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 Omegus wrote:
Plus the whole Picture of Dorian Grey but with poop thing was kind of silly.

Wait... what?

The only HH novel I have read is Angel Exterminatus. That being said, Bile gives me nightmares and Perturabo is probably one of those few who I do feel sorry for, but I wish he had gone about seeking absolution through different means. He doesn't seem to have any real hint of chaos taint, and the way he kept wanting to blast Fulgrim's crew to bits always lit a fire in my heart. Going back on things, yes, he did have a real cause for being upset, what with his brother being constantly credited for building the greatest buildings in the galaxy, when in hindsight it was actually Perturabo that was developing the unsung masterpieces. Had Perturabo not fallen into folds of the Traitor Primarchs, I would have paid dearly to see Perturabo survive the Battle of Terra and draw his plans to rebuild it to his designs. That being said, it also didn't help that he did most of the grunt work and his brothers turned into the Galactic Partridges to steal the glory. However, I do wish that he could have simply sat down with them, and spoken to them about his issues and worked them out. Loyalist Iron Warriors are a passion of mine.

 streamdragon wrote:

Wait... what?

In Fulgrim, a young artist corrupted by Slaanesh paints a portrait of Fulgrim out of blood, her poop, piss, spit, and lots of other cool stuff like that, and the Daemon within Fulgrim's sword chooses to talk to him through the painting.

Graham McNeill gives no feths.

Yeah the dookie painting was a little over the top. But Fulgrim thought it was hot gak and showed it off to every one.

 SheSpits wrote:
But Fulgrim thought it was hot gak

Ha.

Dorn - no pity, like, or even respect. He's basically some overreacting weirdo. He's like angron without a reason to be.
Horus - Favored, then abandoned. I feel pity for him solely because I know how this feels.
Magnus - Yes, because he realizes his mistakes and hubris but just can't fix it. He's one of the real tragedies.
Russ - This guy is basically werewolf Dick Cheney. No pity at all.
Mortarion - I still don't get why he turned. At all. No pity.
Angron - A little. For someone to lose the only "family" they ever had is nasty. Add in the nails, but what really made me like him (and therefore be able to have empathy for him) was his argument with Russ. This guy knows what the imperium will be, and he was right.
Fulgrim - None whatsoever. This preening fop would have been some kind of issue eventually.
Lorgar - A great deal. It's just obvious he was shoehorned into his role as a general and it was not a good fit.
Khan - He's just a name, there's no character here to feel anything for.
Vulkan - Haven't read Vulkan Lives yet, but the general "most human" primarch I like in principle.
Ferrus - Oh feth him. He lamented the lack of humanity his men were striving towards yet rarely showed any humanity himself. The only person he seemed like a person with was Fulgrim, which is weird.
Corax - I read a book in which he was the main character, and still know little about "him". He's like a 2 dimensional Khan.
Guilliman - No pity, just respect. This is Horus without the need for Daddy's love/approval/companionship.
Sanguinius - He's a little too perfect for my taste, but maybe that's why he's an angel.
The lion - None at all. However I do respect his relative freedom, as he seems to make decisions for himself.
Perturabo - My favorite. I have some empathy for him, but realize he's at fault for most of his issues. Reminds me of myself. Except the whole superhuman, super smart, super skilled part, just the broken stuff.
Kurze - He chose, not to choose a different way. No pity.

Vulgar wrote:

Russ - This guy is basically werewolf Dick Cheney. No pity at all.

I fething lol'd. All of my exalts.

had to steal it for sig lol

Damn, beaten to it! I lol'd.

I think we've just seen the birth of a new Dakka meme.

 Therion wrote:
the most childish and petty motive possible, especially for a soldier.

Don't get me wrong, basically all of the Traitor Primarchs had feeble and childish excuses for betraying not so much the Emperor but the Empire they built and the whole of Mankind. Sure, some do believe that Chaos is the one true path for humanity but that came after the 'my daddy doesn't love me enough' stuff.

On the other hand the Primarchs aren't exactly soldiers. Look at Lorgar, he is a scholar and a priest, not a soldier, not a warrior and not even much of a leader; he is a teacher and should have been used as such and had his efforts redirected where they clashed with the Emperor's own vision for what was best for Humanity.

A lot of this trouble stems from the Emperor and His misuse of His creations. I'd like to thing, going by a certain reading of the HH books that the Emperor saw the Heresy as leading to the ultimate victory against Chaos and acted like He did for that reason.

Vulgar wrote:

Perturabo - My favorite. I have some empathy for him, but realize he's at fault for most of his issues. Reminds me of myself. Except the whole superhuman, super smart, super skilled part, just the broken stuff.

This I agree with fully.

I feel a degree of sympathy for Magnus, Lorgar (initially), Angron, Curze, Vulkan (recently)

I'll admit to not being at all up to date with Heresy knowledge since there are just so many fething books in this series now to have a reasonable chance of catching up after taking a year out of the hobby, but I basically share the sentiments of most people in the thread. Lorgar, Magnus, Sanguinus, Ferrus to an extent, Horus, and Angron and Curze.

I also kind of liked Fulgrim, despite the gak painting and the massive stage orgy being very weird to read, so I feel a little for Fulgrim. Trapped for eternity, his body stolen by a deamon, realising his mistakes too late, killing his behst fwend, pretty tragic.

Your information on Fulgrim may be a little out of date iproxtaco.

Read The Mirror Crack'd for the advancement of Fulgrim's development.

Also to see a Space Marine touch a Primarch's penis.

Lorgar ... not only is he manipulated like a puppet by chaos / kor phaeron & erberus, but out of all of the primarchs he isn't a powerful psyker or fighter.


corax almost decimates him one on one before kurze steps in and then tells lorgar how pathetic he is .... he's definitely the last pick on the dodge ball team when the primarchs got together back on terra

 Whereswaldo wrote:
Lorgar ... not only is he manipulated like a puppet by chaos / kor phaeron & erberus, but out of all of the primarchs he isn't a powerful psyker or fighter.


corax almost decimates him one on one before kurze steps in and then tells lorgar how pathetic he is .... he's definitely the last pick on the dodge ball team when the primarchs got together back on terra

Lorgar is the second most powerful psyker among the Primarchs, enough to telepathically compel Horus. He also beat the crap out of daemon Fulgrim (sneak attack, though), and supposedly would have crushed Guilliman in combat if he decided on that route (though he went for the "selfless" bloody crusade across the universe route).

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

I apologize for any slight to ADB. Along with Abnett, he's one of the few writers that I trust to be able to handle Primarchs well. (And I agree with you that Abnett never intended for the chief emotion evoked by Alpharius to be pity.) Unfortunately, some of the truly atrocious narrative turns (particularly the loathsome nonsense that was Fulgrim) turned me off of the series before ADB got a shot. I've been thinking about picking up The First Heretic and Betrayer at some point, though.

I think ADB is actually the single most overrated author in BL to be honest. Maybe it's because I have yet to read his Night Lords trilogy, but the rest of his work did not inspire near as much awe from me, and one really good trilogy does not a god tier author make.

The First Heretic is good though.

Betrayer is not.

I think we like different things in the BL, though. (If I recall, you don't like Abnett either, am I right?) That's perfectly ok, I'm not knocking your tastes. One of the best parts about Black Library fiction is that the setting is so vast and expansive that it can accommodate a wide variety of authors with a wide variety of styles. Some people love Ben Counter, and I find his writing to be abhorrent. Some people dislike ADB, but I personally think he's one of the best writers out there.

For years I despised the very concept of Chaos marines, since they were (as written in the books) completely nonsensical. Just absolutely ridiculous. I liked the Night Lords trilogy primarily because he managed to turn me around on the idea of Chaos. I'm hoping he will be able to do the same with his Black Legion series. (His comments on the subject so far have me drooling for the first book, I'll be honest.) Of course, I'm willing to admit to being a fairly devout fan of Bowden's, so I may not be the most unbiased person on the subject, but if you like 'no-heroes-here' stories like Unforgiven, Get Shorty, or Mark Millar's Wanted (the book, not the movie), then you should definitely check out Soul Hunter. It was the first ADB book I read (before I'd ever heard of him) and it was what got me hooked on his work.

ADB is definitely a beast for sure.

Anyone know if the rumors are true that ADB is going to write more NL novels, primarily future HH NL novels? (With Jago Sevatarion as the main protagonist if IIRC from one of his blog posts)

Void__Dragon wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

Wait... what?

In Fulgrim, a young artist corrupted by Slaanesh paints a portrait of Fulgrim out of blood, her poop, piss, spit, and lots of other cool stuff like that, and the Daemon within Fulgrim's sword chooses to talk to him through the painting.

Graham McNeill gives no feths.

hahahaha wow. WOW. Pretty much cements my belief that Black Library can't possibly be considered actual 40k canon.

Vulgar wrote:Russ - This guy is basically werewolf Dick Cheney. No pity at all.

oh my. Do they even present Leman Russ as caring about his subordinates? Surely at least that?

Void__Dragon wrote:Your information on Fulgrim may be a little out of date iproxtaco.

Read The Mirror Crack'd for the advancement of Fulgrim's development.

Also to see a Space Marine touch a Primarch's penis.

BL going after that niche slashfic market, or just trying to take the trophy from Star Wars expanded universe for "worst stuff ever"?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Your information on Fulgrim may be a little out of date iproxtaco.

Read The Mirror Crack'd for the advancement of Fulgrim's development.

Also to see a Space Marine touch a Primarch's penis.

I just read Fulgrim's wiki page to get the gist of it, and.... well.

Seems like a pretty weird and pointless development. Why the fairly simple story of Fulgrim's descent into corruption needed to be complicated like this I have no idea.

I dont really feel sorry for Alpharius but consider this.

All the Primarch have a daddy complex. They are super humans growing up quickly on strange worlds where no one is their equal. But at least the Emperor eventually comes to their distance strange worlds and greets them "hey son, here I am, you are not alone." Each Primarch one day say a great landing party fly down from space and a great man come out searching for them, as if to vindicate their specialness.
Most of them even had daddy like figures on their planet that they emulated, befriended, rebelled against, or ultimately killed.

We dont know where Alpharius landed, but shortly after he seems to have gotten on a spaceship and started raiding. around doing his own thing searching for Daddy. It is possible he didnt land on a planet at all, and grew up in the cold of space. Big E didnt go searching for Alpharius and he never found him. It was Alpharius who found Horus, not his father but his more mature brother. He then didnt meet any of his other brothers or father for several months, as Horus kept him away.

From the daddy issue part, I think Alpharius had it the worst. Daddy wasnt even looking for him, and didnt seem to care.

Horus - Feel like he was kinda forced with being brought to the lodge to be corrupted. I get that he wasn't totally forced, but what if he was never injured or had just never healed and died?

Magnus - Yes, Emps decided to keep his webway project secret (not sure why because everyone at this point was trustworthy) and Magnus had no idea of the ramifications of his warning. Unjustly and grossly over punished (i know that it wasnt the Emperor's intention, but from Magnus' view it looked that way)

Russ - Think at the end of his recorded life he got kind of depressed. Like the anti-hero comic character that realizes he's done a lot of bad things and goes off to be forgotten. my take anyway. Feel bad mostly for his legion not being able to cure the Canis Helix, but then again it is pretty cool/unique.

Mortarion - Though he sided with Horus before being trapped in the warp and infected with the Destroyer Plague, i do feel a little bit for the guy. Some part of me feels like he had sided with Horus for political reasons (as someone before me stated) and wasn't about to be ruled by a regular human, but never intended to fall as far as he had to to survive thanks to Nurgle. (Random bit, but I used to always think of this guy being enormous. Not just tall but thick as well. Maybe thats because all plague marines are bloated but never thought of him being skeletal or thin.)

Angron - Yah totally. For all of the benevolence the Emps is supposed to have, it was pretty frekkin cold of him to watch slaves get butchered without intervening. Thought the crusade would have him conquer the planet and institute his fair laws. Always felt like he grabbed Angron and bounced from the planet. I'd probably never forgive the guy who kidnapped me from my original battle brothers and intentionally or not let me watch them die. Then he goes to claim hes my "father" all within 48 hours of meeting him? Survivor's guilt can be that strong.

Fulgrim - a little? Maybe? I did at first when he was being controlled and forced to kill his best friend but never really more than just there.

Lorgar - Yeah, I think he was a victim to his upbringing. Religious zealotry always bothers me. I blame half on him half on the world he landed. Emps was harsh on him though, IIRC Lorgar (and Gulliman) was doing the best at bringing worlds into compliance, and setting up the government after he left. He just took longer.

Khan - Feel bad for his lack of development. He always kinda surprised me with his lack of presence. Feel like the fierce tribesman hes supposed to be would have a strong point of view on everything.

Vulkan - Feel bad for his legion being nearly destroyed. He's always been doing his best.

Ferrus - Yeah absolutely. Think he felt the betrayal the hardest and paid for it dearly. That being said he should have retreated when Vulkan and Corax were pulling out as well.

Corax - Sort of. Think it sucks that his fast Astartes creation method was messed with by the Alpha Legion which drove him to guilt. That being said it was his call to even start that.

Sanguinius - Sort of. He lived his life doing his duty and the best he could. Other than dying he's not really one to feel bad for. His legion I worry/feel sorry for because with the Inquisition looking for a reason to call them mutants all basically go back to Sanguinius' death.

Perturabo - Yeah. Feel like he never really got his shot, and when he did something else eclipsed it. Don't really think this would turn him to chaos though. Maybe drive him to try harder and harder to catch the eye, but not become emo.

Curze - Yeah, this guy never stood a chance with the cards in his hand.

Alpharius Omegon - Yeah. I always liked this primarch (these primarchs). Think their choice to go to Chaos to defeat Chaos was kinda silly, but I do like to think they may not be completely corrupted. I feel bad that the outcome they sought to avoid actually happened anyway, despite the sacrifice they had to make for it.

Fulgrim: Nope, he was a jerkass before he ever started talking to gak paintings or ripping his penis off*.

Horus: Eh, McNeill dropped the ball in False Gods, making Horus something of a huge douchebag. His portrayal in Horus Rising was spectacular though, you could really feel the buttsad emanating from him.

Lion El'Jonson: Depends on if you are able to feel sorry for people who through chance happened to be born unfeeling sociopaths.

Magnus the Red: Oh yes.

Lorgar: Yeah, it sucks being born to do something you really don't want to do.

Mortarion: Too sinister from the start to be pitiable.

Perturabo: Mah birdcages.

Leman Russ: What a self-righteous douche.

Ferrus Manus: Pretty gakky way to go, and such a loyal guy of true integrity and disciprine. Truly one of the unsung heroes of 40k.

Vulkan: How could you not feel sorry for him? Being sucked into the worst sub-plot in the series is terrible indeed.

Rogal Dorn: Can you feel sorry for a hurricane? Nor can you feel sorry for Rogal Dorn. The man is a force of nature, a raging tempest of insanity that can not be controlled.

Roboute Guilliman: Nothing bad really happens to him, relatively speaking.

Sanguinius: Yes, for self-evident reasons.

Jaghatai Khan: You could no more feel sorry for the Khan than you could Gaviel Loken's favorite chair. The Khan is a piece of the scenery.

Konrad Curze: Yeah, there was basically no hope for this guy to grow into a stable element in Imperial society.

Angron: Read above, add in being screwed over by daddy before it became the cool thing to do.

Corax: AND CORAX CRIED A SINGLE TEAR

Alpharius Omegon: Ew

Get ... OUT ... of my ... head

To be fair not all of them have been fleshed out so far in the HH series.

However, they are god like beings who control the lives of millions. The were spoiled brats who were gifted vast armies (yes they were power beings before hand) just through birth right.

You don't feel sorry for someone who was slighted / tricked and therefore go on to kill billions of people.

The ones i feel for are the ones who carried on getting the job done. Loyal to the one who gave them everything. The ones who did so with little to no fanfare (I mean Drama on their behalf).

Ferrus
G Man
Dorn
Vulkan

I don't know much about the Khan or Corax

Russ has always come across as arrogant / ignorant. Like wise the Lion.

The only traitor i would say gets a pass is Magnus. Although he was told to stop dabbling in the warp i do not think it was his fault that he was basically blasted off his planet.

Also Fulgrim and that painting - not so bad. I mean (I don't recall the writer) he had to push the boundaries with Fulgrim depravity somehow. That you feel off about it says it (kinda) worked.
It seems a lot of people don't like the who Slaneeshi thing but again without doing sick stuff it would be just "evil god guy/girl". He/She needs flavor.

I felt sorry only for Lorgar...


To quote sigilite - If just one of them could be saved, he would pick Lorgar, because he was such a fragile mind and IoM really messed when he had to kneel before the Emp...

Dorn - mucho loko, no

Perurabo - nope, evil genius

Fulgrim - nope

Angron - yeah he was a bit tragic, but NO

Magnus -from tragedy to genuine, igorant duchebag, for changing side and turning to Horus eventualy - because yeah, Horus gave the order to SW to kill him and his legion, blame the sword, hug the killer

Russ - in Scars book when he founds out he was duped by Horus into attacking Red he is quite humbled, borderline depressing, but nope, he should have been more wise

Lion - NO

Bobby G - wot ?

Angel boy - nope, Angels have no place in 40k

Morty - after Draigo , I feel sorry for him only in literary sense

Curze - nope, I feel sorry for the guys he flayed

Khan - moonwalking on the stage for DE ? nope (I really tried)

Hmmm.

Lion-Nope, I'm a huge DA fanboy but the Lion's pretty much solely responsible for the creation of the Fallen. I admired his willpower and loyalty to the Emperor though, or at least I did until 'The Lion' was published and he became a non-stop train wreck of comedy gold.

Fulgrim-What a loser, and that's not just because I play Iron Hands. Anyone who listens to his sword, second favourite brother and one or two members of his Legion more than his father, favourite brother and pretty much everyone else is below pity.

Perturabo-Yes, like many have said I think he's both one of the most sympathetic Primarchs and could also have been one of the most loyal. He was really dicked over by pretty much everyone-having the only artistic representation of your Legion during the Crusade being a painting of them being literally ground into the mud (by their own allies!) would make anyone snap, especially if that had been going on for years on end.

Khan-I haven't read 'Brotherhood of the Storm' or 'Scars', but he seems to have his gak in order.

Russ-...sort of. What he did to Magnus was a bit dickish, but as you'll see I can forgive him for that.

Dorn-HAHAHAHA. No. What an utter dull 'pillock' (remaining PG13). I maintain that he is arguably the worst Primarch if only because there's not a single interesting thing about his character besides him being a complete tool. I could have some sympathy for his emo-wangst after Daddy's death, but the fact that he nearly started another civil war over his inability to climb down out his own mass removes any sort of pity I might feel for him.

Curze-Yes. Poor guy, he never really had a chance, and to top it all off he was RIGHT. Plus, Black Library seem to hate him so you've got to feel for the kid.

Sanguinius-Yes. Out of all of them Horus' betrayal clearly cut him the most deeply, and it was sad that arguably the most tragic deaths went to one of the few Primarchs who was genuinely a nice guy.

Ferrus-This might be surprising, but until recently I actually loathed Ferrus. I thought he was an utter meathead, and still do to some extent. However, recently I've begun to grow more attatched to old iron-fist, and when you look at the qualities that Ferrus represented-perserverence, confidence, a strive to be better, as well as genuine concern for his sons' mental wellbeing and an admission of his own flaws-it's hard not to be affected by the nature of his death. As somebody else mentioned, he should have pulled back with Vulkan and Corax though, and is almost single (iron) handedly responsible for giving the Chapter it's frankly insane outlook in 'modern' 40k.

Angron-another guy who was shot in the leg before the race began. Part of me finds it difficult to connect with Angron because he never seems to be in any mode other than shouty, but that's justifiable I guess and losing your entire family whilst someone who claimed to be your 'father' just watched would feth anyone over.

Roboute-Nah, I like Robby but he almost seems to come off better from the Heresy. He loses a planet? Boo hoo, Calth for Monarchia seems a fair trade.

Mortarion-Much like Robby, there's nothing to feel sorry for. Morty made his choice of his own free will and suffered the consequences, but he seems pretty cool about that so in a way you don't need to pity him.

Magnus-Not for a single moment. It's a shame for a guy who had such a lot of potential, but I think Magnus is undoubtedly one of the biggest losers in the entire series, and in some ways the razing of Prospero wasn't enough injury to him. Almost every single decision he makes is the wrong one, due to his own arrogance and inability to admit 'maybe I might not know best', and the one time he does do something sensible (i.e. throw himself into a hopeless battle to buy his sons time, although he'll die himself) he can't even follow through and do that right. The only one I feel sorry for is Ahriman, for having to spend so much time with him-terrible, terrible Primarch.

Horus-Ehhh. His daddy issues were convincing enough in Horus Rising, but in almost every appearance after that he seems to be juggling the idiot ball. I've a feeling the final battle will make me care again though.

Lorgar-poor, poor Lorgar. Much like Curze, the fact that he was right just makes his whole messed up situation worse, and his insistence to Corax that "but he lied...Father lied..." was just heartbreaking.

Vulkan-Night Lords are unashamedly my favourite Legion, but even I wouldn't want to be locked up in Curze's sex dungeon. I mainly feel sorry for the Sallie players who waited so long for some attention and then had to make do with the truly diabolical 'Vulkan Lives'.

Corax-Much like Vulkan, it's unfortunate that Corax's focus book was lackluster and changed so much of the fluff, because it made me like him a lot less than I could. I still do feel for him regarding the whol guilt over his mutants thing, although he did kind of bring it on himself.

Alpharius-Alpharius has a personality?

 Gabriel Santar wrote:
Hmmm.

Lion-Nope, I'm a huge DA fanboy but the Lion's pretty much solely responsible for the creation of the Fallen. I admired his willpower and loyalty to the Emperor though, or at least I did until 'The Lion' was published and he became a non-stop train wreck of comedy gold.

Fulgrim-What a loser, and that's not just because I play Iron Hands. Anyone who listens to his sword, second favourite brother and one or two members of his Legion more than his father, favourite brother and pretty much everyone else is below pity.

Perturabo-Yes, like many have said I think he's both one of the most sympathetic Primarchs and could also have been one of the most loyal. He was really dicked over by pretty much everyone-having the only artistic representation of your Legion during the Crusade being a painting of them being literally ground into the mud (by their own allies!) would make anyone snap, especially if that had been going on for years on end.

Khan-I haven't read 'Brotherhood of the Storm' or 'Scars', but he seems to have his gak in order.

Russ-...sort of. What he did to Magnus was a bit dickish, but as you'll see I can forgive him for that.

Dorn-HAHAHAHA. No. What an utter dull 'pillock' (remaining PG13). I maintain that he is arguably the worst Primarch if only because there's not a single interesting thing about his character besides him being a complete tool. I could have some sympathy for his emo-wangst after Daddy's death, but the fact that he nearly started another civil war over his inability to climb down out his own mass removes any sort of pity I might feel for him.

Curze-Yes. Poor guy, he never really had a chance, and to top it all off he was RIGHT. Plus, Black Library seem to hate him so you've got to feel for the kid.

Sanguinius-Yes. Out of all of them Horus' betrayal clearly cut him the most deeply, and it was sad that arguably the most tragic deaths went to one of the few Primarchs who was genuinely a nice guy.

Ferrus-This might be surprising, but until recently I actually loathed Ferrus. I thought he was an utter meathead, and still do to some extent. However, recently I've begun to grow more attatched to old iron-fist, and when you look at the qualities that Ferrus represented-perserverence, confidence, a strive to be better, as well as genuine concern for his sons' mental wellbeing and an admission of his own flaws-it's hard not to be affected by the nature of his death. As somebody else mentioned, he should have pulled back with Vulkan and Corax though, and is almost single (iron) handedly responsible for giving the Chapter it's frankly insane outlook in 'modern' 40k.

Angron-another guy who was shot in the leg before the race began. Part of me finds it difficult to connect with Angron because he never seems to be in any mode other than shouty, but that's justifiable I guess and losing your entire family whilst someone who claimed to be your 'father' just watched would feth anyone over.

Roboute-Nah, I like Robby but he almost seems to come off better from the Heresy. He loses a planet? Boo hoo, Calth for Monarchia seems a fair trade.

Mortarion-Much like Robby, there's nothing to feel sorry for. Morty made his choice of his own free will and suffered the consequences, but he seems pretty cool about that so in a way you don't need to pity him.

Magnus-Not for a single moment. It's a shame for a guy who had such a lot of potential, but I think Magnus is undoubtedly one of the biggest losers in the entire series, and in some ways the razing of Prospero wasn't enough injury to him. Almost every single decision he makes is the wrong one, due to his own arrogance and inability to admit 'maybe I might not know best', and the one time he does do something sensible (i.e. throw himself into a hopeless battle to buy his sons time, although he'll die himself) he can't even follow through and do that right. The only one I feel sorry for is Ahriman, for having to spend so much time with him-terrible, terrible Primarch.

Horus-Ehhh. His daddy issues were convincing enough in Horus Rising, but in almost every appearance after that he seems to be juggling the idiot ball. I've a feeling the final battle will make me care again though.

Lorgar-poor, poor Lorgar. Much like Curze, the fact that he was right just makes his whole messed up situation worse, and his insistence to Corax that "but he lied...Father lied..." was just heartbreaking.

Vulkan-Night Lords are unashamedly my favourite Legion, but even I wouldn't want to be locked up in Curze's sex dungeon. I mainly feel sorry for the Sallie players who waited so long for some attention and then had to make do with the truly diabolical 'Vulkan Lives'.

Corax-Much like Vulkan, it's unfortunate that Corax's focus book was lackluster and changed so much of the fluff, because it made me like him a lot less than I could. I still do feel for him regarding the whol guilt over his mutants thing, although he did kind of bring it on himself.

Alpharius-Alpharius has a personality?

You sir are in my mind, please get out and have an exalt...

In fact quite a few of the Primarches seemed to be not much more than oversized apes, considering their lack of intellectual development. That's why it sometimes makes me chuckle when the authors describe the Primarches as godlike beings or pinnacles of evolution. The fiction about primarches is one of cavemen or medieval warlords with primal motives but romanticised with boltguns and cruise missiles instead of spears and catapults.

If you read any of the old Norse god saga's or about the greek gods it all looks familiar, they are all powerfull beings with the mental development of someone stuck in puberty, i have more sympathy for the under them like the tragic figures like Loken and Argel Tal (which i still hope returns as a demon prince) than the Primarchs.

Argel Tal was an impediment to the Great Work, why would they bring him back?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gabriel Santar wrote:
Hmmm.

Roboute-Nah, I like Robby but he almost seems to come off better from the Heresy. He loses a planet? Boo hoo, Calth for Monarchia seems a fair trade.

Monarchia was a single city, and most of the inhabitants were evacuated by the Ultras. Lorgar and Angron put at least a dozen worlds to the sword and Calth was on its way to becoming the hub of Mr. G's empire. But yes, as one of the few competent Primarchs, Guilleman doesn't need anyone's pity.

Still there was a moment in Know No Fear when I really felt bad for the Gee man: When the Word Bearers unleash their attack on Calth and Guilleman stands briefly paralyzed, maybe even afraid, as Lorgar's brutal, chaotic approach to warfare simply does not compute.

I'm tempted to say his entire worldview collapsed at that very moment. He was forcefully made aware that the universe is not a place of rational predictability. And still, unlike other Primarchs, he got his stuff together in a matter of minutes.

Not an Ultramarine fanboi here... but heck, maybe he should have been Warmaster...

Corax's story is pretty depressing. He was a pretty chill guy who didn't do anything to crazy. Then his whole legion get wiped out and he tries to speed up the process of training more astartes. This fails and he has to kill all of them.

That is pretty much like failing a 2+ save and then rolling a 1 on your re-roll attempt. I'd fly into the eye of terror too...

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
Still there was a moment in Know No Fear when I really felt bad for the Gee man: When the Word Bearers unleash their attack on Calth and Guilleman stands briefly paralyzed, maybe even afraid, as Lorgar's brutal, chaotic approach to warfare simply does not compute.

I'm tempted to say his entire worldview collapsed at that very moment. He was forcefully made aware that the universe is not a place of rational predictability. And still, unlike other Primarchs, he got his stuff together in a matter of minutes.

Not an Ultramarine fanboi here... but heck, maybe he should have been Warmaster...

I wouldn't say his world view collapsed, since it was by design mutable to adopt a practical from any theoretical. He was certainly taken aback as he computed this new therefore unforeseen and unimaginable scenario. If any of the loyalists had their world view collapse, it's Corax who cried like a bitch about it, but even he got his gak together in short order. Then there is Dorn, who is the primarch with Aspergers.