Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Fix the current rules rather than making them into MCs. They're substantially different things, they should have different rules. Just because the rules for it aren't great atm, doesn't mean they can't be fixed.

Honestly I would take dreads if they were the same as they are now but ~50 points cheaper with their option costs halved as well.
Although I think they would be easier to balance if they were made into MCs personally.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

I love big walking robots as well...but those kind of things already have a rule classification - walkers (or titans if you are going towards something Pacific Rim sized)

Nah.. I can't see how a Sentinel is comparable to a Wraithknight in terms of agility and dexterity. And I guess that is why a Sentinel a Walker (an inferior machine with inferior rules) and the Wraithknight is a Monstrous Creature (a better machine with better rules).

Do you know what the only difference is between how an MC moves and how a walker moves? Move through Cover, that's it. So give the Wraithknight the walker classification and Move through Cover and as far as dexterity and agility, they are equally represented in the rules.

Imo, if it has legs and a pilot (whether that is a "spirit", a corpse, or a regular flesh and blood trooper), it's a walker.

Asking for high Toughness and anti-poison rules sounds to me like: "I want all the benefits of being an MC but none of the disadvantages"

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

Do you know what the only difference is between how an MC moves and how a walker moves? Move through Cover, that's it. So give the Wraithknight the walker classification and Move through Cover and as far as dexterity and agility, they are equally represented in the rules.

Better agility and dexterity should mean much more than simple movement shenanigans. Examples are the lack of facings and real immobilization from damage.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

Imo, if it has legs and a pilot (whether that is a "spirit", a corpse, or a regular flesh and blood trooper), it's a walker.

Then what's the big deal with Monstrous Creatures? They have legs and they are "piloted" by a mind after all. So why they aren't Walkers?

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Asking for high Toughness and anti-poison rules sounds to me like: "I want all the benefits of being an MC but none of the disadvantages"

No, what we want is to stop these things from being useless and fix stuff that is caused by their profile and type.
Changing them to MC's seems to be the easiest fix.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Asking for high Toughness and anti-poison rules sounds to me like: "I want all the benefits of being an MC but none of the disadvantages"

What disadvantages to being an MC? They are no more effected by poison than bikers and the like.

I think we can all agree that dreads do need some kind of buff to make them at least comparable to MCs, and there is no way GW is likely to tone down the new MCs to match them any time soon.

Trying to match a walker to an MC in 6th ed is no easy challenge however, as they are by their nature handicapped by their vehicular nature.

However I would rather not see them be changed to match the current meta by having them changed to MCs as it just does not match the fluff or the model. It's a vehicle.

Best solution imo would be to change very little on the stats of the model, perhaps only adding an attack or two to make dreads a little more formidable in cc. Other than this, a large points reduction should cover the disparity between MCs.

Tired of mechanical things being MC's. If gw wants to make them op with statlines than go for it. But don't abuse the MC name by using it to make this stuff cheesy.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

I love big walking robots as well...but those kind of things already have a rule classification - walkers (or titans if you are going towards something Pacific Rim sized)

Nah.. I can't see how a Sentinel is comparable to a Wraithknight in terms of agility and dexterity. And I guess that is why a Sentinel a Walker (an inferior machine with inferior rules) and the Wraithknight is a Monstrous Creature (a better machine with better rules).

Do you know what the only difference is between how an MC moves and how a walker moves? Move through Cover, that's it. So give the Wraithknight the walker classification and Move through Cover and as far as dexterity and agility, they are equally represented in the rules.

Imo, if it has legs and a pilot (whether that is a "spirit", a corpse, or a regular flesh and blood trooper), it's a walker.

There's no classification for jump or jetpack walkers.

And Wraith units being monstrous creatures has had precedence stretching way before 6e was ever a thing.

And hell, Necron Spyders were also monstrous creatures for long before 6e.

It is not without precedence.

In any case, there are two, okay *three* reasons why monstrous creatures defeat Walkers every time.

First is that Walkers with saves are quite rare, while in terms of AV vs Toughness Walkers usually win out, Saves allow a Riptide to ignore Krak missile fire that would obliterate it's cost in Dreadnoughts.

Secondly is that while both have "wounds" in a sense, most monstrous creatures have more wounds than walkers have hull points, and walkers have a chance of instantly dying, losing combat ability, not being able to attack, not doing anything for the turn, or being unable to move ever again if something beats their AV well, while a monstrous creature just loses a single wound.

Third of course, is that Monstrous creatures have always been able to ignore armor saves no matter what and got a bonus vs vehicles. Last time it was ignore armor saves and an extra d6 vs monstrous creatures. Now it's AP2 at all times and the option to go up to S10 and divide your attacks by two. Walkers need special weapons to do the same and get no bonuses against monstrous creatures or other vehicles.

So that's why a Trygon will eat through many times it's points in Assault dedicated walkers without blinking while even the punchiest of walkers will find taking out non- close combat dedicated MCs like Tyrannofexes or Riptides a chore. Or why a shooty riptide or wraithknight will nearly always beat a shooty walker in a shootout.

The walker supposedly has the advantage of better resilience vs small arms fire (though getting a bolter wound to stick on a FNP riptide is so unlikely it may as well be impervious) and not having to worry about Poison, and again, saves kind of mitigate Poison, while Vehicles have to worry about a whole host of things like armorbane and are more vulnerable to low rate of fire high strength weapons (save for S10 if they're T5 and the very rare high strength instant death dealing attacks MCs don't have to worry about this).

I'm not sure how you'd get walkers to compete fairly without radically altering many units and rules.

 Krellnus wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Asking for high Toughness and anti-poison rules sounds to me like: "I want all the benefits of being an MC but none of the disadvantages"

What disadvantages to being an MC? They are no more effected by poison than bikers and the like.

Dreadnoughts aren't bikers, they're walkers.

 Kain wrote:

There's no classification for jump or jetpack walkers.

And Wraith units being monstrous creatures has had precedence stretching way before 6e was ever a thing.

And hell, Necron Spyders were also monstrous creatures for long before 6e.

It is not without precedence.

In any case, there are two, okay *three* reasons why monstrous creatures defeat Walkers every time.

First is that Walkers with saves are quite rare, while in terms of AV vs Toughness Walkers usually win out, Saves allow a Riptide to ignore Krak missile fire that would obliterate it's cost in Dreadnoughts.

Secondly is that while both have "wounds" in a sense, most monstrous creatures have more wounds than walkers have hull points, and walkers have a chance of instantly dying, losing combat ability, not being able to attack, not doing anything for the turn, or being unable to move ever again if something beats their AV well, while a monstrous creature just loses a single wound.

Third of course, is that Monstrous creatures have always been able to ignore armor saves no matter what and got a bonus vs vehicles. Last time it was ignore armor saves and an extra d6 vs monstrous creatures. Now it's AP2 at all times and the option to go up to S10 and divide your attacks by two. Walkers need special weapons to do the same and get no bonuses against monstrous creatures or other vehicles.

So that's why a Trygon will eat through many times it's points in Assault dedicated walkers without blinking while even the punchiest of walkers will find taking out non- close combat dedicated MCs like Tyrannofexes or Riptides a chore. Or why a shooty riptide or wraithknight will nearly always beat a shooty walker in a shootout.

The walker supposedly has the advantage of better resilience vs small arms fire (though getting a bolter wound to stick on a FNP riptide is so unlikely it may as well be impervious) and not having to worry about Poison, and again, saves kind of mitigate Poison, while Vehicles have to worry about a whole host of things like armorbane and are more vulnerable to low rate of fire high strength weapons (save for S10 if they're T5 and the very rare high strength instant death dealing attacks MCs don't have to worry about this).

I'm not sure how you'd get walkers to compete fairly without radically altering many units and rules.

There was no precedence for jump and jet MCs either until they made them. Nothing is stopping them from giving jump and jet pack rules to walkers.

Wraithlords have never sat well with me as MCs either and if they made spyders walkers, it would make sense to me.

No one is saying that walkers are equal to or better than MCs generally speaking. What I'm saying is from a balance viewpoint, that most MCs are almost twice the price of the dreads they are being compared to. They damn well should be better than your average walker. I'm simply addressing two points:

1) IMO, from a fluff standpoint, there should be a clear division between what should qualify as a walker and what should qualify as a MC. GW has totally ignored that distinction for the sake of selling expensive model kits kits. Rather than continue that practice, they should repair the mistakes that have been made and improve what are qualified as walkers either through special rules or points reductions.

2) If we just say f-it and throw away walkers in general to turn them all into MCs of comparable power, then there has to be an equivalent points increase. A 125-150 point dreadnought MC should not be anywhere near the same ballpark as a 250-275 point MC

This whole problem is caused by the biggest flaw in the 40K rules system: the totally different rules for vehicles and non-vehicles.

But as the rules are now, I think FW was on right track with Contemptors how to make viable walkers. To me lowering the point cost of current dreads wouldn't solve the issue; Space Marine Dreadnought are supposed to be mighty heroes of the past, and they should be individually formidable, making them affordable sentinels with an extra gun isn't good enough.

I'd suggest bumping all Armour Values, WS, BS and A by one, maybe even giving them refractor field for 5+ inv (could be an option) and some sort of inspiring rule (maybe re-rolling morale and pinning for nearby units like with company banner.) There is no need to have separate Ironclad, just give a big list of weapons, and allow all dreads to equip any weapon to either arm slot and take HK missiles on top of that.

 Crimson wrote:
This whole problem is caused by the biggest flaw in the 40K rules system: the totally different rules for vehicles and non-vehicles.

But as the rules are now, I think FW was on right track with Contemptors how to make viable walkers. To me lowering the point cost of current dreads wouldn't solve the issue; Space Marine Dreadnought are supposed to be mighty heroes of the past, and they should be individually formidable, making them affordable sentinels with an extra gun isn't good enough.

I'd suggest bumping all Armour Values, WS, BS and A by one, maybe even giving them refractor field for 5+ inv (could be an option) and some sort of inspiring rule (maybe re-rolling morale and pinning for nearby units like with company banner.) There is no need to have separate Ironclad, just give a big list of weapons, and allow all dreads to equip any weapon to either arm slot and take HK missiles on top of that.

The problem is that you don't want to go to far with this. At the moment they are mighty heroes of the past, and are individually formidable. You would need to be str 6 to even touch it, and it has str 10 when it has a cc weapon. However it is still just a guy in a metal box, which has less armour than a battle tank, so I wouldn't want to go over the top and uber buff them into attempting to be the next dreadknight.

Balance in 40k is all about the points. It is also the easiest thing to change in an attempt to make walkers more competitive. This should be the first thing to be altered to help walkers.
To make dreads more viable I wouldn't mind seeing a very low base cost dread, which has more weapon combinations than now. Add to this the option to purchase some special rules from the BRB (based on the life of the marine before he was entombed in the dread for some fluff) to allow players to tailor their dread for a specific role.

Why not give an armor save for walkers? They are more maneuverable than tanks so they can position themselves to deflect damage.

Armor save would make them better at cc and make them tougher against high str low ap fire (like deffguns and autocannos) while still being vulnerable to actual anti tank weapons.

Also maybe some MCs should be walkers like riptide and dreadknight.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

The problem is that you don't want to go to far with this. At the moment they are mighty heroes of the past, and are individually formidable.

This topic wouldn't exist if this was the case. Currently, the Dreadnoughts are decent to mop up mooks or destroy slow vehicles, but these are hardly the feats of a mighty hero or the signs of being formidable. They should be able to go toe-to-toe with Daemon Princes with a good chance to win the fight (like in the Black Templar comics) and burn through basic infantry like jet fuel.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Balance in 40k is all about the points.

No, balance is all about unit effectiveness. Nobody will take your cheap unit if it is garbage. Cheap garbage is still garbage.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

The problem is that you don't want to go to far with this. At the moment they are mighty heroes of the past, and are individually formidable.

This topic wouldn't exist if this was the case. Currently, the Dreadnoughts are decent to mop up mooks or destroy slow vehicles, but these are hardly the feats of a mighty hero or the signs of being formidable. They should be able to go toe-to-toe with Daemon Princes with a good chance to win the fight (like in the Black Templar comics) and burn through basic infantry like jet fuel.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Balance in 40k is all about the points.

No, balance is all about unit effectiveness. Nobody will take your cheap unit if it is garbage. Cheap garbage is still garbage.

Fluff and gameplay must reach a divide somewhere. A space marine in the fluff is worth hundreds of guardsmen, whereas on the table its closer to 2 or 3.
Having a 100 point dread beating up a 200+ point daemon shouldn't happen. Whether it is in a comic or not.

Dreadnoughts should be powerful, sure. But I would hate to see them as the next dreadknight because people wanted to fulfill their fluff fantasies.

As to points, You are right and wrong. Sure a unit must be effective in some form or another to be considered. But it is the points that balance the against other choices.
To better put it, determining a units strength comes down to its effectiveness, against its points value. If you can work this out in your mind, then you can determine which choice you think would be best for you. You can't consider either without the other.

As changing the stats or rules for walkers is a bigger task, I think changing points for walkers would be the best solution until the mess between walkers and MCs can be sorted out.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Balance in 40k is all about the points.

No, balance is all about unit effectiveness. Nobody will take your cheap unit if it is garbage. Cheap garbage is still garbage.

No, balance is all about a unit's effectiveness at a given points value. People would take pyrovores all day long if they were 5 points each, and they wouldn't touch Necron wraiths with a 10 foot pole if they were 200 points each.

Anyone have a clip of Davian Thule gutting an entire horde with his abilities like so much chaff (gorey, gorey chaff)?

That's what dreads should be like rather than things my Carnifexes pop open like tin cans.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Balance in 40k is all about the points.

No, balance is all about unit effectiveness. Nobody will take your cheap unit if it is garbage. Cheap garbage is still garbage.

No, balance is all about a unit's effectiveness at a given points value. People would take pyrovores all day long if they were 5 points each, and they wouldn't touch Necron wraiths with a 10 foot pole if they were 200 points each.

Except Pyrovores would still suck because Zoanthropes exist in the same slot and can fulfil a role that a heavy flamer stapled onto a biovore just can't. Buffing/debuffing and anti-heavy tank.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
You don't have to compare them to Nids. Daemons also have a ton of MCs and are a 6th edition dex. Look at their stats/price.

Those are the two armies that really should be fielding MCs. The vast majority of other MCs in the game have no business being such. Let's not make the problem worse by adding more.

I think most rational people will agree that dreads could use some help. Personally, I think you give them a strong points reduction, but leave them alone otherwise. I don't have an issue with dreads being fragile if I can pack more of them into a list (or have more points available for the units they are supporting).

Well, I must admit I have a real problem with dreadnoughts being fragile. Walkers yes, Dreadnoughts are supposed to be extremely difficult to destroy, thus the name. Part of the problem is the very limited armor value system. With a range of 10 to 14 there just isn't much room to play around, and throw in all the weapons out there with extra armor penetration rules and armored vechiles are mostly cheesecloth.

I liked the idea of glancing shots removing a hull point. But as I have seen it more and more from the tyranid perspective, I think its too much. Maybe if glancing shots gave a crew shaken result instead.

But vehicles (including walkers) should be able to fire their weapons at full BS most of the time, not just when sitting still.

Just out of curiosity, which walker/mc (in terms of fluff and your own imagination) should a space marine dread be able to defeat 1 vs 1?
I'm not talking about existing gameplay here, I just want to see where people would place the dread. Would help explain their choices.

Wraithlord
Greater Daemon
Daemon Prince
Carnifex
Hive Tyrant
Ripide
Dreadknight
Killa Kan

Now I'm sure this will split opinions quite badly.
For me, the only unit I imagine the dread being better than is the killa Kan. Sure it will squish the battlesuit in cc....but it has to catch it first.
A dreadnought to me is a hero of the imperium....but he is still pretty modest when compared to a lot of the MCs and advanced walkers out there.

 Kain wrote:

Except Pyrovores would still suck because Zoanthropes exist in the same slot and can fulfil a role that a heavy flamer stapled onto a biovore just can't. Buffing/debuffing and anti-heavy tank.

I do fine without using Zoanthropes, and if I could flood the opponent's backfield with 9 heavy flamers and 3 objective denying faux-MCs for 165 points instead, I'd make that trade any day of the week.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Just out of curiosity, which walker/mc (in terms of fluff and your own imagination) should a space marine dread be able to defeat 1 vs 1?
I'm not talking about existing gameplay here, I just want to see where people would place the dread. Would help explain their choices.

Wraithlord
Greater Daemon
Daemon Prince
Carnifex
Hive Tyrant
Riptide
Dreadknight
Killa Kan

They should curb-stomp Killa Kans, go against Riptides/Deff Dreads with a ~80% chance to win, go against Daemon Princes and Carnifexes with a ~50% chance to win, have ~30-40% chance to beat Wraithlords/Dreadknights/Hive Tyrants but little (~10%) chance to defeat a Greater Daemon.

And they should cost much more for the increased power output. A 200+ points powerhouse of awe-inspiring destruction would be a perfect Dreadnought. And Helbrutes should be on the same level too.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Except Pyrovores would still suck because Zoanthropes exist in the same slot and can fulfil a role that a heavy flamer stapled onto a biovore just can't. Buffing/debuffing and anti-heavy tank.

I do fine without using Zoanthropes, and if I could flood the opponent's backfield with 9 heavy flamers and 3 objective denying faux-MCs for 165 points instead, I'd make that trade any day of the week.

The sheer amount of power spam a psychic choir nid list can do is one of the few options in the book that can make people cross. As for backfield template spam, Chaos can do that better.

And ultimately, Zoanthropes, Tervis, and Tyrants turn meh units into scary units by spreading the buffing love. Think these charging gargoyles aren't much? Oh look, now they have warp speed and get 1d3 more attacks *each* at a better initiative that autowound on a six to hit. That's pretty incredible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Just out of curiosity, which walker/mc (in terms of fluff and your own imagination) should a space marine dread be able to defeat 1 vs 1?
I'm not talking about existing gameplay here, I just want to see where people would place the dread. Would help explain their choices.

Wraithlord
Greater Daemon
Daemon Prince
Carnifex
Hive Tyrant
Riptide
Dreadknight
Killa Kan

They should curb-stomp Killa Kans, go against Riptides/Deff Dreads with a ~80% chance to win, go against Daemon Princes and Carnifexes with a ~50% chance to win, have ~30-40% chance to beat Wraithlords/Dreadknights/Hive Tyrants but little (~10%) chance to defeat a Greater Daemon.

And they should cost much more for the increased power output. A 200+ points powerhouse of awe-inspiring destruction would be a perfect Dreadnought. And Helbrutes should be on the same level too.

Emperor help that Dread if the Carnifex has crushing claws though, or if the Tyrant has warp speed and decides to smash.

 Kain wrote:

And ultimately, Zoanthropes, Tervis, and Tyrants turn meh units into scary units by spreading the buffing love. Think these charging gargoyles aren't much? Oh look, now they have warp speed and get 1d3 more attacks *each* at a better initiative that autowound on a six to hit. That's pretty incredible.

Hehe... Warp Speed only affects the psyker. You can't buff other units with it .


And I don't say that decreasing the points cost of a unit can't "fix" it. But thing is, that it is a disgustingly lazy solution. i wouldn't even call it a "fix" as it fixes nothing just let you buy sh*t on a premium price.

 Kain wrote:

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Except Pyrovores would still suck because Zoanthropes exist in the same slot and can fulfil a role that a heavy flamer stapled onto a biovore just can't. Buffing/debuffing and anti-heavy tank.

I do fine without using Zoanthropes, and if I could flood the opponent's backfield with 9 heavy flamers and 3 objective denying faux-MCs for 165 points instead, I'd make that trade any day of the week.

The sheer amount of power spam a psychic choir nid list can do is one of the few options in the book that can make people cross. As for backfield template spam, Chaos can do that better.

And ultimately, Zoanthropes, Tervis, and Tyrants turn meh units into scary units by spreading the buffing love. Think these charging gargoyles aren't much? Oh look, now they have warp speed and get 1d3 more attacks *each* at a better initiative that autowound on a six to hit. That's pretty incredible.

I am well aware of how psychic choir lists function, and as I said, I do fine without zoanthropes...and you aren't giving those gargoyles warp speed as it only affects the caster.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Kain wrote:

And ultimately, Zoanthropes, Tervis, and Tyrants turn meh units into scary units by spreading the buffing love. Think these charging gargoyles aren't much? Oh look, now they have warp speed and get 1d3 more attacks *each* at a better initiative that autowound on a six to hit. That's pretty incredible.

Hehe... Warp Speed only affects the psyker. You can't buff other units with it .


And I don't say that decreasing the points cost of a unit can't "fix" it. But thing is, that it is a disgustingly lazy solution. i wouldn't even call it a "fix" as it fixes nothing just let you buy sh*t on a premium price.

Are you sure?

Huh...you're right.

Well endurance is still nice to pass around.

Put it on a Stonecrusher carnifex for maximum trolling.

I agree with the general statement the dreadnoughts are unfortunately weak in 6th (along with all vehicles).

Some of the fix could go on all vehicles (say increase all HP by two across the board and the possibility of more common built in saving throws)

Combat walkers such as dreadnoughts and hellbrutes need a few more things, I'd love to see them get Rampage for dealing with hordes and tarpits as well as d3 Hammer of Wrath attacks like MCs.

Pricing would require playtesting after these alterations but I think they would 'feel right' at least.

If they stayed vehicles how about one of the following rules:

Legacy of the Chapter: give walkers -2 to all damage table results. They gain +1 cover from friendly units.

Or

All successful armour penetrations rolls must be rerolled.

Or

They all gain IWND and IH get it at +1

I think a lot of people here have condemned Walkers perhaps too quickly. In my experience, Walkers are actually quite effective. Iron Hands in particular have some options that can make Dreadnoughts very strong.