournaments is not evidence of what is good or not. no one took thunderfire cannons to tournaments for much of 5th edition despite them being awesome....

In 5th all it took was a glance on that squishy av 10 platform and it was destroyed.

Once 6th hit it got a lot more durable and became amazing

You still had to roll a dice to see if you hit the tech marine or the gun, and it usually had a 3+ cover because it was in ruins which had been fortified. Regardless, the cannon is not good because of its durability (its still not durable given the current meta) its good because of its damage output.

Well actually vs small arms fire, 3 T7 wounds with 3+ cover can actually be a major pain to deal with. Thank the All-Father for Missilefangs.

This seems like a no brainer. 1 s7 shot, or 8? HMMMMM. I don't know.. I don't care what other benefits or downsides the guns have, 8 beats 1 any day of the week.

6th ed is all about high rate of fire weapons. Unless you're trying to kill a Land Raider, killing a vehicle by removing hullpoints will almost always be the more efficient and cost effective option. When you factor in the versatility that a high ROF gun offers in being able to threaten infantry as well, the already clear choice becomes even more clear.

I think two stalkers and a single TFC will synergie well and see a lot of board time.

As for the hydra/stalker question; Stalkers have access to marine USR's. They are also fielded alongside marine slots as compared to guard slots.

I agree about ROF fires & hullpoint stripping. Whilst the hunter is good, there are plenty of armourbane weapons in form of melta weaponary. The utility of the stalker far outweighs the utility of the hunter.

What I've taken to doing is Allying in Dark Angels to add a Librarian to my backfield. If I really, absolutely must kill a flyer, I just prescience my Hunter. That single shot being twin linked makes it all the more likely to hit. I also run a Dev Squad, so the Libby adds a PFG to my backfield as well, which helps a lot.

This seems like a no brainer. 1 s7 shot, or 8? HMMMMM. I don't know.. I don't care what other benefits or downsides the guns have, 8 beats 1 any day of the week

Remember, those 8 shots would be 4 against 2 different targets. At BS 2 no less. 4 shots hitting on 5's only results in an average of 1.32 hits, which translates into 0.66 HP lost per target you fired at.

Razerous wrote:
I think two stalkers and a single TFC will synergie well and see a lot of board time.

As for the hydra/stalker question; Stalkers have access to marine USR's. They are also fielded alongside marine slots as compared to guard slots.

I agree about ROF fires & hullpoint stripping. Whilst the hunter is good, there are plenty of armourbane weapons in form of melta weaponary. The utility of the stalker far outweighs the utility of the hunter.

access to Marine USR's???? Please to be explaining?

For example, it has access to chapter tactics or by extension, it benefits from rules other models get.

The Stalker also has something the Hydra doesn't, BS4. This means that on average, all four TL shots hit rather than three. This may seem like a small difference, but it can matter.