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It should be pistol which they are.

Im thinking along the line of GK tech marine w/ thunder fire for multi barrage fun times.

Also coteaz for divination.

These all seem pretty damn broken. Almost every one of them can be compared to an existing Space Marine chapter tactic, and in almost every case, the non-Forgeworld army is getting the short end of the stick.

The characters in the associated update seem pretty outlandish as well. Particularly the psyker who can pick all his powers.

 Jimsolo wrote:
These all seem pretty damn broken. Almost every one of them can be compared to an existing Space Marine chapter tactic, and in almost every case, the non-Forgeworld army is getting the short end of the stick.

The characters in the associated update seem pretty outlandish as well. Particularly the psyker who can pick all his powers.

Clearly you haven't seen the Executioners, who now act like some twisted mix of BT and CSM.

I'm loving the Mantis Warriors rule. Been thinking of homeruling my Ork Kommandos to have something like this and now I have a precedent... also bodes well for the new codex which should hopefully make them useful.

Gotta admit, free medic in every squad is a bit much, but I love the stuff for the... Carcedonians or whatever (bonus CCW for 1pt, fear, etc)

I am really liking them. Most of them are nothing spectacular but they all change how the army works making SM officially the army with the most options.

 Jimsolo wrote:
These all seem pretty damn broken. Almost every one of them can be compared to an existing Space Marine chapter tactic, and in almost every case, the non-Forgeworld army is getting the short end of the stick.

The characters in the associated update seem pretty outlandish as well. Particularly the psyker who can pick all his powers.

Actually look at the codex abilities. None of the abilities in this document are even equal to Imperial Fists, Salamanders, or White Scars. Most of these aren't even equal to Iron Hands.



BTW everyone seems to think Red Scorpions are incredible but in reality they are only about as good as Iron Hands; really look at it it is 5+ FnP on TAC squads that can be sniped vs 6+ FnP that is everlasting on everyone. The Red Scrops then cannot GtG nor have camo cloaks this is vs IWND on characters and vehicles. I find it interesting people are going ga ga over Red Scorps but Iron Hands has been largely ignored.

I personally am really digging the Red Hunters and Raptors chapter tactics. I am thrilled my Grey Knights can finally get some BB allies action. The Raptors have some real interesting synergy with an all scouts list. I can really see some fun in 60 rending bolter shots turn 1. Not super powerful but finally an all scouts army is not terribad.

I also am sorely tempted to model a bunch of double flame pistols. I don't think the ability is as strong as salamanders but it is interesting and gives large scale access to hand flamers...which is awesome.

My space sharks are loving the boost to our rules. I'm so excited as I feel like they can now have a personality without haVing to take tyboros if I don't want to.

dot backslash wrote:

 Coyote81 wrote:
You can give your bikes CC weapons for 1pt and with the chance to get rage after devastating a unit with a gravrifle volley. Units fall back from shooting as well.

I really like the Firehawks tactics. Thinking of bringing a command squad with banner with 2x Hand Flamer apothacary and 3 guys with 2x Hand Flamers in a dropped.. Thats 8 S4 flame templates on drop aand5 attacks a piece on the charge. And don't even try to charge them first.

Just a question but how are you shooting both hand flamers on each guy? They are assault 1 and not pistols aren't they? Hence you can't benefit from the gunslinger rule?

I may be wrong though I haven't had any experience with hand flamers!

They used to be Pistol weapons in every other book I've seen, and they are listed as pistols in the BRB weapon index. I don't think anyone I know will argue that they are not pistols. The BA hand flamer models are even pistol grips.

dot backslash wrote:

 Coyote81 wrote:
You can give your bikes CC weapons for 1pt and with the chance to get rage after devastating a unit with a gravrifle volley. Units fall back from shooting as well.

I really like the Firehawks tactics. Thinking of bringing a command squad with banner with 2x Hand Flamer apothacary and 3 guys with 2x Hand Flamers in a dropped.. Thats 8 S4 flame templates on drop aand5 attacks a piece on the charge. And don't even try to charge them first.

Just a question but how are you shooting both hand flamers on each guy? They are assault 1 and not pistols aren't they? Hence you can't benefit from the gunslinger rule?

I may be wrong though I haven't had any experience with hand flamers!

Ricter wrote:coyote, I don't think bikes count as tactical squads.

Damn, missed that, thanks.

 ansacs wrote:
I am really liking them. Most of them are nothing spectacular but they all change how the army works making SM officially the army with the most options.

 Jimsolo wrote:
These all seem pretty damn broken. Almost every one of them can be compared to an existing Space Marine chapter tactic, and in almost every case, the non-Forgeworld army is getting the short end of the stick.

The characters in the associated update seem pretty outlandish as well. Particularly the psyker who can pick all his powers.

Actually look at the codex abilities. None of the abilities in this document are even equal to Imperial Fists, Salamanders, or White Scars. Most of these aren't even equal to Iron Hands.



BTW everyone seems to think Red Scorpions are incredible but in reality they are only about as good as Iron Hands; really look at it it is 5+ FnP on TAC squads that can be sniped vs 6+ FnP that is everlasting on everyone. The Red Scrops then cannot GtG nor have camo cloaks this is vs IWND on characters and vehicles. I find it interesting people are going ga ga over Red Scorps but Iron Hands has been largely ignored.

I personally am really digging the Red Hunters and Raptors chapter tactics. I am thrilled my Grey Knights can finally get some BB allies action. The Raptors have some real interesting synergy with an all scouts list. I can really see some fun in 60 rending bolter shots turn 1. Not super powerful but finally an all scouts army is not terribad.

I also am sorely tempted to model a bunch of double flame pistols. I don't think the ability is as strong as salamanders but it is interesting and gives large scale access to hand flamers...which is awesome.

I myself love how well themed the tactics are and already have approval from my FLGS TO to use them. Collecting Beaky Heads and Handflamers atm., My Droppod Command Squad with Handflamer spam is going to be fun.

 jose kantor wrote:
My space sharks are loving the boost to our rules. I'm so excited as I feel like they can now have a personality without haVing to take tyboros if I don't want to.

W-why wouldn't you want to take Tyberos...

I really like Executioners.

Imagine this: Chapter Master (Bike, Shield Eternal, Burning Blade, Artificer) w/ Executioner tactics. This guy is a challenge god!

Lucarikx

Red Scorpions seem OP because people think it's all squads, picture t5 bikes/centurions with FNP, and forget that FNP is only for tac marine squads.

Honestly, I can count on one hand the number of times I've had something sniped out of a squad. Losing GtG and Camo Cloaks isn't that big of a deal either, especially given the buff that their tac squads get. Carcharodons are pretty nasty too. What essentially amounts to a free attack on almost every model (or an extra attack for +1 point in the worst of circumstances) coupled with every unit gaining one of the Space Marines Warlord traits seems a bit excessive to me. The Fire Hawks are simply out of control.

The Executioners and Raptors are a little closer to legitimate, and I might allow them in a competitive event.

(I'm not knocking Iron Hands at all, by the way. Probably the best of the chapter tactics in the main book, if I had to pick one. I wish I didn't already have my whole army painted as Salamanders, or I would have gone IH! )

I don't think Firehawks are really out of control with the costs on jump troops and the downsides of putting too many guys in reserves.

The thing is Jimsolo, FW has a free hand to create what they think is neat and cool. Unfortunately they /REALLY/ comes across as not very well thought out or play tested. The problem is that there are some that are better than in the Codex, and most of us can see that just by looking at it. Why FW thought these were balanced to each other or the core Codex is beyond me.

I think if GW would have given two lists (Column A and Column B) and said 'Your home brew chapter can use one choice from Column A and one choice from Column B' in their codex, things would be cleaner. FW might have used that, there would be no debate on if they are balanced or not. To bad GW doesn't have that foresight.

I think the interesting thing will be chapter tactics for Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Grey Knights. I want to see where GW goes with them. That will give time to see if the FW Tactics are actually balanced for mixed play or if those codexes are comparable to the FW ones (aka Red Scorpions vs Blood Angels).

 Coyote81 wrote:
I don't think Firehawks are really out of control with the costs on jump troops and the downsides of putting too many guys in reserves.

IMO +1S on the turn of a deep strike for flame weapons and hand flamers<All flame weapons are TL and every character gets a MC weapon.>

For me, is the first time FW did a good update for the books they done. When they wrote the Baddab War book, when you read it, the only way to have a FW chapter (like Raptors, Fire Hawks etc) was to add a special character. Now we don't have to have to do so to play our FW army and I was waiting that for a long time.

I don't think those chapter tactics are over power, most of them are ultramarine chapter tactics but when you add the special chapter character, now the fun begin. Look at the Star Phantom : Hail of Destruction made your Rapid Fire, Assault, Salvo and Heavy Weapons as being twin-linked for more or less your turn and your opponent turn. If you have Androcles leading your army (you can have devastator squad as elite, mean for me 6 devastators squad in drop pod) and you bring a lot of twin-linked heavy madness.

Jimsolo wrote:Honestly, I can count on one hand the number of times I've had something sniped out of a squad. Losing GtG and Camo Cloaks isn't that big of a deal either, especially given the buff that their tac squads get. Carcharodons are pretty nasty too. What essentially amounts to a free attack on almost every model (or an extra attack for +1 point in the worst of circumstances) coupled with every unit gaining one of the Space Marines Warlord traits seems a bit excessive to me. The Fire Hawks are simply out of control.

The Executioners and Raptors are a little closer to legitimate, and I might allow them in a competitive event.

(I'm not knocking Iron Hands at all, by the way. Probably the best of the chapter tactics in the main book, if I had to pick one. I wish I didn't already have my whole army painted as Salamanders, or I would have gone IH! )

I think you need to reread the rules here.

If you are not getting stuff like a medic sniped out by LoS sniping, DS sniping, or barrage sniping then you need to teach your opponent's how to do so. These are basic skills that I use and see used against me in almost every game. Additionally it is only on tactical squads. So your assertion is that 6+ on everything is worse than 5+ on a unit no one wants to take? Have you ever heard gosh I wish I could take more tactical squads?

Carcharodons CC weapon rules are TAC squads only...yeah that tones it down real quick. Honestly the rage ability could be cool but I dare you to play test it. In my experiences of assault getting rage after winning combats will only hurt the unit. (ie this will cause overkills leading to killing speed bump units in single assault phases, which is exactly what the assault units do NOT want)

The firehawks only get their +1 Str when they DS. List how many times you have full scatter DS so that you can place flame template in any reasonable way.

BlkTom wrote:The thing is Jimsolo, FW has a free hand to create what they think is neat and cool. Unfortunately they /REALLY/ comes across as not very well thought out or play tested. The problem is that there are some that are better than in the Codex, and most of us can see that just by looking at it. Why FW thought these were balanced to each other or the core Codex is beyond me.

I think if GW would have given two lists (Column A and Column B) and said 'Your home brew chapter can use one choice from Column A and one choice from Column B' in their codex, things would be cleaner. FW might have used that, there would be no debate on if they are balanced or not. To bad GW doesn't have that foresight.

I think the interesting thing will be chapter tactics for Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Grey Knights. I want to see where GW goes with them. That will give time to see if the FW Tactics are actually balanced for mixed play or if those codexes are comparable to the FW ones (aka Red Scorpions vs Blood Angels).

When I read stuff like this I just can't help but think of Mongolian Grill where you have millions of combos available but every dish comes out tasting the same.

As for your assertion that these abilities are more powerful than codex abilities I call foul and say you should back your statement with actual positions.

BTW if you compare BA to IH you will feel sad for BA. The BA codex definitely needs an update and has been a poorly balanced dex since it's release. Honestly the only reason it suffered so bad going into 6th is that it only really had 2 builds that were nothing but spam razorbacks or spam priest/assault marines.

The Raptors one is amazing. Rending Bolters? Sure!

Heavy 1 Rending bolters.
Not THAT amazing.

Its nice to have (might as well use it if you are too far for a double tap and dont want to move anyway), but not something to build your army around.

It does add up nicely with the "scout the entire army" part of the tactics though.

Sometimes a 190pt character is too many points at low point limits. That's why I wouldn't take tyboros. I just like that I have options now. Now on that more of course if I have the points I'd take tyboros