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 PredaKhaine wrote:

 Quarterdime wrote:


It can happen for Night Lords to become berserkers. But it doesn't. That's the point.

Thats where we disagree - it can/does and has.

The only legions I'd be surprised to find berzerkers worshipping khorne in are the death guard, the thousand sons and the emporers children. Any other legion is fair game.

I agree with PredaKhaine's argument - the legions were split into warbands, and the warbands do whatever they want. Some Night Lord warbands have remained true to Curze's ideology, and refuse to worship the dark gods for anything other than useful or helpful mutations. Others, however (like the one in The Lord Of The Night) have been truly tainted by chaos without really realising what has happened to them. No matter how stalwart you may be, given a period of time, chaos will taint you. Most loyal Imperial soldiers, for example, have never been in the warp for longer than a few months or years. The Night Lords have been in the warp for 10,000 years. Some were bound to become corrupted, regardless of how strong and loyal to Curze they were.

"See how the mighty are fallen" Curze says...

this is not sarcasm or critisicm, but I recommend you read Lord Of The Night. The description of the Raptors towards the end sounds a lot like the description of a Khorne worshipper. Berserkers could easily come to fruition from that.

P.S - thanks for that Black Library thing PredaKhaine - I must now order my own copy of the book....

G.A

 PredaKhaine wrote:

 Quarterdime wrote:


It can happen for Night Lords to become berserkers. But it doesn't. That's the point.

Thats where we disagree - it can/does and has.

...People buying the models and painting them up that way doesn't count. You didn't bring up anything to prove it. Please. Just admit that you don't care about this and let's both move on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Thats where we disagree - it can/does and has.

The only legions I'd be surprised to find berzerkers worshipping khorne in are the death guard, the thousand sons and the emporers children. Any other legion is fair game.

I agree with PredaKhaine's argument - the legions were split into warbands, and the warbands do whatever they want. Some Night Lord warbands have remained true to Curze's ideology, and refuse to worship the dark gods for anything other than useful or helpful mutations. Others, however (like the one in The Lord Of The Night) have been truly tainted by chaos without really realising what has happened to them. No matter how stalwart you may be, given a period of time, chaos will taint you. Most loyal Imperial soldiers, for example, have never been in the warp for longer than a few months or years. The Night Lords have been in the warp for 10,000 years. Some were bound to become corrupted, regardless of how strong and loyal to Curze they were.

"See how the mighty are fallen" Curze says...

this is not sarcasm or critisicm, but I recommend you read Lord Of The Night. The description of the Raptors towards the end sounds a lot like the description of a Khorne worshipper. Berserkers could easily come to fruition from that.

P.S - thanks for that Black Library thing PredaKhaine - I must now order my own copy of the book....

G.A

The raptors in the Night Lords Trilogy sound like that, too. But I need to ask. Did those raptors wear khorne iconography? Did they openly wear their devotion? Or did they stay in midnight clad, not to incur their brothers' wrath? Understand the point I'm making. As long as the majority of the warband hasn't fallen into this, then none of them will be allowed to. I'm going to read this book, because before I corrected it, people were saying the same thing about Uzas, Cyrion, and the Raptors in the Night Lords Trilogy. So hopefully you can understand me when I say that this doesn't sound very different.

 Quarterdime wrote:

 PredaKhaine wrote:

 Quarterdime wrote:


It can happen for Night Lords to become berserkers. But it doesn't. That's the point.

Thats where we disagree - it can/does and has.

...People buying the models and painting them up that way doesn't count. You didn't bring up anything to prove it. Please. Just admit that you don't care about this and let's both move on.

Ok, let me explain where I'm coming from.

I much prefer how you see the Night Lords, thats how I think they should be, but I don't think they exist like that in 40k.

Thats why I went to games day and bought both Betrayal and Massacre Heresy books - I'm making a 30k Night Lords Legion force as its much closer to what I want to play than the warbands now imo.

The Night Lords can't execute any marine who worships a god - they'd run out of marines rather quickly - what happens if you give a night lord reason to kill someone he doesn't like?
From a fluff perspective that would end up like the salem witch trials.

"You survived too many bolter rounds in that last battle, you're worshipping Nurgle!"
Blam!
"You got too angry while killing him, you're worshipping khorne!"
Blam!
"You enjoyed that! Slaanesh worshipper!"
Blam!
"you planned all of this! Tzeentch!"
Blam!

And so forth...

Two authors have written full length novels about the night lords - ADB and Simon Spurrier. If you're going to ignore what you haven't read, thats half of the authors ruled out...
The Night Lords trilogy is my favourite set of books in 40k, I really enjoyed them. Its also written from Talos's idealist perspective - the three novels are about how he begins to influence the 10th company and mould them to his vision. He's taken control of tenth claw, he provides a new navigator, he gets them a load of new servitors and other night lords begin to buy into his vision (like Mercution).
This is to the bemusement of some of the other characters, like Xarl. Xarl complains he doesn't remember the Night Lords in the way Talos does - in that Talos's vision is heavily idealised.
In the meantime the warband is led by the Exalted (a possessed marine - incidentally, he still has the best death in the whole of 40k ) and even in Talos's own 1st claw, 2 of the marines are worshipping deities.

In Lord Of The Night, Zho Sahaal see's the Night Lords in the same way as Talos - but he's heavily disappointed after having been away for 10,000 years to find that his legion has dissolved into warbands and his is led by Kreig Acerbus - a deamon prince.

I've copied this from Lexicanum - its pretty accurate.

Lexicanum wrote:
"Acerbus claimed that Night Haunter foresaw Sahaal's disappearance and allowed it to happen, so that his "worthy witterings" would not obscure his vision.
Acerbus also claimed that Night Haunter wished for his legion to sow fear in his name and eat the terror of the Imperium, which conflicts with Sahaal's claim that Curze used fear as a tool, but it was never his ultimate goal.
Acerbus, Talos and Zso Sahaal all give conflicting accounts of Night Haunter and his legacy and intentions, however.

Raptors are pretty much turned a blind eye to - none of them are really 'human' anymore. Every depiction I can think of has them that way , for example Lucoryphus, the raptors in Night Fall, and the codex.
Warp Talons are even further removed and they are agreed by most people to be the most 'Night Lords' unit in the codex.

Chaos Space Marine Codex wrote:
Most of their number look down on the faithful as naive fools

Thats the only reference I can find as to how many worship gods - most don't. Which means most don't and the rest of the Night Lords worship Chaos Gods
Night Lords serve in warbands - straight Night Lords war bands and others. They use the chaos gods to get what they want - thats why Uzas is worshipping Khorne, even while he serves in 1st Claw.
In a warband led by a Khornate Demon Prince, it would be entirely possible for Night Lords to become Khorne Berzerkers. ANY berzerker who worships khorne fits that description - they wouldn't become World Eaters, but they *are*khorne berzerkers.
If a reason was needed to put khorne helmets on them, we know they scavenge armour, in a khorne warband, I doubt they'd be able to replace broken helmets with much else...
In the fluff, there are two different visions of the Night Lords - Talos and Sahaal share the idealised version of their legion - Acerbus and the Exalted see it the other way.
Sahaal and Talos are both shown by the two different authors that their view of the Night Lords is idealised and the truth in the 'modern' universe is that the Night Lords are much closer in functionality to generic chaos warbands.
Also, neither has spent that much 'time' in the warp in comparision to a lot of chaos characters - Talos has been there for 100 years (wibbly warpy timey wimey) and Sahaal was in a coma due to his sus-an membrane and wasn't concious for his duration in the warp. The Night Lords who've been in the warp for 10,000 years (Acerbus and co) are heavily corrupted. The Night Lords who've been in the warp for 100 years (Exalted's warband) are showing signs of corruption, although some have fallen further than others - eg the Exalted.
That would seem to show a link between time spent in the warp and how corrupted they get. In 40k, they been using the warp as a base for 10,000 years.
Thats why I don't think the Night Lords as I'd like them exist in 40k - and why I think Night Lords could easily end up worshipping Khorne and become Berzerkers.

TLDR - I prefer your view of the NL to mine, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I see Berzerkers as fitting in to 40k quite easily, you don't. We'll both live

While I believe PredaKhaines correct, that Khorne Bezerkers could easily fit into certain bands of Night Lords while following fluff after so many warbands went their own ways, but a post of mine at the beginning seems to have been missed xD

Zotac1992 wrote:

...But alas I didn't intend to defend their fluff lol. I wanted to use Khorne Bezerkers in tabletop, with my nightlords army, and this was the result ...

Even though i do think they work just fine with the fluff aha.

I'm not going to not use units that I want to use on the table just because it wouldn't match there lore if its perfectly acceptable in the dex. That's all lol, but this was quite interesting to read

Zotac1992 wrote:
While I believe PredaKhaines correct, that Khorne Bezerkers could easily fit into certain bands of Night Lords while following fluff after so many warbands went their own ways, but a post of mine at the beginning seems to have been missed xD

Zotac1992 wrote:

...But alas I didn't intend to defend their fluff lol. I wanted to use Khorne Bezerkers in tabletop, with my nightlords army, and this was the result ...

Even though i do think they work just fine with the fluff aha.

I'm not going to not use units that I want to use on the table just because it wouldn't match there lore if its perfectly acceptable in the dex. That's all lol, but this was quite interesting to read

that is true, but isn't playing with your favourite units while being able to tie them in with the fluff a win win, no? Tying stuff into background is always an added bonus.

General Annoyance wrote:


that is true, but isn't playing with your favourite units while being able to tie them in with the fluff a win win, no? Tying stuff into background is always an added bonus.

It is, which I attempt to do but some things are more difficult than others! Just look at the dispute i began here

I was kinda hoping upon visiting this thread I would see winged helmeted dudesmens duel wielding chain axes with khorne symbols so I'm kinda disappoint but still very nice paint job

Zotac1992 wrote:

General Annoyance wrote:


that is true, but isn't playing with your favourite units while being able to tie them in with the fluff a win win, no? Tying stuff into background is always an added bonus.

It is, which I attempt to do but some things are more difficult than others! Just look at the dispute i began here

Come, now. Most people who play 40k could care less about these minute details. They play the game because A: Other people play it, B: It looks cool, or C: It's fun as a game. And I don't think it should be an insult to say that you were all about B & C with these berserkers, which I forgot to mention are painted rather well.

I still love the fluff, but yes you're exactly right - I play because I love to play it, and to have the models I like and thank you, much appreciated!

Will be posting a nice Talos Valcoran original model soon which was from WFM-Steve

 PredaKhaine wrote:

Ok, let me explain where I'm coming from.

I much prefer how you see the Night Lords, thats how I think they should be, but I don't think they exist like that in 40k.

Thats why I went to games day and bought both Betrayal and Massacre Heresy books - I'm making a 30k Night Lords Legion force as its much closer to what I want to play than the warbands now imo.

The Night Lords can't execute any marine who worships a god - they'd run out of marines rather quickly - what happens if you give a night lord reason to kill someone he doesn't like?
From a fluff perspective that would end up like the salem witch trials.

"You survived too many bolter rounds in that last battle, you're worshipping Nurgle!"
Blam!
"You got too angry while killing him, you're worshipping khorne!"
Blam!
"You enjoyed that! Slaanesh worshipper!"
Blam!
"you planned all of this! Tzeentch!"
Blam!

And so forth...

Two authors have written full length novels about the night lords - ADB and Simon Spurrier. If you're going to ignore what you haven't read, thats half of the authors ruled out...
The Night Lords trilogy is my favourite set of books in 40k, I really enjoyed them. Its also written from Talos's idealist perspective - the three novels are about how he begins to influence the 10th company and mould them to his vision. He's taken control of tenth claw, he provides a new navigator, he gets them a load of new servitors and other night lords begin to buy into his vision (like Mercution).
This is to the bemusement of some of the other characters, like Xarl. Xarl complains he doesn't remember the Night Lords in the way Talos does - in that Talos's vision is heavily idealised.
In the meantime the warband is led by the Exalted (a possessed marine - incidentally, he still has the best death in the whole of 40k ) and even in Talos's own 1st claw, 2 of the marines are worshipping deities.

In Lord Of The Night, Zho Sahaal see's the Night Lords in the same way as Talos - but he's heavily disappointed after having been away for 10,000 years to find that his legion has dissolved into warbands and his is led by Kreig Acerbus - a deamon prince.

I've copied this from Lexicanum - its pretty accurate.

Lexicanum wrote:
"Acerbus claimed that Night Haunter foresaw Sahaal's disappearance and allowed it to happen, so that his "worthy witterings" would not obscure his vision.
Acerbus also claimed that Night Haunter wished for his legion to sow fear in his name and eat the terror of the Imperium, which conflicts with Sahaal's claim that Curze used fear as a tool, but it was never his ultimate goal.
Acerbus, Talos and Zso Sahaal all give conflicting accounts of Night Haunter and his legacy and intentions, however.

Raptors are pretty much turned a blind eye to - none of them are really 'human' anymore. Every depiction I can think of has them that way , for example Lucoryphus, the raptors in Night Fall, and the codex.
Warp Talons are even further removed and they are agreed by most people to be the most 'Night Lords' unit in the codex.

Chaos Space Marine Codex wrote:
Most of their number look down on the faithful as naive fools

Thats the only reference I can find as to how many worship gods - most don't. Which means most don't and the rest of the Night Lords worship Chaos Gods
Night Lords serve in warbands - straight Night Lords war bands and others. They use the chaos gods to get what they want - thats why Uzas is worshipping Khorne, even while he serves in 1st Claw.
In a warband led by a Khornate Demon Prince, it would be entirely possible for Night Lords to become Khorne Berzerkers. ANY berzerker who worships khorne fits that description - they wouldn't become World Eaters, but they *are*khorne berzerkers.
If a reason was needed to put khorne helmets on them, we know they scavenge armour, in a khorne warband, I doubt they'd be able to replace broken helmets with much else...
In the fluff, there are two different visions of the Night Lords - Talos and Sahaal share the idealised version of their legion - Acerbus and the Exalted see it the other way.
Sahaal and Talos are both shown by the two different authors that their view of the Night Lords is idealised and the truth in the 'modern' universe is that the Night Lords are much closer in functionality to generic chaos warbands.
Also, neither has spent that much 'time' in the warp in comparision to a lot of chaos characters - Talos has been there for 100 years (wibbly warpy timey wimey) and Sahaal was in a coma due to his sus-an membrane and wasn't concious for his duration in the warp. The Night Lords who've been in the warp for 10,000 years (Acerbus and co) are heavily corrupted. The Night Lords who've been in the warp for 100 years (Exalted's warband) are showing signs of corruption, although some have fallen further than others - eg the Exalted.
That would seem to show a link between time spent in the warp and how corrupted they get. In 40k, they been using the warp as a base for 10,000 years.
Thats why I don't think the Night Lords as I'd like them exist in 40k - and why I think Night Lords could easily end up worshipping Khorne and become Berzerkers.

TLDR - I prefer your view of the NL to mine, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I see Berzerkers as fitting in to 40k quite easily, you don't. We'll both live

I agree that we'll both live.. Just put it in perspective. We're talking about the set rules of a mostly-established fiction.

You're falling back to the same arguments. I guess I didn't make myself clear enough.

Leaders can worship gods, and lower members can succumb to mutation and light worship and be tolerated. Now let's talk about the unique case of Acerbus. All Night Lords, even the ones that worship chaos, understand that that's not what they're about. They know shame. Uzas never went full Berserker. And I doubt even Acerbus himself was promoted to daemonhood through anything more than shared interests. It's a culture. And Khorne Berserkers are an open challenge to it. So here's the best way I can put it:

If there are Khorne Berserkers, it means Acerbus', or any as of yet unknown warband, have essentially denounced their entire identity as Night Lords and are now just another renegade chapter. And even if they'd still call themselves Night Lords, it'd just make them renegades with an identity crisis. But again, I don't think that's the case, I doubt there'd be that level of contention even within Acerbus' warband. I'm not saying no contention! I'm saying Berserkers symbolize the absolute height of this contention, and I don't see enough evidence to suggest that it's reached the boiling point. Even in Acerbus' warband. And you do. And if I were to guess why that is, I'd say that you think that a Daemon Prince would function as that symbol the same way. Well it doesn't. If you want to discuss why, then let me know. I'm enjoying this little foray we're having.

Also, as a footnote, even if it does end up I'm wrong about this somehow, and the exceptional legion(s) exist, it still goes against the spirit of the Night Lords. Maybe next we'll find out the Word Bearers have an atheist warband.

I'll try to keep this brief as the op has said he didn't really want fluff arguments...
But
Yes, I went to the same arguments - It was so I could back them up with quotes and expain my views.
The idea that the Night Lords keep each other from worshipping the chaos gods is daft - Again, falling back to Uzas (who does go full berzerker on occasion, like when he rampages through talos's ship, killing everyone he meets from serfs to other Night lords) Talos doesn't kill him, he just paints his hands red. Even after he is directly responsible for the deaths of an entire claw.
No taking ol' Uzas out behind the woodshed..
Everyone in charge of a Night Lords warband is powered by chaos (bar Decimus, right at the end of the trilogy)
There is no reason night lords wouldn't worship chaos in modern 40 as they use it to gain a corporeal advantage (incidentally, the Night Lords trilogy is set before the black crusade from a warband who've only spent 100 years in the warp - when we see the modern warband in Lord of the Night, they are very heavily corrupted. But hey, you haven't read that so it doesn't count right? )
You made yourself clear - you have your view of the Night Lords. You haven't backed it up. Please show me where in the fluff a night lord has killed another night lord for worshipping chaos (and Talos killing of Uzas doesn't count - he had to choose betweeen Cyrion and Uzas and he saved the one he liked)
Even loyalist marines can become berzerkers and they'd have more of a reason not to than the Night Lords

Word Bearers having an atheist warband? thats about as likely as Night Lords killing each other for worshipping the chaos gods.

Anyway, I'm done - the OP didn't want fluff, so this is my last response in this thread. Please feel free to start a new thread if you have any actual proof that you're right.