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I mostly play at a games club, for which we pay on a weekly basis - three quid for up to five hours' gaming.

I also visit Common Ground Games in Stirling, which is in a venue which used to be a snooker hall. They charge £3.50 for a day (a bit less for the smaller tables for boardgames and cards). For that, I get sturdily-built tables with a good selection of terrain for a variety of periods and scales. More importantly, I get a well-lit, well ventilated venue, not the cramped, dark space that I get if I descend into the local GW. They also sell drinks, snacks and toasties, which is a bonus.

Nope in my local games workshop you play for free. But if they do I just simply won't play there.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

I disagree. It may be in a business, but you dont get into game trade if you hate it. If they want the internet crowd then they have to offer money saving expenses not forcing you to pay. Im not thinking "Oh im going to pay full price because its where I play" Im thinking "Ugh, I can drive 15 minutes longer and get it for 20% less with no shipping. Like the store, they use to have a "If you get 1000 points your get 20% off a product" it was 1$=1pt, so I had to spend alot of money to save it. What they need is something like "for every 10$ purchase you make, you get a stamp, 10 stamps you get a 20$ gift card"

And this is why you see pay to play becoming more popular, you pay more at the Brick and Mortar because he has more expenses, the "incentive" your looking for is the place to play. Commercial real estate rent is expensive, insurance coverage for retail is expensive, these are things your internet stores don't even have to think about.

For instance I can buy direct from a distributor because I own a retail store, when I was not playing at a LFGS and just playing in basement games I bought all my stuff at 40-33% off, I still can should I choose to. I purchase from where I play at zero discount because the store owner has custom built tables with zuzzy mats and a ton of terrain. I am paying that extra 30% for the gaming space and the gaming environment.

If they do not sell anything how are the supposed to pay the rent?

I call the following incentives:

*Tables with terrain.
*A meeting place for an array of opponents so I don't have to spend my time organizing 'hey you wanna play this weekend'
*Clean space opposed to having to go to some guys weird basement while his kids scream and touch my models.
*Events which maximize the use of my time, like a megabattle or tourney or campaign so I don't have to stand around looking for opponents.
*Lights with which to see in the darkness.

It is almost like when I go to a restaurant... Instead of buying stuff to take home and cook in my Kitchen, I am going out to have someone else prepare the food and let me eat it at their location. And for such a service, I pay extra cost than the discounted rate for buying and taking it home and then I pay even more to TIP someone who serves me so I don't have to do it.

If you can't afford to pay extra and tip your waiter 20%, you shouldn't go out to eat.

If you can't afford to pay 20% over an internet discounter, you shouldn't expect to game in someone else's retail space.

They provide a service which costs money... Some people are just entitled deadbeats. Hence why we get displaced by MtG people because they make the store money. I think people who have been forced to pay for and run a 'gaming club' due to lack of FLGS get it. They see the costs 'open play' really have and without a revenue stream to cover it, they have to pay dues.

If they want me to spend money, offer a money saving incentive

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
If they want me to spend money, offer a money saving incentive

Then you need to leave and not game there. Problem solved.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I disagree. It may be in a business, but you dont get into game trade if you hate it. If they want the internet crowd then they have to offer money saving expenses not forcing you to pay. Im not thinking "Oh im going to pay full price because its where I play" Im thinking "Ugh, I can drive 15 minutes longer and get it for 20% less with no shipping. Like the store, they use to have a "If you get 1000 points your get 20% off a product" it was 1$=1pt, so I had to spend alot of money to save it. What they need is something like "for every 10$ purchase you make, you get a stamp, 10 stamps you get a 20$ gift card"

You may open a store because you like gaming, but there are two types of 'gamers' that open a gaming store. The first are people looking the make money, and the second are people looking to make/hang out with their friends. Only one of those stores will remain open for any significant period of time. No one is going to open a store for gamers because they hate gamers, we're not the richest bunch, we're not the friendliest bunch, and we're not the cleanest bunch (though these are stereotypes and we have outliers on both ends), though Kronk is rich, friendly, cleanly, and smexy as all get out and you shouldn't introduce your mom or your sister to him. You open a small business because you think you can provide something that people need. A gaming store manifests this in one of two ways, product and tables to play on. If you offer good product at a good price, but no place to play then people (in America) might buy from a place they can play at (though our UK brothers might be okay with this type of store). If you offer a space to play, but no product then people might play at your store but you're not going to stay open very long if you don't do something make money off of it. If you have a space to play and no one is buying anything from you, you're going to monetize that play space because it's the only thing that is making money in your store. Let's use another example, like airsoft or paintball. Paintball and Airsoft players need 2 things, a place to buy their toys and a place to play. Most of these players will buy their stuff online from the manufacturer, or some discount seller. They can burn a hole in their pocket as much as they want, but it's fething useless if they don't have a place to play. So I can say, "I'm going to take and buy this small bit of land and then charge Paintball and Airsoft players to play on my land!" So I now have a product that airsoft and paintball players need, space to use their toys. Why would I offer these services for free? I have to be responsible for the land and its upkeep as well as the taxes, bills, etc.. not to mention insurance because someone could get hurt while playing on my field! So I charge the players so I can make the money to cover these things as well as other important things to me like my food, my housing, etc... Now I might just offer these players something in addition to the land, I might have masks, goggles, gloves, ammo, etc... available for purchase so players who need more or forgot some of their kit can buy it from me. It's not necessary, but it is good business sense, it's part of the reason why gum and candy is right next to the cash register. You may not think you need it when you come in, but by the time you get to the register, you've been sitting there thinking, "ya know, I could probably spend a buck on some candy." and you do.

So if we go back to the game store, I as the owner might be an avid gamer, but I'm there to be a business, not to be an afterschool club, or a babysitter, I'm there to make money and I provide things that gamers might want/need so that I can make my money. If I offer paintball guns and let people play for free, I expect people to buy their ammo, guns, etc... from me. If I offer Warhammer 40k models and I let people play 40k on my tables for free, I expect people to buy their models, paints, etc... from me. If people go to a different store that offers discounts or buy online because it's cheaper, then I have to start charging people to use my tables.

At the end of the day sauceman, it's my store and my business if people are going to go out of their way to get the cheapest price they can get to the point that it affects my bottom line and sales, then they can deal with the consequences of me charging them to play in my store. Now with that being said, I believe you left your old not just because they started charging people to play, but because the owner was an asshat about more than just charging people to play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
If they want me to spend money, offer a money saving incentive

Their money saving incentive is giving you a space to play that includes a table for you and your opponent to play space mans on for several hours, including enough terrain to make the game fun and look cool. If you do not consider this a money saving incentive, then you are more than welcome to play at home using materials for your table that you bought with your money.

Well said, Alf.

 kronk wrote:
Well said, Alf.

You liked the part where I said you were the richest, friendliest, cleanliest, and smexiest man as all get out and that no one should introduce their mother or sister you, didn't you?

Also, while I was typing, craploads of this thread had gone by

text removed.


Reds8n

 Alfndrate wrote:


At the end of the day sauceman, it's my store and my business if people are going to go out of their way to get the cheapest price they can get to the point that it affects my bottom line and sales, then they can deal with the consequences of me charging them to play in my store. Now with that being said, I believe you left your old not just because they started charging people to play, but because the owner was an asshat about more than just charging people to play.

Oh yeah, He hated 40k and showed it. Dropping the monthly Tournament for warmachine, Allowing Warmachine on 40k night(Ohhhh but not Vice Versa) and dropping 40k product left and right so you could only get it if you ordered it, but then it takes the same amount(IF not LONGER) then if you ordered it from a discount retailer one city apart. He used to do reviews about games on his blog.....but then it just went business type blog of "We got THIS new toy this week"

My new store doesnt discount, but the owner is awesome. Too bad other crowd of the other store started to spread nasty rumors about it.
It is what im saying is the to me, caring about the game is more important then anything else, The new store is about fostering a community in the store and not business that he stays open till 12 at nigh for us to have fun. If you want people to play At your store and buy, offer more incentive then product.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

It is what im saying is the to me, caring about the game is more important then anything else, The new store is about fostering a community in the store and not business that he stays open till 12 at nigh for us to have fun. If you want people to play At your store and buy, offer more incentive then product.

How is 'staying open until 12am' not 'more incentive than the product'? How is 'providing tables in general' not 'more incentive than the product'?

You say you want a charity that provides a lot of services, then pretend those services are not incentives that deserve compensation?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:


My new store doesnt discount, but the owner is awesome. Too bad other crowd of the other store started to spread nasty rumors about it.
It is what im saying is the to me, caring about the game is more important then anything else, The new store is about fostering a community in the store and not business that he stays open till 12 at nigh for us to have fun. If you want people to play At your store and buy, offer more incentive then product.

This is the guy you buy from and whose store you play at, right?

The staying open till twevle is an incentive.

Local store is free, we help them move merchandise. They also do a swap meet once every 3 to 4 months were people show up with their models they want to sell. they line up all the tables and display there stuff and the price they want for it. You can even haggle down the price a bit. Lets you score some really cool older models once in a while. All purchases are in cash and between the individuals. shop owners just provide the area to do it in. very cool store.

 kronk wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:


My new store doesnt discount, but the owner is awesome. Too bad other crowd of the other store started to spread nasty rumors about it.
It is what im saying is the to me, caring about the game is more important then anything else, The new store is about fostering a community in the store and not business that he stays open till 12 at nigh for us to have fun. If you want people to play At your store and buy, offer more incentive then product.

This is the guy you buy from and whose store you play at, right?

Well I became poor since I went to his store, but when I need something I buy from him yes,

Gotcha.

You're paying where you play, which is something I recommend to other players that play at game stores, be they FLGS or GW or whatever.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Oh yeah, He hated 40k and showed it. Dropping the monthly Tournament for warmachine, Allowing Warmachine on 40k night(Ohhhh but not Vice Versa) and dropping 40k product left and right so you could only get it if you ordered it, but then it takes the same amount(IF not LONGER) then if you ordered it from a discount retailer one city apart. He used to do reviews about games on his blog.....but then it just went business type blog of "We got THIS new toy this week"

1) He was probably upset at the fact that GW was screwing him over on the business end of things, or he just disliked the game and didn't want to support it (that's a bad move on his part)
2) Depending on the 40k product it is going to take forever to get it in store because GW has an iron grip on what you can and cannot get from them. It took me a month and a half to get my hands on a Gakcast Lysander model and this was from a store that has a trade account with GW.
3) How many people showed up on 40k night? If it was one or two tables being taken up and there was unused space, then it's his choice as the owner of the establishment to allow people to play when he wants/needs space to be filled. The same holds true for the tournaments, if there aren't many people showing up then he's well within his right to cancel a game's event due to low turn out
4) Well I would hope his business's blog announced what they had gotten in as it'd be a little egg on their face if they got in a product and no one knew it came in. Also reviews take time, if he doesn't have the time to review it, he won't have the time to put it into a blog. He probably doesn't have the time because he is busy running his store regardless of how well he is doing it.

My new store doesnt discount, but the owner is awesome. Too bad other crowd of the other store started to spread nasty rumors about it.
It is what im saying is the to me, caring about the game is more important then anything else, The new store is about fostering a community in the store and not business that he stays open till 12 at nigh for us to have fun. If you want people to play At your store and buy, offer more incentive then product.

So as long as I care about the game that's important to you, you'll play in my store even if I have terrible space to play, charge 5 bucks, and don't offer you a discount? Gaaaaak boy, do I have a bridge to sell you. Also "offer more incentive than product?" They do, they offer you a space to play in addition to a place to buy product. If a gamer is going to bite their thumb at the store and order from "DEEP DALLAS DISCOUNTS, LLC" (A Mandelbaum ShellCo.) and play at the store's tables, why should the store not charge to use their tables? This is why I always, always, always, suggest to pay where you play. Buy product from the store that gives you the opportunity to game in a store, because if you don't, then you'll be without a place to play*.

* - a place to play does not preclude garage gaming if you play at home, or in a club buy wherever the hell you want.

Edit: It seems this thread moves fast when I'm typing up a response.

now his new toys where things like "We have a new Cash register the places the ol one" or "We got Another Ipad that you wont pay attention too" and things like that

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
now his new toys where things like "We have a new Cash register the places the ol one" or "We got Another Ipad that you wont pay attention too" and things like that

Then he's just an idiot.

Tell me this. Who here would pour money into a store and support it if when you actually wanted a game ya couldnt cos some random pleb off the street who aint spent a single penny in that place has taken up the table?

 Lutharr101 wrote:
Tell me this. Who here would pour money into a store and support it if when you actually wanted a game ya couldnt cos some random pleb off the street who aint spent a single penny in that place has taken up the table?

I'm sorry, do you even English? I'm struggling to see what you're asking here.

Allow me to translate,
"What would you do if you wanted to get a game in at a store you supported and bought from, but couldn't because someone who doesn't spend money at that store was taking up the table(s)?"

its quite clear english smartarse


EDIT: why does this stupid thing keep saying im in the USA when im in Rotherham, England

 Alfndrate wrote:
Allow me to translate,
"What would you do if you wanted to get a game in at a store you supported and bought from, but couldn't because someone who doesn't spend money at that store was taking up the table(s)?"

Well, this might be my Englishness showing through, but situations like this are all too common. The guy won't be taking up the table (or tables. Not sure how exactly) all day. You wait, you socialize with other people that are there. You do a bit of painting. If it comes to a point where they're taking the piss (such as with a couple of guys in my local GW once who spent around 2 hours on 2 turns of WHFB, it was obvious neither knew how to play the game), then it's time to possibly get the staffer to intervene.

I wouldn't immediately go crying to the owner, as usually the situations resolve themselves one way or another in my experience.

 Lutharr101 wrote:
It is quite clearly english smart***.

Fixed that for ya

 Lutharr101 wrote:
its quite clear english smartarse

It's not. I read it 3 or 4 times and still could not understand what you were getting at. Try injecting a little punctuation into your posts next time.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
Allow me to translate,
"What would you do if you wanted to get a game in at a store you supported and bought from, but couldn't because someone who doesn't spend money at that store was taking up the table(s)?"

Well, this might be my Englishness showing through, but situations like this are all too common. The guy won't be taking up the table (or tables. Not sure how exactly) all day. You wait, you socialize with other people that are there. You do a bit of painting. If it comes to a point where they're taking the piss (such as with a couple of guys in my local GW once who spent around 2 hours on 2 turns of WHFB, it was obvious neither knew how to play the game), then it's time to possibly get the staffer to intervene.

I wouldn't immediately go crying to the owner, as usually the situations resolve themselves one way or another in my experience.

I'm in a similar situation, I'd shoot the gak with my friends, etc... And I've also never been in a store where all of the tables were taken up in such a way that we couldn't play. There is a reason why I bring my X-Wing and Magic cards with me to the game store on Fridays, because you'll never know when you may not have enough space for a 40k game, or w/e we're playing that day.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Lutharr101 wrote:
its quite clear english smartarse

It's not. I read it 3 or 4 times and still could not understand what you were getting at. Try injecting a little punctuation into your posts next time.

Funny how someone else got it straight away yet you couldnt. Maybe the punctuation wasnt perfect but its easily understandable.

 Lutharr101 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Lutharr101 wrote:
its quite clear english smartarse

It's not. I read it 3 or 4 times and still could not understand what you were getting at. Try injecting a little punctuation into your posts next time.

Funny how someone else got it straight away yet you couldnt. Maybe the punctuation wasnt perfect but its easily understandable.

I didn't understand it until Alf posted the translation. Looking back on it, I can now see what you're saying.