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Aforementioned six fliers, with comms relay, skyhammers for the talons, 3x 5man tac squads with single heavy weapon of choice (probably missiles), and Shied Eternal/Artificer Chapter Master is doable at 1500.

At 3k-4k this doubles to six each of Ravens and Talons.

Overkill? Yes. But once the turkeys are dead, what exactly is consistently threatening your six fliers? An aegis quad? Best case, it kills two talons or one raven. Then gets smashed to bits.

This is also achieved on three re-rollable reserve rolls, courtesy of Talon's escort rule and comms.

Hang on, you all seem to be talking as though once the ravens have taken the turkeys down they will then just be zooming around enjoying the scenery... they can (and WILL) kill other things as well!

AstraVlad wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:

They also only cost 140 points, with the upg lascannon that is.

At the same cost you can have Vendetta with 3 TL LC and 2 HBs. And it is AV12 with 3HP.

GoliothOnline wrote:

I have had much better luck with them, and my opponents have had MUCH better luck running them against me and my Drakes..

Why didn't you just vector striked them to death? With D3+1 S7 hits you almost garanteed to have at least 1 pen.

1) I thought we were talking about Marines

2) Having to face 3 drakes in 2k lists, 3 talons, on my field tore them apart... Things don't always move in straight lines you know... You actually have range on the space chickens lmao and if you position yourself in range of the Lascannon, he isn't vector striking you... Sometimes people forget how far 48" is I guess...

Martel732 wrote:
It's not guaranteed. It's a 1-((.666)^D3+1) chance.

Lets make it simple: D3+1 = average of 3 hits. With S7 vs AV11 it is 1/6 glance and 2/6 (5+) pens from the hit or 3/6 glance and 6/6 pens (I call it "almost guaranteed" ) total. Estimated HP loss is 3/6 + 3/6 = 1.5 HP. And if you use Daemonforge, Talon will definitely be a toast.

Martel732 wrote:

Also, talons have a tendency to fly behind the drakes in order to shoot them in AV 10 with assault cannons. Also, clever marine players can put their talons in inconvenient places.

Clever Chaos player will not allow his opponent to to get to the rearside of it's Drakes .

If using escort you actually REDUCE the average number of flyers coming on, not increase them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
When considering one raven and one talon:
Chances of both coming from reserve if rolled seperately: 2/3 x 2/3 (as AND means multiply the probabilities). Which equals 4/9.
Chances of both coming from reserves if rolled together equals 2/3. We must make the denominators the same to compare fractions. So 2/3 is the same as 6/9 (whatever you do to the denominator you do to the numerator, in this case multiply by 3). Now we can compare 4/9 and 6/9. As they have the same denominator we can now ignore the denominator (think of this as the unit, if it was meters you could ignore the meters), so we are comparing 4 to 6. 6 is 2 more than 4. 2 is 50% of 4. So therefore 6 is 150% of 4. Take off 100% to find out how much more likely it is. Hence when rolling for both together you are 50% more likely to get both together compared to rolling both seperately. 
Chances of neither showing if rolling both seperately: 1/3 x 1/3 which equals 1/9. Chances of neither showing up if rolled together equals 1/3. Must make the denominators the same to compare. 1/3 becomes 3/9 (multiply numerator and denominator by 3) We can now compare 1/9 and 3/9. Ignore the denominator, compare 1 and 3. 3 is 2 more than 1. 2 is 200% of 1 therefore 3 is 300% of 1. Take 100% off to find out how much more likely it is. Hence the chance of neither turning up when rolling both together is 200% more likely than the chance of neither turning up when rolling them both together. 
So you gain a 50% Improvement on the chance for both but also suffer from 200% chance increase of neither showing up.

GoliothOnline wrote:


1) I thought we were talking about Marines

2) Having to face 3 drakes in 2k lists, 3 talons, on my field tore them apart... Things don't always move in straight lines you know... You actually have range on the space chickens lmao and if you position yourself in range of the Lascannon, he isn't vector striking you... Sometimes people forget how far 48" is I guess...

1) In 6th we have allies .
2) ONE LC do not have a big chance to destroy Helldrake. It will have 3/4 + 3/16 = 15/16 hits and 1/2 chance for pen = 15/32 pens and then you will have you 5++ lowering it to 15/32 * 4/6 = 60/192 = 5/16 pens. And from that 5/16 pens if you roll 1-2 on damage table you will still be able to vector strike that little bastard. So there is only a 5/16*2/3 = 10/48 = 5/24 chance of a single Talon to do something really useful against Helldrake with it's lascannon. I wouldn't bet on it .

Poly Ranger wrote:
If using escort you actually REDUCE the average number of flyers coming on, not increase them.

2/3 chance to bring something in from reserve.

(2/3) * (6) = 4 + (2/3) * (2) = 5.333 -> 5.

(2/3) * (3) = 2 -> each result is two fliers -> 4
+ (2/3) * (1) = 2.6667 -> 3 -> again, two each -> 6.

This includes the comms relay re-roll.

AstraVlad wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:


1) I thought we were talking about Marines

2) Having to face 3 drakes in 2k lists, 3 talons, on my field tore them apart... Things don't always move in straight lines you know... You actually have range on the space chickens lmao and if you position yourself in range of the Lascannon, he isn't vector striking you... Sometimes people forget how far 48" is I guess...

1) In 6th we have allies .
2) ONE LC do not have a big chance to destroy Helldrake. It will have 3/4 + 3/16 = 15/16 hits and 1/2 chance for pen = 15/32 pens and then you will have you 5++ lowering it to 15/32 * 4/6 = 60/192 = 5/16 pens. And from that 5/16 pens if you roll 1-2 on damage table you will still be able to vector strike that little bastard. So there is only a 5/16*2/3 = 10/48 = 5/24 chance of a single Talon to do something really useful against Helldrake. I wouldn't bet on it .

Lol so now we're talking allies?

While we're at it might as well take some FMCs from Daemons eh

I can see where your numbers work out, but honestly, I've never had that kinda of bad luck..

I usually average a dead turky per turn when having to shoot all 3 talons at them 1.. and once one falls, you simply move and shoot at the next unlucky dinner morsel

 obsidiankatana wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
If using escort you actually REDUCE the average number of flyers coming on, not increase them.

2/3 chance to bring something in from reserve.

(2/3) * (6) = 4 + (2/3) * (2) = 5.333 -> 5.

(2/3) * (3) = 2 -> each result is two fliers -> 4
+ (2/3) * (1) = 2.6667 -> 3 -> again, two each -> 6.

This includes the comms relay re-roll.

Yes you increase the chance of a pair coming on, but you dramatically increase the chance of neither of the pair coming on! See the maths above. Ive been doing probabilities with a class today... as their teacher.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I will include the working including comms relay later.

AstraVlad wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's not guaranteed. It's a 1-((.666)^D3+1) chance.

Lets make it simple: D3+1 = average of 3 hits. With S7 vs AV11 it is 1/6 glance and 2/6 (5+) pens from the hit or 3/6 glance and 6/6 pens (I call it "almost guaranteed" ) total. Estimated HP loss is 3/6 + 3/6 = 1.5 HP. And if you use Daemonforge, Talon will definitely be a toast.

Martel732 wrote:

Also, talons have a tendency to fly behind the drakes in order to shoot them in AV 10 with assault cannons. Also, clever marine players can put their talons in inconvenient places.

Clever Chaos player will not allow his opponent to to get to the rearside of it's Drakes .

I already showed the math. Quit simplifying it and making incorrect deduction. Helldrakes often don't have many choices where to move beause of range.

Martel732 wrote:

I already showed the math. Quit simplifying it and making incorrect deduction. Helldrakes often don't have many choices where to move beause of range.

My math is correct... but have a simpler form then yours .

And yes, range is a problem, but AV11 and 2 HP is a bigger problem in my eyes. Talons are too easy to glance to death with almost any weapon in 40k, and are very easy to destroy with S7+ weapons. They are not reliable at all.

Chances of both coming from reserve if rolled seperately: 2/3 x 2/3 (as AND means multiply the probabilities). Which equals 4/9. Add the chance of both failing and getting a reroll which is (1/3 x 2/3)^2 which equals 4/81, add the chance of the raven failing and the talon succeeding and the raven then rerolling, which is, 1/3 x 2/3 x 2/3 which equals 4/27 then add the chance of the raven succeeding and the talon failing but getting its reroll, which is 2/3 x 1/3 x 2/3 which equals 4/27. So we need to add 4/9, 4/81, 4/27 and 4/27. So 36/81 + 4/81 + 12/81 + 12/81 equals 64/81 chance of both showing up.
Chances of both coming from reserves if rolled together equals 2/3, add the reroll which is 1/3 x 2/3 which is 2/9. 2/3 + 2/9 is 6/9 + 2/9 which equals 8/9.
 We must make the denominators the same to compare fractions. So 8/9 is the same as 64/81 (whatever you do to the denominator you do to the numerator, in this case multiply by 9). Now we can compare 64/81 and 64/81. As they have the same denominator we can now ignore the denominator (think of this as the unit, if it was meters you could ignore the meters), so we are comparing 64 to 64. Both give the same chance of both showing up.

Chances of neither showing if rolling both seperately: 1/3 x 1/3 x 1/3 x 1/3 which equals 1/81. 
Chances of neither showing up if rolled together equals 1/3 x 1/3 which equals 1/9. 
Must make the denominators the same to compare. 1/9 becomes 9/81 (multiply numerator and denominator by 9) We can now compare 9/81 and 1/81. Ignore the denominator, compare 9 and 1. 9 is 8 more than 1. 8 is 800% of 1 therefore 9 is 900% of 1. Take 100% off to find out how much more likely it is. Hence the chance of neither turning up when rolling both together is 800% more likely than the chance of neither turning up when rolling them both together. So you gain no Improvement on the chance for both but suffer from 800% chance increase of neither showing up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So with comms its a no brainer unless trying to saturate the air to reduce the effectiveness of interceptor. Even then, if running 6 you are more likely to saturate the air if you roll seperately.

AstraVlad wrote:
And yes, range is a problem, but AV11 and 2 HP is a bigger problem in my eyes. Talons are too easy to glance to death with almost any weapon in 40k, and are very easy to destroy with S7+ weapons. They are not reliable at all.

What makes talons good at killing helldrakes is the fact their assault cannon is turrent mounted. Therefore they can fly over the helldrake and shoot it in the AV10 rear.

An AC shooting AV10 is much better than a LC shooting AV12.

I personally just make sure i have an invunerable save or a 2+ armor save tanking the baleflamer in my squads, and ignore the damn things.


Worse comes to worse i shoot em with grav guns. only need 1 six and they become locked velocity and almost useless.

Poly Ranger wrote:
So 8/9 is the same as 64/81

You might want to double check your arithmetic....

Running DA vs Chaos you really should have no worries at all if you use Deathwing and inner circle. I have seen hundreds of 1s rerolled on my chaos.

One effective flexible option used against me was ADL with quad gun, plus a devastator squad of 4 ML and a sorcerer to give them all twin linked. The guy also had another flyer to hunt flyers.

I would assume GW puts out newer models to best deal with previous models so you buy more new models. Allying space marines AA would do you best point for point.

 Barksdale wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
So 8/9 is the same as 64/81

You might want to double check your arithmetic....

64/81 is the same as 8/9^2, while 8/9 is equal to 72/81....

 raiden wrote:
so, as a Blood angels and Dark angels player, how should I deal with them? usually as DA I just ignore them and have my terminators kills most of the ground troops. any other thoughts? I really need help for my BA

You get flyers of your own. A stormtalon is cheap, though not as cheap as the vendetta, which you could very well ally in. The Stormraven is also a good AA flyer simply because of the missiles and potential upgrades... TL las and TL Melta come to mind. However, there are other options:

1. Ally in Tau commander with two Missile pods and velocity trackers/early warning override. Better yet, if you know you can get the commander closer to the center of the board before the drake comes in, throw two fusion blasters on him instead.

2. Ally in Tau Broadsides with the high-yield missile pods.

3. ADL with quad-gun.

4. Ally in illic nightspear and throw him on an icarus lascannon. BS9 won't (usually) miss, the problem lies with the one shot. With the drakes invuln save plus IWND, if you don't kill it right away it has a very good chance of not dying at all.

Ahhh bugger. Well spotted! Was tired and rushed whilst cooking. I sincerely apologise!
So we need to compare 72/81 with 64/81. So 72 compared to 64. 72 is 12.5% bigger than 64.

So again if you roll both together with the reroll from comms, you increase your chances of both coming in by 12.5% but also increase the chance of neither coming in by 800%. Still far more efficient to bring them in seperately!

Thank you for pointing that out barksdale. Even us maths teachers make obvious errors when rushing. But on here I can't just claim i was trying to catch you out :-p!