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Vraksian Defender wrote:

Can I ask if you have read the Cain books - pretty much everyone is very human in them - they live and love, fight and die, argue and laugh? They have been brought up in a different world - much akin to our own history - but fundamentally they are the same as us.

Read one. I was'nt saying he was mentally dead, more that a lot Imperials appear that way. Like why are we mostly killing our own, and why does everybody on the planet have to die? I don't care how ruthless you are I don't see how you cannot ask yourself those questions unless you live in total fear or total zealotry.

horrific things they do

How are the actions they do any worse than what the Imperials do to their own? The ends justify the means? Wasn't that what Curze did?

The (doomed?) love story in their book is about two people trying to stay human even though any remnant of this sickens the Night Lords - esp Talos - as it reminds them of what they have lost / thrown away. Any hint of redemption for them or their slaves must be crushed......

Ok this must be a total perspective difference. I thought Talos wanted to give Septemus and Octavia a fresh start(its hinted in his prophecies that their hunted down by Inquisition so I guess it did'nt work) because he was grateful for loyalty to him.

I don't think you read my reply - there is a difference as to why they do things - many Imperials do it because they think they have to (and may indeed be right given the universe they live in) - the majorirty of the Night Lords do it because they want to or because they have been doing it for so long that its natural - plus many don't want to consider another path -even if it was possible.

You do recall Talos on several occassion threatening to kill Septumus for his relationship with Octavia, half killing him and and forbidding any further contact - yeah he finally lets them go when pretty much all his companions are dead - but as you say - he thinks they are doomed anyway. You recall the Night Lords killing the child born on the ship to crush the hopes of the ships crew............Plus Octavia is not there because she wants to be - she was abducted, the rest of the crew slaughtered or enslaved and forced to serve as Navigator or die. They make their own ship as hellish as possible for the crew and themselves..........

Curze was insane and he knew it - he tried and pretty much succeeded to form the mental state of his Legion into his own twisted belief - now you can sort of argue the Imperium itself is somewhat like this - its a twisted view of the emperors wishes.

So exactly which Cain novel did you read - as they def don't kill everyone on planets - they try and fight the enemy, protect the civilian population where possible and if not evacuate them..............Exterminatus is used as a last resort in all fluff................and even Inquisitors need to have a good reason why they do so. They operate in the grey area - the Night Lords are evil.............

many Imperials do it because they think they have to

Lorgar thought he had to start a rebellion to save the human species and that the Imperium was killing humanity.

Talos gave Septimus a beating because he endangered the lives of everyone on the ship, i'd imagine the Imperials would do the same thing.

he tried and pretty much succeeded to form the mental state of his Legion into his own twisted belief - now you can sort of argue the Imperium itself is somewhat like this - its a twisted view of the emperors wishes.

No he failed and even his own Legion said he was the only Primarch to hate his own Legion.

Oh and I wasn't so much talking about Cain I was more thinking about all the times when they kill an entire Guard Regiment in the name of secrecy or when they murdered the people of Armageddon because they became aware of the truth of the Imperium's flawed founding, not even so much because of Chaos but because of a Traitor Primarch.

That's whats evil about the Imperium, not the murdering or oppression because everyone in 40k does that, its that it demands that its people be enslaved to a lie. I didn't mean to get off into a philosophical tangent but that's why you can't have romance or comedy in society that's cross between nineteen eighty four and every religious war ever fought.

It's 40K.

Were those citizens heretics? Blasphemers? Cavorting with the Xeno? Having truck with the Ruinous Powers?

If the answer to any one of those questions was "yes", then being hacked to death by chainswords is getting off lightly. They should thank the God-Emperor he allowed them to die so swiftly.

Workers in rebellion? Heretics.
Planet trading with the Tau? Heretics.
Liberal reformer of Administratum tax code? Heretic.
Planetary Governor who lets the standards for testing and collection of psykers slip? Heretic.
Free-thinking philosopher who considers that maybe Chaos isn't all bad? Heretic and Blasphemer. Probably also a sorcerer and a daemonurgist.

All of the above are well-deserving of the sort of righteous violence only the various Adepta and Ordos of the Imperium can visit upon them.

Were going a little bit off topic and its somewhat my fault. Really i'm making a case for having more fleshed out mortal followers of Chaos who can have somewhat normal internactions with each other. Now your going to say what this is 40k I realize this, but the way I see it you need light to have dark.

The Gaunt's Ghosts series does feature some people who are members of Chaos, but not soldiers. They are, basically, the Administratum of worlds existing solely within the Eye of Terror, sort of the Bureaucracy of Chaos.

I quite enjoyed Andrej's humour and even felt feels from the little love interest in the story.

Along with that, you have to remember that to some extent 40k was established on heavy satire. Over time it has become an odd mix of attempting to be serious but still reminding everyone that it's still a parody with chock full grimdak humor.

In terms of why regiments are killed for secrecy and the sorts... Well in terms of chaos daemon prince primarchs. There are several reasons. Imagine if the citizens found out that there were daemonic primarchs that could level planets with ease. Imagine the pandemonium, terror even from such a revelation. Along with that, remember that chaos isn't a natural force. It is entropy. The greatest of men get corrupted into decadence simply by hoping for a better tommorow. To wish for the ability to know when somebody is lying incurs the ears of Tzeentch as he ponders if he might "bless" you with his gift. Chaos plants seeds. Seeds that gestalt until they whither away the resistence of the human mind. And then they break.

Imagine the pandemonium, terror even from such a revelation.

No its would just destroy the faith they had in a lie. The Imperium is built on lies, once the lie was the Imperial truth, then it became the Imperial creed. Truth destroys lies. Last time people found out the truth their was the pilgrimage and the whole Heresy thing.

But Chaos isn't truth, either. It's simply lies twisted to sound true. According to Chaos, all physical reality is a lie, and the Immaterium is the only truth, a sea of endless change "where form abideth not."

Back to the subject.

Well, mainly, I think your subject is flawed and your premise weak. You're criticizing the people within the setting for something that is the fault of the writers.

There's plenty of romance, humor, love, joy, and all of the other positive things of life in the Imperium... but we just don't want to read about them. That's not the focus of the table-top game, nor the subject matter that the various Black Library novels focus on. For the published materials "there is only war", whether that be an IG novel, an SM bolter-porn novel, or a cloak-and-dagger, noir detective Inquisition story.

Though, especially in the latter case, there's plenty of all the things you claim are missing. Things rarely turn out well for the characters involved, though, but these are people in very dangerous occupations who don't really have a retirement option.

Vraksian Defender wrote:
Were going a little bit off topic and its somewhat my fault. Really i'm making a case for having more fleshed out mortal followers of Chaos who can have somewhat normal internactions with each other. Now your going to say what this is 40k I realize this, but the way I see it you need light to have dark.

In that case, I highly recommend reading some of the Black Crusade books as they do a far better job than anything the codices could ever do on portraying more balanced human followers of chaos and giving legitimate reasons for turning to chaos.

Theirs some pretty good fan fiction, but games workshop is'nt selling the lost and the damned so few novels feature them.

Vraksian Defender wrote:

many Imperials do it because they think they have to

Lorgar thought he had to start a rebellion to save the human species and that the Imperium was killing humanity.

Talos gave Septimus a beating because he endangered the lives of everyone on the ship, i'd imagine the Imperials would do the same thing.

he tried and pretty much succeeded to form the mental state of his Legion into his own twisted belief - now you can sort of argue the Imperium itself is somewhat like this - its a twisted view of the emperors wishes.

No he failed and even his own Legion said he was the only Primarch to hate his own Legion.

Oh and I wasn't so much talking about Cain I was more thinking about all the times when they kill an entire Guard Regiment in the name of secrecy or when they murdered the people of Armageddon because they became aware of the truth of the Imperium's flawed founding, not even so much because of Chaos but because of a Traitor Primarch.

That's whats evil about the Imperium, not the murdering or oppression because everyone in 40k does that, its that it demands that its people be enslaved to a lie. I didn't mean to get off into a philosophical tangent but that's why you can't have romance or comedy in society that's cross between nineteen eighty four and every religious war ever fought.

Missed these replies

Is that what Logar thought?

I still think Talos beat Septimus because of the fact the two were falling on love - the threat to the ship was incidental - see my earlier thoughts on he and his Chapters self hatred - hence I do think the NL Primarch succeeded in his goal.

The Armegeddon incident is where the Inquisiton are paranoid that the exposure to Choas will have corrupted some and hence endagered many more - even here - the Space Wolves stand up to one of the most powerful elements of the Imperium becuase they think its right......

I didn't mean to get off into a philosophical tangent but that's why you can't have romance or comedy in society that's cross between nineteen eighty four and every religious war ever fought

Now this is just not right - the novels have this - its there:

Amberely and Cain are a sweet couple:

"Thank you", she said stretching, so I wandered across and massaged sme of the tension from her shoulders as the servitor set out dishes and cultery on the dinning table. She smiled as the covers came off. "Ackenberry sorbet. One of my favourites"That hadn't been hard to remember, so I smiled in return. "You did say you'd live on the stuff if you could the last time you ordered it" So I did." The smile widened as the main course came into view. "Whats that?" "Ambull steak", I said, "I think they owe me that much." Cains narrative continues for several more paragrapghs, but since it only covers personal matters of no interest to anyone else I've chosen to end this extract right here.

Of course she holds the fate of worlds in her hands and he is a Commissar but they do they best to be both human and do the right thing where they can.....................and even manage to enjoy life.....

There is also the doomed-from-the-start relationship between Gregor Eisenhorn and Alizebeth Bequin which, though tragic for obvious reasons, holds true throughout the series and actually drives the beginning of the third trilogy.

Lots of both successful and tragic romance in the Ghosts series...........

There was some romantic stuff in the Inquisitor series

Maybe they should do some romantic IG novels.
New Commisar Johnson with his long arm of Justice!

Is that what Logar thought?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pretty much

I still think Talos beat Septimus because of the fact the two were falling on love - the threat to the ship was incidental - see my earlier thoughts on he and his Chapters self hatred - hence I do think the NL Primarch succeeded in his goal.

Your really grasping at straws with this whole thing about the Night Lords wanting to break the spirit of the crew. Talos even said he didn't want to crew to become suicidal husk. Oh before when you said they killed the void born that was the Blood Angels who did that, the void borns father was killed by Cyrion though Talos blamed Uzas and thought about killing him for it.

Vraksian Defender wrote:
One idea I had is the whole heresy thing with the Imperials. If you know that you may be required to kill your friend or lover than why get close to them.

There is power in such betrayal.

There is