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Are we exchanging for Jaghatai and Dorn or are they extras that turned up at the last moment?

Well if they both turned up before hand, you could expect some other Primarchs to turn up. Kurze, Alpharius/ Omegon. We know now how good Kurze is at at multiple primarch opponents. Personally i think Vulkan would stomp Russ, One on one or legion on legion. Crazy or not.

The wolves were more or less a shattered legion after Prospero and the alpha legion had pinned the wolfs in a kennel. Dont they have a tendency to go all wulfenish when surrounded by corruption anyway. So if they hit Terra i see them losing it and doing as much damage to both loyalists and traitors. Could be why they were the delaying factor with the dark angels.

The dark angels might have made a difference, but them both getting there would have reeked of sorcerous warp transit, and we know how the emp deals with that. Besides i think Kurze will still be on their ship, probably running a merry dance around Jonson and Russ. So he would end up on Terra. The dark angels, well they were mostly intact. So maybe the Lion went to get Russ. Because he was the best shot at taking Sanguinius down, if he didnt renounce the regency or die.

So really, I think that.
Wolves turning up would mean indiscriminate mayhem. Not as much control as the blood angels and too susceptible to the flesh change. Though there were probably a few loyalists that were drained of their vitae in a bastion somewhere.

The dark angels, hmmm I can see them being useful but that would change their whole back ground. Lets say half the legion killed on Terra. So theyre quarter strength now, being generous. They return home, get smashed by the other half of the legion.

You can already see how the survivors of Istvaan treat those who werent there. Imagine those that were on Terra at the time.

Rambled on for to long

I've read through about half of the responses so far, and I have to say that I think there is a huge part of the "game" (irony not withstanding) that is being over looked, and I'd like to start with a quote straight out of the Chaos Space Marines Codex.

...Thirteen times shall the Traitor King go forth.
In the End Times the iron fortress shall be cast down.
It's walls breached and its Gate forced open.
Those that dwell beyond shall spill through it.

-

The air shall burn and the ground shall melt.
The Daemon shall lie down with the Machine.
Brother shall slay Brother with Fire and Sword.
And the sky-wound shall pour its malice forth.

-

The Eye shall stare unblinking at its prize.
And the Traitor King shall cross the bridge of stars.
He shal return to finish the Warmonger's red work
Upon holy soil shall the fate of Man be decided.

-The Liber Malefact


Understand this; that for beyond the span of both Primarchs and Emperor, the Chaos Gods have ruled and pushed the fates of men towards their intended goals. No one elses. Not Horus', not the Emperors. No ones save the conspiracies of Tzeentch, Khorne, Nurgle and Slaanesh.

While one could speculate a hundred other alternatives for things like Calth and the Dorn perhaps being stalled indefinitely by Perturabo, one thing must be absolutely clear: What happened on Terra could have happened no other way, no matter what circumstance you consider, because, simply put, the Battle for Terra was not one conspired by the Warmaster Horus himself. It was an idea given to Horus by the Chaos Gods, as much as any Primarch would give orders to a pawn. This brings to light an even more startling revelation:

The Chaos Gods have NO respect for the Primarchs, what-so-ever. In fact, in many ways, they respect the Captains of the Primarchs, like Ahriman and Typhus, more than they do the Daemon Primarchs themselves.

It's shown in the Liber Malefact: Horus is a "Warmonger" and Abbadon is "The Traitor King?"

Horus had to fight the Emperor in order for BOTH of them to die in appeasement of the Chaos Gods, so that Abbadon COULD rip the Corpse-Lord from his Golden Throne.

In real space, this is all happening over a span of 10,000 x 10,000 years and on. In the Warp, this is a conspiracy of the present. An immeasurable span for any Primarch or Terran Lord to even comprehend with a fraction of clarity. Yet the Chaos Gods experience this in real time, all the time.

What is happening the 40K universe is Pre-Ordained. All of it. Ahriman taking charge of the Thousand Sons. Magnus' pitiful behavior in the warp. The languishing of Fulgrim within his own body. How Horus responds to the Daemon Primarch of Fulgrim after he presents Ferrus Mannus' head after the Drop Site Massacre.

ALL OF IT is pre-ordained to the goals of the Chaos Gods and NONE ELSE.

And think about it: If they hadn't done all they had to literally tear the pride and honor of the Space Marine Legions, their Primarchs and the Emperor himself (thus leading to the bathwash versions of the Astartes as mentioned before by another), could Terra have truly fallen?

I'm only through Fulgrim in the Horus Heresy series, and already I can see that the Great Game has washed over to the universe in a way that not even the Emperor could defend.


All are pawns in the Eyes of the Ruinous Powers. The effigies of "God" called Primarch and Emperor are but fleeting ideologies of the foolish, for it is the Warp which truly holds dominion. If not in the last 10,000 years, than in the next or the next after that or after that. The Warp is Eternal, and so the only outcome is either Endless War which no mortal force can wage, or the usurpation of Real Space to the Whims of the True Lords of Creation.

So say'eth the Liber Malefact and the whimsy of the Chaos Gods themselves. They know only the Great Game while the Imperium of Man fights for survival.

Edit: I was talking this over with my GF a while ago, and am still coming up with points that I think have been left out. One more quick one though, since it's at the front of my thoughts right now: Someone mentioned Dorns strategic-ness with Sanguin's martial ability as being well enough to overwhelm the Traitor Legions. We forget that Horus was THE strategic mastermind, greater than all others. It is why he was given the title of Warmaster. So what you're stacking up is Horus strategy > Dorns and Angrons martial prowess > Sanguinius. As I said before though, this battle could not have ended any differently for the Chaos Gods demanded it. Ever second that was stalled from Loyalist Legions, planned. Every wound struck, accounted for. The only thing that wasn't a part of Horus' plan, which had he not become a traitor he would have kept his prescience for, was his own Death which had been conspired against him by the Chaos Gods themselves.

I'd go so far as to argue that even the desecration of Horus' dead body and the bastardized cloning of his gene seed was all part of the Great Game to bring Abbadon to Power with the Heart needed to End the Imperium. All went according to plan, and it was reality that was the victim. Both Chaos Marine and Loyalist have been played like a fiddle.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Double Post for separation of points and importance: There is one more thing I felt I should be added separately, particularly in regards to future development from the point I put forward.

If we were to advance the story in a meaningful way that put, lets say another 10,000 years between incidents. Let's say Warhammer 50k now: I see the only way for the story to continue is for the Imperium of Man to fall, much like the Eldar Civilization fell. Perhaps not to the birth of another Warp God and all that, but with the extermination of the "central home" of the Imperium, rending all of the remaining human elements in the universe to essentially be cut lose and truly on their own. I think this would add a TREMENDOUS amount of depth to the already phenomenal series.

Ex: Terra falls and the Seat of Mans power is ripped from under Humanity. Yet there are still planets like those of the Space Wolves or Cadia, etc. etc. etc. that find themselves cut of and isolated, left to defend themselves in unique and independent ways. Granted, this shifts the power from the "Go(HA)od Guys" back towards the "Bad Guys," but I've always found the best hero stories to be told when the "go(HA)od guys" are completely under the heal of odds against them.

So while Terra is destined to fall and the Emperor as good as dead, Humanity still has a chance for survival, expansion and the creation of a whole new identity, perhaps an actual "go(HA)od guy" persona rather than this moral ambiguous, do anything to preserve the peace that has come out of the Inquisition, the Ordo Malleus and all of their many facets.

While it seems highly unlikely that we'll ever actually see the end of the 40k series, I hold out hope that there is a new Dark Age of Strife soon to hit real space in a way that Terra's "Dark Age" would be looked at like a blip on the radar.

That's a great post about the idea that all of this was predestined by the Chaos gods, certainly puts a different spin on things. I'm not sure I entirely agree, though, that the Chaos Gods are warp entities of that kind of power. I know that sounds like nonsense, but I'll try to explain.

I don't think Gods in 40k work in the same way they would anywhere else, simply because there are several factions who all have 'gods' that are in fact proven realities. Take for example the Eldar, I very much doubt that the Eldar Gods planned for the Fall, but it still happened. If you have a universe where several sets of entities are proven realities, then there is no way that they can be omnipotent as they would, at some point or other, contradict each other. Even the Chaos gods themselves are divided in their intent or final goal. What would satisfy Nurgle would not necessarily please Khorne, any more than every being succumbing to Tzneetch would please Slaneesh. As such, I find it hard to believe that there could be any kind of coherent plan that all 4 gods would adhere to, let alone other beings on the same power level Eldar gods, Gork/Mork).

Therefore, the Chaos Gods may have made the battle of Terra part of their plan, and set it up in the way they intended, but there would still be factors beyond their control. Some characters are entirely immune to the Warp, while others can deny it, so they clearly don't have complete power over every event, especially on such a scale.

Also, is there anything in that Chaos codex that explains the origin of that source? I'm not questioning its authenticity, but I wonder if it might have been written after the Battle of Terra and was a prophecy for the next 'war' given the failure of the first, rather than something that pre-dates the first Heresy. Also, I'd be interested to know to whom that quote/book was attributed, if at all, as as I mentioned before, the Chaos Gods, if they had a 'plan', would each have a different one, and one that would be constantly in flux.

As I said, though, great post, and a well-constructed argument.

 Paradigm wrote:
That's a great post about the idea that all of this was predestined by the Chaos gods, certainly puts a different spin on things. I'm not sure I entirely agree, though, that the Chaos Gods are warp entities of that kind of power. I know that sounds like nonsense, but I'll try to explain.

I don't think Gods in 40k work in the same way they would anywhere else, simply because there are several factions who all have 'gods' that are in fact proven realities. Take for example the Eldar, I very much doubt that the Eldar Gods planned for the Fall, but it still happened. If you have a universe where several sets of entities are proven realities, then there is no way that they can be omnipotent as they would, at some point or other, contradict each other. Even the Chaos gods themselves are divided in their intent or final goal. What would satisfy Nurgle would not necessarily please Khorne, any more than every being succumbing to Tzneetch would please Slaneesh. As such, I find it hard to believe that there could be any kind of coherent plan that all 4 gods would adhere to, let alone other beings on the same power level Eldar gods, Gork/Mork).

Therefore, the Chaos Gods may have made the battle of Terra part of their plan, and set it up in the way they intended, but there would still be factors beyond their control. Some characters are entirely immune to the Warp, while others can deny it, so they clearly don't have complete power over every event, especially on such a scale.

Also, is there anything in that Chaos codex that explains the origin of that source? I'm not questioning its authenticity, but I wonder if it might have been written after the Battle of Terra and was a prophecy for the next 'war' given the failure of the first, rather than something that pre-dates the first Heresy. Also, I'd be interested to know to whom that quote/book was attributed, if at all, as as I mentioned before, the Chaos Gods, if they had a 'plan', would each have a different one, and one that would be constantly in flux.

As I said, though, great post, and a well-constructed argument.

I only gained a greater appreciation for those specific Gods after reading through their Codex and seeing exactly how they think about each other and Real Space. While the Chaos Gods all do embody very different ideologies, they are not completely separate, or rather they are united by the Warp itself, which is the very substance the Chaos Gods are made of. Because of this, the Chaos Gods are known to unite for a common cause. One of the most notable instances of the Chaos Gods uniting towards a common purpose was the flinging of the Primarchs through space in the first place. The recognized a great threat there, and so sewed the seeds of deceit with their cast off into the void. Per the Daemons Codex, the entire Horus Heresy itself was orchestrated by the Chaos Gods starting with that first act of transgression against the Emperor by stealing his Primarchs while they were still in incubation. It was BECAUSE the Emperor threatened the Chaos Gods with his Primarchs that they turned his Primarchs against him.

Now, getting back into the versus/alliances of the Chaos Gods, they recognize only the "Great Game" as outlined in their Codex. The live to fight that war in the Warp and none else (Edit: The do live for the Great Game, but their goal is to bring Warp Space into Real Space and resume the game there). They compete, certainly, for dominance, but while each God works towards their own, ultimate end, it seems obvious that that end can never truly be seen. Such is the madness and nature of the Warp itself. Tzeentch weaves conspiracies to meet a "Great End." Nurgle churns his cauldron to brew the perfect disease. Khorne battles endlessly, and his battles in turn generate battles, eternally feeding the Blood God, hence why he is currently the dominant force in the Warp. And Slaanesh, youngest, and yet ever eternal as all the others, manipulates the desires of the Gods themselves to sustain himself. The "Great Game" however, is but a reflection of their desires for Real Space, for if the Warp were to forever breach, then the Great Game would be played out there instead.

Talking about other "Gods" and how they stack up to the Chaos Gods, they don't really. Each one, even the C'Tan Shards, manifest in Real Space, with the exception of maybe Gork and Mork who exist, really, only because the Orks believe they exist, which in turn would mean that the "realm of the Ork gods" is only the belief of the Orkz themselves, or perhaps is just the Spirit of the Orks. Kinda like with the Eldar (if i have a well enough understanding of them). Keila Mensha Khaine is the embodyment of the Eldars Rage, and so only exists in the Spirits of the Eldar, as suggested when Fulgrim kills Khaine on one of their Maiden Worlds. Talking about the Eldar more specifically though, they were also engaged with the Warp and suffered it's perils at the Birth of Slaanesh. So much so that even the supposed "Eldar Gods" were but dust in the Immaterium. While the Tau are ignorant of the Warp, they are still affected by it as much as Daemon Fire affects flesh. So they are only ignorant, and they don't seem to possess a divinity hierarchy. The Imperium makes angels and would otherwise deify the Emperor who also exists largely in real space, with a psychic thread back to the Warp.

The only race that really seems to escape this paradox are the Tyranids, and their sentience alone already exists outside of real space, as is suggested with Hive Mind species. Kinda like (bare with me) the Zerg in StarCraft. They had the Overmind that was omnipresent and yet never existing, and yet it had the capacity to manifest in a physical form in real space. I kind of see the Tyranid in this same light, except it seems highly unlikely that there is a central body, the way the Zerg tried in Star Craft. Even crazier with the Tyranid is their ability "Shadow on the Warp" which suggests to me that the Sentience within the Tyranids may actually be as separate from Real Space as the Chaos Gods are.

None of the supposed "Gods" actually work in the ways the Chaos Gods do. For example, Nurgle himself does not manifest in Real Space. He can't because he is bound too closely to the warp. This is where their Greater Daemons and Servants come in. Because they are spun from the Life of Real Space, lesser daemons are able to break the boundaries. But the Chaos Gods themselves cannot. They can only affect Real Space by reaching through the Living of Real Space; by reaching through those energies that sustain them (per the Daemons Codex, actually). This is why I count them as real gods, unlike Khaine or others. I'd consider the Nightbringer to be "Godly" as well, even though he is capable of breaking Real Space, however, that's because he can't seem to be defeated in real space, only banished when its power is expended (per DoW. God I hated Nightbringer).

Ok, so enough speculation about quasi-realistic deity talk, cause that could drag on a lot longer than I already wanted it too, and will try to get back to some specifics.

" Therefore, the Chaos Gods may have made the battle of Terra part of their plan, and set it up in the way they intended, but there would still be factors beyond their control. Some characters are entirely immune to the Warp, while others can deny it, so they clearly don't have complete power over every event, especially on such a scale." <--Tzeentch. lol. The Webs he Weaves are so inveigled that only he may ever see the full scale of his plans come to pass. If you have the Daemons Codex, however, read the story about the Changeling and how he sewed the first seed of doubt ever within the Grey Knights, an organization thought to be above and beyond reproach and corruption. What started with the Changeling starting a civil war that sees an entire sector burn, is all carefully plotted, planned and manipulated to bring doubt to but 1 Grey Knight, Brother Brutus.

I would like to say that not everything is realistically within their scope of control, as choice is the ultimate decider, however the manipulation they engage in is so outrageous it is almost impossible to say for sure and dangerous to not investigate as thoroughly as possible. For example, one could argue that Perturabo's defeat at the hands of Dorn flew in the face of the Chaos Gods, as it would seem they would want as many of their minions engaged as possible, and yet it is not possible to rule out the possiblity that Perturabo's defeat was pre-ordained if only to further drive malice into his Heart, or perhaps the Heart of Dorn himself. The scale is just to monstrous to say for certain, yet everything that is coming to pass suggests it all was.


"Also, is there anything in that Chaos codex that explains the origin of that source? I'm not questioning its authenticity, but I wonder if it might have been written after the Battle of Terra and was a prophecy for the next 'war' given the failure of the first, rather than something that pre-dates the first Heresy. Also, I'd be interested to know to whom that quote/book was attributed, if at all, as as I mentioned before, the Chaos Gods, if they had a 'plan', would each have a different one, and one that would be constantly in flux."

I wish there was. I'm still trying to find more "fluff" about this kind of stuff. As I started down this path, I laughed at myself thinking "I'm going to end up being an Oracle of Chaos by the end of this." lol If it had been written after the Battle of Terra, it could be said, (at the risk of stepping on toes and getting into a discussion I REALLY don't want to have) that the Liber Malefact was "inspired by the Chaos Gods," and so is still their Prophecy. Assuming it was written after the Battle of Terra, it is still prophetic in the sense that at that time, Abbadon had not yet risen to the ranks of "Traitor King." As I mentioned before, the Chaos Gods are not always at ends with each other. Per the Daemons Codex:


"From time to time there arises a being, place, object or event in the material universe that attracts the attention of all the Gods of Chaos. So important is this new element, so desired or so dangerous, that all rivalry is temporarily put aside in order for Chaos to take advantage of this particular opportunity, or thwart the threat it presents. Then the four work as one for a while, and the galaxy trembles before their combined might.

For Mankind, the most significant occasion of this type was the rise of the Emperor. During this period, the Chaos Gods tried with all their might to bring about the Master of Mankind's downfall, culminating in their corruption of the Primarchs and the wars of the Horus Heresy. Other events have led to briefer cessations of conflict in the Realm of Chaos: particularly promising Black Crusades, for example, or the extermination or birth of a new race."

On a side note, talking about other gods, the Daemons Codex suggests that there are "Lesser-Greater Daemons" like those of Nurgle, Khorne, Slaanesh and Tzeentch, however they do not command near enough the power that the Four Ruinous Powers do. Presences like Jeff, the God of Biscuits and Simon the God of Hair-doo's.

Talking briefly about the Liber Malefact again, and then I'll shut up for a while and go back to reading (lol), I think it might actually predate the Horus Heresy. For some reason, I feel like I read in one of the Horus Heresy books that Loken or someone else wandered into a Library and found this book on its shelves. Granted, it probably had a different name or something like that, but the statement seemed the same. If anyone can help me source that, it would be greatly appreciated and deserving of the Mark of Awesome. XD

Again, a very informative post. I must admit that the demonic side of Chaos is one of the areas I'm not that familiar with, so that was very helpful and I now understand where you're coming from more.

I see what you mean about working towards a 'Great Game' and how everything is building up to this, unwillingly or not, but I still reckon that there is far more beyond their control than inside it. The best example I can think of is the arrival of the Tyranids (and the impending arrival of even more). I'm almost certain that the Shadow in the Warp caused by each Hive Fleet threw a massive spanner in the works of Chaos, and probably disrupted their plans significantly. For the first time, a race has emerged that is as powerful in the Warp as it is in Realspace, and that must surely have given them pause for thought.

In light of the fact there seems to be no real fluff on the Liber Malefact, I would lean towards the fact that it was written by a prophet of chaos rather than the Gods or their manifestations, and as such, is more of an interpretation of events than a concrete 'this is what will happen' affair. I say this because, as you said, there is no way any mortal could understand or even begin to explain the works of the Gods, so it's just one possible version. Dare I say it, the 'Traitor King' may not even be a reference to Abbadon. I realise this is pretty far-fetched, but given that even the 10,000 years between the Heresy and the 'present' is just the blink of an eye to Chaos, then it's possible, if probably not likely.

I would also say that, as it was the rise of the Emperor that caused Chaos to unite, then surely that implies he is a threat to them. As such, the events around him could be said to be equally in his hands as theirs, so as the Heresy had him at its centre, it is the perfect example of where Chaos did not have anything approaching control. If they had wanted to bring the Emperor down, then you would have thought they would have claimed all the primarchs, if as you say each was just as weak to them as the Traitors. The Battle of Terra specifically is an even more prominent example, as the Emperor himself was directly involved.

Also, if I ever do a Chaos army, I may need to have at least a squad each dedicated to Jeff and Simon... BISCUITS FOR THE BISCUIT THRONE, THE TIME FOR SNACKS IS COME!

 Paradigm wrote:
Again, a very informative post. I must admit that the demonic side of Chaos is one of the areas I'm not that familiar with, so that was very helpful and I now understand where you're coming from more.

I see what you mean about working towards a 'Great Game' and how everything is building up to this, unwillingly or not, but I still reckon that there is far more beyond their control than inside it. The best example I can think of is the arrival of the Tyranids (and the impending arrival of even more). I'm almost certain that the Shadow in the Warp caused by each Hive Fleet threw a massive spanner in the works of Chaos, and probably disrupted their plans significantly. For the first time, a race has emerged that is as powerful in the Warp as it is in Realspace, and that must surely have given them pause for thought.

In light of the fact there seems to be no real fluff on the Liber Malefact, I would lean towards the fact that it was written by a prophet of chaos rather than the Gods or their manifestations, and as such, is more of an interpretation of events than a concrete 'this is what will happen' affair. I say this because, as you said, there is no way any mortal could understand or even begin to explain the works of the Gods, so it's just one possible version. Dare I say it, the 'Traitor King' may not even be a reference to Abbadon. I realise this is pretty far-fetched, but given that even the 10,000 years between the Heresy and the 'present' is just the blink of an eye to Chaos, then it's possible, if probably not likely.

I would also say that, as it was the rise of the Emperor that caused Chaos to unite, then surely that implies he is a threat to them. As such, the events around him could be said to be equally in his hands as theirs, so as the Heresy had him at its centre, it is the perfect example of where Chaos did not have anything approaching control. If they had wanted to bring the Emperor down, then you would have thought they would have claimed all the primarchs, if as you say each was just as weak to them as the Traitors. The Battle of Terra specifically is an even more prominent example, as the Emperor himself was directly involved.

Also, if I ever do a Chaos army, I may need to have at least a squad each dedicated to Jeff and Simon... BISCUITS FOR THE BISCUIT THRONE, THE TIME FOR SNACKS IS COME!

The "Great Game" refers to the endless warring in the Warp. They wish to spread the "Great Game" into real space. I agree, the Tyranids definitely throw a wrench into the plannings of Chaos, however it seems not so much sense even Khorne wears Tyranid skulls on his throne. So it's like they're expecting it and relishing the chance to fight with some fresh meat although I am wondering exactly what the full extent Tyranids have on the Warp. Going back to the Liber Malefact, I would agree, it seems far more likely that this was a book written by a prophet, but as I said, "Inspired by the Chaos Gods." As prophetic as an image in a lake as a ripple passes through. About the Traitor King: You know who else could fit that bill and has been on the rise of Chaos Power? Lugft Huron/Huron Blackheart/The Tyrant of Badab. He DIED was rebuilt and put back into his body, and he came back with the Hamadrya, a familiar unknown by the Forces of Chaos. Huron definitely looks like he's got the Mark. +__+

The Rise of the Emperor was just one instance where the Chaos Gods rallied against a common enemy. Incidentally, the Emperor had incredibly prescience himself, so in my mind, it's like (going back to deifying him) the Emperor was a 5th Chaos God who rebelled against his nature and defended man. It is because of all of his inhuman gifts that the Primarchs only embody fractions of, that allowed him to wage war against the very Gods of Chaos. Ultimately though, we're talking 1 against 4, and it didn't even take the 4 directly intervening to get the Emperor killed. Such is the convoluted scheming of the Great Conspirator. Side note about Tzeentch: It was said that before Khorne took power, Tzeentch was at the head of the hierarchy. It was only after the other three gods turned on him and threw him from his precipice, that he shattered into a thousand x a thousand pieces, for which the Blue Scribes were created to restore. :O To further emphasize the reach and scope of the Architect of Fate.

Going back to Terra though, and how the Emperor may have had greater sway over his fate than others (as I said before, Choice is the ultimate decider. Unfortunately those choices are manipulated and stacked against us, it would seem) he was still dealing with the conspiracies of many across the scope of creation. Something else to keep in mind, which could very easily have compromised his prescience under the circumstances (which is actually hinted at in the Chaos Marines Codex) is that not only was the Warp pressing down on his throat from every angle, but he was also put to grief at the word of his favored sons betrayal. Even the Emperor did not know how the battle would end, and thus gambit'd the battle with Horus.

And think about this: Two titanic forces, mortally locked in combat between their followers and each other. Horus, blinded by pride and the Emperor, blinded by the same grief that took Dorn for a moment. In the Land of the Blind, the One Eyed Man is King. +__+ ...Nurgle. XD

If you ever get a chance to read the Daemons Codex, do it. It is an amazing read. XD It is so unbelievable insightful about the goings on in the universe, and how lackadaisical the Gods can be about even their threats. lol I've become rabid about trying to find more books with Daemons in them, just to see how they operate better.

Also, this has been an awesome discussion.

And Simon and Jeff would be pleased...so long as they all have fabulous hair.

I must admit I was kind of joking about Abbadon, just trying to point out that prophecy of any kind (and we're talking in any form of mythology, look at the ancient Greek stuff) is open to any interpretation, and can never be assumed to be literal or obvious in meaning. It could be that the Traitor King refers to a power that has not yet risen, or one that, through some quirk of fate, never rose. While the plans of Chaos are constantly in motion, a book, once written, is always written, and so that prophecy may have been about events that have not yet, or never will, come to pass. As I say, I'm just playing devil's advocate here.

I'll have to find out about some of the demon fluff, it sounds great. It's funny how they are the one army whose fluff I'm not up to speed on, one of only 2 armies I've never even played against (I've seen/played against SOB more than demons). I shall certainly have to do some research.

Lol I got ya. From a literal stand point, certainly. But from the novel stand point, it's gotta be abbadon. Yeah. Daemons are fun. It's hard to wrap my mind around their play style but the filler is fantastic. I got the codex before I had daemons and have been very happy with that buy.