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weeble1000 wrote:
The question is whether you think that means something important? Do such products deserve to be on the market just because somebody wants to buy them?

Of course. Who would have the authority to say otherwise, and on what grounds? Taste law?

weeble1000 wrote:
Are they unique creative expressions based on the objective reality that somebody values precisely the uniqueness of the product's aesthetics?

Again, of course. Everything that is not a direct copy is unique, to a smaller or larger extent. "Not X" models typically do not use a single part of a GW model, so no matter how similar they look in the end, they are 100% different and thus unique artistic expressions.

weeble1000 wrote:
Does the increasing prevalence of these products improve the industry or hurt it? Why or why not?

I guess that depends on what you count as "improvement" and what "the industry" is. Will it ultimately lead to more choice for the consumer, at competitive prices? I would think so, yes, that's what competition usually leads to.

In the end, what is happening to the fantasy wargaming market is already the norm in every other market I know. You have to compete, via quality, price, or catering to specific tastes. I simply fail to see why companies like GW or Apple, for example, expect to get special treatment just because they happen to be the biggest fish in the pond at the moment.

Joyboozer wrote:
I didn't ask how you feel about them I asked you to describe their style. You're ranting, pure and simple. This is worse than the Native American thread you started on Warseer.

But your request for a description of their style is completely irrelevant to this discussion. It has nothing to do with CHS', or any other third party manufacturer's, contribution to the marketplace.

weeble1000 wrote:


That is largely irrelevant to the discussion, isn't it? The CHS "style" versus the Kromlech, Maximini, Scibor, Puppets War, Anvil Industries, Mantic, Games Workshop, etc. and so forth "styles" are all a matter of subjective opinion that we can't really discuss in anything approaching a concrete manner.
?

Maybe I'm nuts, but I actually think "style" is completely relevant to the discussion, especially when were talking a lot about derivative products. For me, I find that the 3rd party bits makers I typically buy from, I do so because they have a distinct style that makes them clearly not-GW. Scibor minis have a definitive style. Kromlech Orks certainly have a definite style. Raging Heroes models have a distinct style. As does Avatars of War. I think one of the problems I have with CHSs Space Marine derivations is that there isn't any clear stylistic effort to them, really at all. It's also why I'm much more accepting of their eldar stuff.

@Az - I think the other "not-Centurian" I've seen looks like gak, quite honestly. The sculpt is pretty rudimentary and, to me, it's barely a step up from a Mechwarrior mini, which while i acknowledge that there are tons of people that like them, I think the new DZC and Heavy Gear stuff shows how 10mm mecha can be done well. I hadn't posted anything about in that other thread because I'm making a real attempt to follow the "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all" notion. Not always successfully, but I'm trying. .

Define style.

I will not express my opinion about CHS but will talk about this subject in a more general sense.

Not minis are easier to sell, less risky to produce and involve a lot less creative effort/investment, from a economical point only thats more than enough reasons for companies to produce them.

From a moral point of view and if they are a value to the market... I have little to add because there are many grey areas on this issue. here's some:

- Starter companies may leech when they start but nothing tells us that when they have a better financial backup that they will not develop their own " original stuff".

- The market is so small and niche that Not minis sometimes cover a licence that have little or no expression on the market... in short I would love to see official stuff as anyone but if no one releases say some xenomorphs then I will buy from who takes the risk of making some in 28mm

- Value to the market is such a wide concept that I don't know how to even identify this... for one most of us only have a very limited angle on the full extent of the market.


So yeah I leave moral to moralist and concentrate on my micro reality and reject commission sculpting " not GW " stuff. Fed up of GW drama.

Maybe it's because I come from an art background, but for me, this question is a really easy one. Is the product more aesthetically pleasing than other products that fulfill the same role? Is the price within what I consider a reasonable range? If so, then buy. It does come down to quality, though. Just about any product is worth putting on the market if it's good. If CHS can create a "centurion" which is, at least for some people, better than what GW offers, then why shouldn't they sell it?

Im quite happy to buy "counts as" models for my armies and create them for sale too

I like to have variety and the more available parts in a force I like. Take WD for example, ever sm force you see is the same.

As for casting things? well my business is based on creating alternatives for gw models as thats my main sales point. whats the use in me making models I then have no game system/market for, apart from them looking pretty?

If they want to sell compatible parts, they will be the same "style". If they werent the same style, they wouldnt be visually compatible and to large extents they may well not be physically compatible. Styles though, are abstracts. You can not gain an exclusive right to something abstract, nor should you be able to. It would not be any different than if I were to buy some plywood at the local Home Depot and build some shelves in the same style as you might buy from Ikea.

The other issues go down to preference. Cincey, for whatever reason doesnt like them...though to be honest, I dont like them either, granted that is more to do with not liking anything in the GW style (tyranids arent bad...but that is mostly because they are far removed from GWs style). Me not liking them though does not prevent me from recognizing what they add to the industry in general (not just the specific figures, but in general).

We have seen in the past few years the impact that companies like CHS have been having on GW. It is unlikely that they would follow the current release schedule were it not for them (as well as releasing all figures for a codex). Beyond that, it meets a consumer demand. I am all for consumers having control over the market. If a company wants to invest in an alternative figure or part, then it should be left to the consumer whether or not it is worthwhile. If it isnt, the market will sort itself out.

In order to compete, the primary company has to provide a more valuable product. This is good for the consumer as well.