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 Blacksails wrote:
Shaken:
Snap fire weapons > PotMS > Fire one weapon at full BS > Fire 4 weapons at BS 1 > snap fire remainder weapons > Fire remainder weapons @BS1

I don't see anything in the rules or in your explanation that would restrict that from happening. It certainly fits with what I suspect to be the RAI for the rule, otherwise what purpose does PotMS have other than allowing you to fire at a different target.

Except in this example you would fire the PotMS shot at the full BS of 1 which is what the vehicle BS is set to due to snap fire from a shaken result.

It allows you to take a vehicle like a storm raven and fire; 2 hurrican bolters, 1 AC, and 1 missile at full BS and a MM at a different target at full BS. Or if you look at the land raider which this rule was originally created for it allows 3 weapons at full BS when you move.

Alright, but using your logic that PotMS can't function as I've explained due to the way it interacts with the vehicle shooting rules, then how do most of the USR's function in the first place?

Vector dancer permits an additional 90 degree turn, whereas the flyer movement explicitly states in bold that they may only make a single 90 degree turn, instead of the two vector dancer allows.

My entire contention is your interpretation of how the PotMS USR interacts with vehicle shooting.

My argument is that PotMS modifies but in now way invalidates the normal vehicle shooting rules. The same way relentless modifies how a heavy weapon is treated, or how vector dancer modifies flyer movement, or how interceptor modifies how a unit can make an out of turn shooting attack at full BS. Basically, USRs modify existing rules, and I fail to see how PotMS wouldn't function exactly as how its worded.

Ordnance means all other weapons are fired as snap shots. PotMS allows you to fire one more weapon than normally permitted at full BS. Therefore a vehicle with PotMS can shoot one ordnance and one other weapon at full BS, while the rest are treated as snap shots. I don't see how this in any way contradicts any other rules.

Your current interpretation ignores a full half of the rule.

You are not doing what the rule says you are adding extra interpretation onto the rule. Just go through the shooting process and fire an extra weapon at a different target at the same BS that you shoot the other "full BS" weapons at.

Your interpretation means that snap fire never does anything on a vehicle as the vehicle fires 4 weapons at "full BS". Full BS is the BS the model has when you shoot the weapon. If shaken/firing at flyer/also shooting 1 ordnance then that BS is 1. This would be similar to any modifier, either one that improves BS or reduces it.

Flyers also depend on the snap fire mechanism. So it is a valid comparison.

No, my interpretation is that a special rule allows you to modify the existing rules. The rule PotMS explicitly states you may shoot an additional than normally permitted at full BS. I don't understand how you continue to interpret that as anything other than what it states.

If a model moving at cruising speed may normally fire only snap shots, PotMS would allow you to fire one weapon at full BS. A model moving at combat speed could fire one weapon at full BS, but PotMS would bring that up to two weapons.

This is doing what the rules say, as USRs are rules that modify existing core rules. PotMS does just that, and I'm following the normal vehicle rules plus the specific permission from PotMS to fire an additional weapon at full BS.

This is where we roll a D6 and move on. Either way the you could at best fire 1 missile and 1 weapon at full BS at at worst 1 missile at full BS. Either way shooting the missiles is a hopeless waste of the vehicle's weapons.

I'm going to jump into this rules debate and ask something completely different... it is mentioned in the FW PDF that it can be taken in 40k as a Relic. Any idea which book this could potentially be in? It is hinted that multiple HH units will get this rule, I'm just praying for that sweet Sicaran battletank...

 alienvalentine wrote:

 Shandara wrote:
It also has BS4 and Strafing Run so is unlikely to miss at all. It kinda beats the Avenger Strike Fighter in a million ways.

Yeah, but the Avenger is like 70 points cheaper than Fire Raptor. You get what you pay for really. The Fire Raptor is to the Avenger what the AC-130 is to a A-10 Thunderbolt.

Haha depends on what the AC-130 is equiped with. Can be more devistating.

 jifel wrote:
I'm going to jump into this rules debate and ask something completely different... it is mentioned in the FW PDF that it can be taken in 40k as a Relic. Any idea which book this could potentially be in? It is hinted that multiple HH units will get this rule, I'm just praying for that sweet Sicaran battletank...

FW has said (somewhere, possibly at Games Day) that the intention is they will release a book for 40k with all the cool HH units, most of which will likely have the Relic rule. We don't know when this book will come, or what units it will have, or if it will only be HH relic units, but we know something is coming with those rules for normal 40k games.

 jifel wrote:
I'm going to jump into this rules debate and ask something completely different... it is mentioned in the FW PDF that it can be taken in 40k as a Relic. Any idea which book this could potentially be in? It is hinted that multiple HH units will get this rule, I'm just praying for that sweet Sicaran battletank...

Totally with you! I really couldn't care less about the Fire Raptor or Storm Eagle. They both seem expensive and mediocre. Now the Sicaran Battle Tank, that thing looks like it can dish out some hurt.

 ansacs wrote:
This is where we roll a D6 and move on. Either way the you could at best fire 1 missile and 1 weapon at full BS at at worst 1 missile at full BS. Either way shooting the missiles is a hopeless waste of the vehicle's weapons.

We do have this post: https://www.facebook.com/ForgeWorldUK/posts/744683898882226?comment_id=91517756&offset=0&total_comments=1

"Forge World Hi Ben, the turrets are fired sufficiently independently, so the extra shots aren’t made as snap fire."

Cool, now you just need to get your opponent to agree (hopefully reasonable people should but you never know).

I would be thrilled for PotMS and the turrent to fire at full BS when you fire a missile. Makes this awesome model a nice flyer too.

I don't care I play BA, so I don't have missiles.
But I am glad that we now know how they intended for it to work.

The way I read the "tax" part is that you can take one normally without any restrictions, but if you want FURTHER relic vehicles, then you need the specific HQ.

Am I missing something here?

No, seems you are right.
"One Relic of the Armoury may be taken in the army’s primary detachment, within the usual provisions of the army list.
Further Relic vehicles may be chosen, in which case the detachment must also include a Keeper of Relics purchased as an HQ choice."

And I am happy for that!
My BA-lists are bad enough without them forcing me to take a Reclusiarch

Kangodo wrote:

 ansacs wrote:
This is where we roll a D6 and move on. Either way the you could at best fire 1 missile and 1 weapon at full BS at at worst 1 missile at full BS. Either way shooting the missiles is a hopeless waste of the vehicle's weapons.

We do have this post: https://www.facebook.com/ForgeWorldUK/posts/744683898882226?comment_id=91517756&offset=0&total_comments=1

"Forge World Hi Ben, the turrets are fired sufficiently independently, so the extra shots aren’t made as snap fire."

Nice find! If only it were so easy to answer other YMDC questions

Makes a HUGE difference in the viability of this flyer

It's how FW works But in most cases these are not official rulings.
This reply does learn us what they exactly mean with the rules of this flyer.

Kangodo wrote:
It's how FW works But in most cases these are not official rulings.
This reply does learn us what they exactly mean with the rules of this flyer.

While I agree with their ruling, I'd really, really, really like to see it clarified when published fully or some sort of FAQ/Errata. It certainly makes it significantly more viable, especially for Chaos and HH lists with the Reaper batteries.

 Blacksails wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
It's how FW works But in most cases these are not official rulings.
This reply does learn us what they exactly mean with the rules of this flyer.

While I agree with their ruling, I'd really, really, really like to see it clarified when published fully or some sort of FAQ/Errata. It certainly makes it significantly more viable, especially for Chaos and HH lists with the Reaper batteries.

Agreed, it actually makes the Hellstrikes usable.

Seriously. While the 2 TL Autocannons aren't bad, it's nowhere near as glorious as the Reaper batteries

Still would seriously consider taking this in a loyalist list. What's the dakka per turn on it? 7 Str6 AP3, 4 TL Str7 AP4, and ze missile? not too shabby.

What are the fire-arcs on each weapon?

I'm just not sure how much more effective one would compare to 2x Talon's. It does have a large amount of dice (Quad HB or Quad AC's).

It can also engage multiple targets (like, 3-4). IF it can fire those str8 Ap2 missiles and IF it has decent firing arcs, its a pretty hefty gunboat.

Just release it already, I want it!!! Rules be damned (its a cool model, only reason I would buy it).

That or just save money and convert my stormeagle to have those gun turrets and avenger cannons.

Sadly, unless they add extra rules to it, its nearly good but worthless;

If it chooses to fire at flyers, it can choose to have skyfire. If it has skyfire, all weapons must have skyfire, thus snap shots vs ground targets. Its handicapped by its plethora of weaponry, which you ideally want to be engaging multiple units. Another reason why the hull turkey is viable in this regard.

Razerous wrote:
Sadly, unless they add extra rules to it, its nearly good but worthless;

If it chooses to fire at flyers, it can choose to have skyfire. If it has skyfire, all weapons must have skyfire, thus snap shots vs ground targets. Its handicapped by its plethora of weaponry, which you ideally want to be engaging multiple units. Another reason why the hull turkey is viable in this regard.

Well in this case the independent turrets would be exempt. But regardless, as I've said the Fire Raptor is much more suited to killing infantry, so it's a waste shooting it at most flyers anyway.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Razerous wrote:
Sadly, unless they add extra rules to it, its nearly good but worthless;

If it chooses to fire at flyers, it can choose to have skyfire. If it has skyfire, all weapons must have skyfire, thus snap shots vs ground targets. Its handicapped by its plethora of weaponry, which you ideally want to be engaging multiple units. Another reason why the hull turkey is viable in this regard.

Well in this case the independent turrets would be exempt. But regardless, as I've said the Fire Raptor is much more suited to killing infantry, so it's a waste shooting it at most flyers anyway.

Why?

Razerous wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Razerous wrote:
Sadly, unless they add extra rules to it, its nearly good but worthless;

If it chooses to fire at flyers, it can choose to have skyfire. If it has skyfire, all weapons must have skyfire, thus snap shots vs ground targets. Its handicapped by its plethora of weaponry, which you ideally want to be engaging multiple units. Another reason why the hull turkey is viable in this regard.

Well in this case the independent turrets would be exempt. But regardless, as I've said the Fire Raptor is much more suited to killing infantry, so it's a waste shooting it at most flyers anyway.

Why?

Earlier someone posted a ruling by Forge World that the turrets aren't affected by the Hellstrike Missiles' ordnance making weapons snap fire, so I'd assume that they would also be able to use skyfire or not should they choose to do so (it would seem that the RAI is that the turreted guns aren't automatically affected by effects on the hull weapons). As for the infantry comment, let's look at the weaponry: it has 12 twin-linked S5 AP4 shots (you can switch these out for 4 S7 AP4 shots, but that's not nearly as good... would you expect to kill a vehicle with 1 autocannon?), 7 twin-linked S6 AP3 shots and 1 (useful) S8 AP3 missile per turn. All of these can fire at different targets. Now unless you're shooting at AV10 or maybe 11, 19 out of 20 shots that this thing can put out per turn are ill-suited to destroying a vehicle. It seems to me that these shots would be much better put to use gunning down infantry units. The fact that they're twin-linked at BS4 with 2+ or 3+ to wound against most targets means that it's probably going to be pumping out about 12-15 wounds per turn.

You can swap the 12 twin linked st5 shots for 8 str 7 twin linked shots.

Its swapping Heavy bolter batteries for Reaper Autocannon batteries.

Now I want one, having read the rules.

Whats the point of the BA missiles? as far as I can see, you can only affect deepstiking reserves on turn 3 and most of your reserves should be in by then.

 PredaKhaine wrote:
You can swap the 12 twin linked st5 shots for 8 str 7 twin linked shots.

Its swapping Heavy bolter batteries for Reaper Autocannon batteries.

Now I want one, having read the rules.

But only if you're CSM or Legion. Not for 40k loyalists... :( normal TL AC for them.

I was responding specifically to the beneath - personally, I play chaos and am starting a legion so I know what I'll be doing

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
, let's look at the weaponry: it has 12 twin-linked S5 AP4 shots (you can switch these out for 4 S7 AP4 shots, but that's not nearly as good... would you expect to kill a vehicle with 1 autocannon?),

 PredaKhaine wrote:
I was responding specifically to the beneath - personally, I play chaos and am starting a legion so I know what I'll be doing

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
, let's look at the weaponry: it has 12 twin-linked S5 AP4 shots (you can switch these out for 4 S7 AP4 shots, but that's not nearly as good... would you expect to kill a vehicle with 1 autocannon?),

Ahh ok well the Reaper Batteries for Chaos are certainly a pretty good option. I was meaning more for the loyalists.

Whether or not this FAQ sticks (it being an experimental unit and all), it has nothing whatsoever to do with the Skyfire & flyer interaction.

Thus it is a 200pt boat that can't kill flyers/FMC whilst using its key selling point; split fire (not the USR!)