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Psienesis wrote: Per "Space Marine", the canon ending is that the Blood Ravens purge their Chapter of its heretical elements and are then sent on a Penitent Crusade, changing their battle-cry to "None shall find us wanting!".
And... no. Just because you have "rebuilt" your Chapter and supposedly purged it of all heretical taint... it's a really good idea if some outside observers keep an eye on you, just in case, because you lot fethed up real bad in the very recent past, and we're not going to let that happen again.
Personally, I think the 1KS link is weak... and rather fail-sauce, because of the BR history. If they are a 1KS Successor, their actions indicate a very strong propensity for falling to heresy.
The Thousand Sons link is probably the most convincing for me. For these reasons: The Blood Ravens are established to have enough similarities in battle doctrine (i.e. high number of psykers and the use thereof) to the Thousand Sons that it has been noted by observers within the fiction itself. The pre-Heresy heraldry of the Thousand Sons is similar to the heraldry of the Blood Ravens; specifically the Thousand Sons Corvidae cult, who as well as wearing the red armour of all Thousand Sons, also sport a black raven insignia The psyker Kallista Eris had a vision concerning the fate of the Thousand Sons shortly before the Burning of Prospero. Among other things she mentioned "The Ravens. I see them too. The lost sons and a Raven of blood. They cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied!" The Blood Ravens' motto "Knowledge is power" was uttered by the Thousand Son Corvidae member Revuel Arvida upon his decision to dedicate himself to discovering the true causes of his Legion's destruction and combat them. Arvida was a member of the fleet-elements of the Thousand Sons who were sent into hiding by Magnus the Red prior to the Space Wolves' attack upon the Legion and therefore did not fall to Chaos during the Burning of Prospero. Thus we have a non-Chaos aligned Corvidae Son dedicating himself to fighting the Ruinous Powers in the future. It is also worth mentioning that his name, Revuel Arvida, has certain stylistic similarities to that of Azariah Vidya, Great Father of the Blood Ravens. This motto was also stated by the Thousand Son Mhotep whilst locked in combat with a daemon. The Blood Ravens' Rahe's Paradise outpost was discovered to be built upon the ruins of a previous Astartes structure, one that dated from "ten millennia ago". While no identification markings could be found upon it, a red-painted Astartes shoulder plate was excavated from these ruins. Additionally, these ancient Astartes were revealed to have allied themselves with Eldar forces present upon the planet to defeat a great evil, and to have agreed to maintain stewardship over the world in order to thwart this evil should it return. Ten millenia ago references the birth of the Imperium, although the Thousand Sons were not the only Astartes Legion to wear red as their primary colour at this time, seeing as the Blood Angels continue to do so. During an incident on the planet Arcadia, Librarian Rhamah of the Blood Ravens suffered amnesia and fell in with the Prodigal Sons warband of Thousand Sons sorcerer-lord Ahzek Ahriman. Throughout this association Ahriman and his warband referred to Rhamah variously as "Son of Ahriman", "friend of Ahriman" and as a "lost brother". Furthermore, when Rhamah locates an ancient Eldar tome - called the Un-Founding - that bears the crest of the Blood Ravens upon its cover, Ahriman concedes that he once owned a copy of the book and that another one was in the possession of Azariah Vidya (of whom Ahriman states, "I knew Vidya better than you might expect"). He further states to Rhamah "We are not so different, you and I. We were not always so different...there was a time, long ago, before the Change, when the Thousand Sons of Magnus wore the blood-red armour of their Primarch.
Sorry to fly off track here, but SERIOUSLY?!!!? Perhaps this is just common knowledge or some such and I'm being a newb still trying to uncover the mysteries of my favored Thousand Sons, but this just slid through 3 or 4 posts with no one else reeling at this epiphany? I've been playing DoW forEVER and absolutely LOATHING the Blood Ravens (aside from the fact they are under suspicion from their own side. That's funny for a Space Marine. lol) and now I find out they are the long lost brothers of the Thousand Sons!!? Soooooooo juicy. I must have moar. @__@
-stumbles off into the shadows, frothing at the mouth and mumbling something about psykers and ravens-
Also. I completely buy it for all of the above reasons. That. is. NUTS. XD And yeah, the Blood Ravens, I always assumed, we're chiefly under suspicion because of how secretive they were being. Particularly in regards to how they have no origins. This has to irk the Proud like Guillimans Smurfs. lol
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/26 01:15:10
"Well there's something I've been meaning to tell you about the college on the edge of the town. No one should ever go there. You know it's bad, bad, bad. It gets worse every school year, but man those freaking teachers are raaaaad! Yea-YEAH-yeah yeah." -Babycakes - China, Il.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/559359.page#6178253 <--Link to my CSM Army lists.
Alright, thanks for the clarification. And yeah, I recall Dan Abnett being credited as having done some writing for Dark Heresy. Mostly fleshing out the Calixis sector, I think?
Black Library specifically went to Abnett when they were making Dark Heresy to get his thoughts on everything. Once he looked over everything he went to them saying that he wanted to write a book about it and thus Eisenhorn was created.
As far as Interrogators being a rank, it is used for a higher henchman who is able to take missions on their own independent of the Inquisitor but still under that Inquisitor. Abnett was the one to start it but people started to follow suit.
On Inquisitor Lords, you were right, I went to look it up on the Lexicanum to see what it would say on Inquisitorial rankings and it said this: Inquisitor Lord - Also known as Lord Inquisitors or High Inquisitors, Inquisitor Lords exist to help maintain the integrity of the organisation, and to watch over and guide its members. The title is a recognition of an Inquisitor's power and influence rather than an absolute rank, and is more a formalisation of a position enjoyed by the Inquisitor rather than an actual promotion. Promotion to the ranks of Inquisitor Lord is by invitation only; an Inquisitor must be nominated by an existing Lord and have his nomination approved by two others. It is an honour that is only extended to those that have proven their courage, ability, loyalty and integrity numerous times. Although the rank of Inquisitor Lord in itself brings no temporal authority, it is likely that such a respected and influential Inquisitor will have some measure of control over resources within the Inquisition or his Ordo and his control of those resources will give him some measure of authority over Inquisitors who wish to use them. For example a Lord Inquisitor may oversee the activities of all Inquisitors operating in the region covered by a regional Conclave; or he may orchestrate and monitor their activities of Inquisitors who are part of an Ordo or Caba.
Psienesis wrote: Per "Space Marine", the canon ending is that the Blood Ravens purge their Chapter of its heretical elements and are then sent on a Penitent Crusade, changing their battle-cry to "None shall find us wanting!".
And... no. Just because you have "rebuilt" your Chapter and supposedly purged it of all heretical taint... it's a really good idea if some outside observers keep an eye on you, just in case, because you lot fethed up real bad in the very recent past, and we're not going to let that happen again.
Personally, I think the 1KS link is weak... and rather fail-sauce, because of the BR history. If they are a 1KS Successor, their actions indicate a very strong propensity for falling to heresy.
The Thousand Sons link is probably the most convincing for me. For these reasons:
The Blood Ravens are established to have enough similarities in battle doctrine (i.e. high number of psykers and the use thereof) to the Thousand Sons that it has been noted by observers within the fiction itself.
The pre-Heresy heraldry of the Thousand Sons is similar to the heraldry of the Blood Ravens; specifically the Thousand Sons Corvidae cult, who as well as wearing the red armour of all Thousand Sons, also sport a black raven insignia
The psyker Kallista Eris had a vision concerning the fate of the Thousand Sons shortly before the Burning of Prospero. Among other things she mentioned "The Ravens. I see them too. The lost sons and a Raven of blood. They cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied!"
The Blood Ravens' motto "Knowledge is power" was uttered by the Thousand Son Corvidae member Revuel Arvida upon his decision to dedicate himself to discovering the true causes of his Legion's destruction and combat them. Arvida was a member of the fleet-elements of the Thousand Sons who were sent into hiding by Magnus the Red prior to the Space Wolves' attack upon the Legion and therefore did not fall to Chaos during the Burning of Prospero. Thus we have a non-Chaos aligned Corvidae Son dedicating himself to fighting the Ruinous Powers in the future. It is also worth mentioning that his name, Revuel Arvida, has certain stylistic similarities to that of Azariah Vidya, Great Father of the Blood Ravens. This motto was also stated by the Thousand Son Mhotep whilst locked in combat with a daemon.
The Blood Ravens' Rahe's Paradise outpost was discovered to be built upon the ruins of a previous Astartes structure, one that dated from "ten millennia ago". While no identification markings could be found upon it, a red-painted Astartes shoulder plate was excavated from these ruins. Additionally, these ancient Astartes were revealed to have allied themselves with Eldar forces present upon the planet to defeat a great evil, and to have agreed to maintain stewardship over the world in order to thwart this evil should it return. Ten millenia ago references the birth of the Imperium, although the Thousand Sons were not the only Astartes Legion to wear red as their primary colour at this time, seeing as the Blood Angels continue to do so.
During an incident on the planet Arcadia, Librarian Rhamah of the Blood Ravens suffered amnesia and fell in with the Prodigal Sons warband of Thousand Sons sorcerer-lord Ahzek Ahriman. Throughout this association Ahriman and his warband referred to Rhamah variously as "Son of Ahriman", "friend of Ahriman" and as a "lost brother". Furthermore, when Rhamah locates an ancient Eldar tome - called the Un-Founding - that bears the crest of the Blood Ravens upon its cover, Ahriman concedes that he once owned a copy of the book and that another one was in the possession of Azariah Vidya (of whom Ahriman states, "I knew Vidya better than you might expect"). He further states to Rhamah "We are not so different, you and I. We were not always so different...there was a time, long ago, before the Change, when the Thousand Sons of Magnus wore the blood-red armour of their Primarch.
Sorry to fly off track here, but SERIOUSLY?!!!? Perhaps this is just common knowledge or some such and I'm being a newb still trying to uncover the mysteries of my favored Thousand Sons, but this just slid through 3 or 4 posts with no one else reeling at this epiphany? I've been playing DoW forEVER and absolutely LOATHING the Blood Ravens (aside from the fact they are under suspicion from their own side. That's funny for a Space Marine. lol) and now I find out they are the long lost brothers of the Thousand Sons!!? Soooooooo juicy. I must have moar. @__@
-stumbles off into the shadows, frothing at the mouth and mumbling something about psykers and ravens-
Also. I completely buy it for all of the above reasons. That. is. NUTS. XD And yeah, the Blood Ravens, I always assumed, we're chiefly under suspicion because of how secretive they were being. Particularly in regards to how they have no origins. This has to irk the Proud like Guillimans Smurfs. lol
The high possibility that the Blood Ravens are indeed loyalist Thousand Sons are the reason why the Blood Ravens are my favorite chapter aside from the Space Wolves (Well aside from the GK who are my favorite faction with the Ordo Malleus but I consider GK to be apart of the Inquisition and not of the Adeptus Astartes)
Psienesis wrote: Per "Space Marine", the canon ending is that the Blood Ravens purge their Chapter of its heretical elements and are then sent on a Penitent Crusade, changing their battle-cry to "None shall find us wanting!".
And... no. Just because you have "rebuilt" your Chapter and supposedly purged it of all heretical taint... it's a really good idea if some outside observers keep an eye on you, just in case, because you lot fethed up real bad in the very recent past, and we're not going to let that happen again.
Personally, I think the 1KS link is weak... and rather fail-sauce, because of the BR history. If they are a 1KS Successor, their actions indicate a very strong propensity for falling to heresy.
The Thousand Sons link is probably the most convincing for me. For these reasons:
The Blood Ravens are established to have enough similarities in battle doctrine (i.e. high number of psykers and the use thereof) to the Thousand Sons that it has been noted by observers within the fiction itself.
The pre-Heresy heraldry of the Thousand Sons is similar to the heraldry of the Blood Ravens; specifically the Thousand Sons Corvidae cult, who as well as wearing the red armour of all Thousand Sons, also sport a black raven insignia
The psyker Kallista Eris had a vision concerning the fate of the Thousand Sons shortly before the Burning of Prospero. Among other things she mentioned "The Ravens. I see them too. The lost sons and a Raven of blood. They cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied!"
The Blood Ravens' motto "Knowledge is power" was uttered by the Thousand Son Corvidae member Revuel Arvida upon his decision to dedicate himself to discovering the true causes of his Legion's destruction and combat them. Arvida was a member of the fleet-elements of the Thousand Sons who were sent into hiding by Magnus the Red prior to the Space Wolves' attack upon the Legion and therefore did not fall to Chaos during the Burning of Prospero. Thus we have a non-Chaos aligned Corvidae Son dedicating himself to fighting the Ruinous Powers in the future. It is also worth mentioning that his name, Revuel Arvida, has certain stylistic similarities to that of Azariah Vidya, Great Father of the Blood Ravens. This motto was also stated by the Thousand Son Mhotep whilst locked in combat with a daemon.
The Blood Ravens' Rahe's Paradise outpost was discovered to be built upon the ruins of a previous Astartes structure, one that dated from "ten millennia ago". While no identification markings could be found upon it, a red-painted Astartes shoulder plate was excavated from these ruins. Additionally, these ancient Astartes were revealed to have allied themselves with Eldar forces present upon the planet to defeat a great evil, and to have agreed to maintain stewardship over the world in order to thwart this evil should it return. Ten millenia ago references the birth of the Imperium, although the Thousand Sons were not the only Astartes Legion to wear red as their primary colour at this time, seeing as the Blood Angels continue to do so.
During an incident on the planet Arcadia, Librarian Rhamah of the Blood Ravens suffered amnesia and fell in with the Prodigal Sons warband of Thousand Sons sorcerer-lord Ahzek Ahriman. Throughout this association Ahriman and his warband referred to Rhamah variously as "Son of Ahriman", "friend of Ahriman" and as a "lost brother". Furthermore, when Rhamah locates an ancient Eldar tome - called the Un-Founding - that bears the crest of the Blood Ravens upon its cover, Ahriman concedes that he once owned a copy of the book and that another one was in the possession of Azariah Vidya (of whom Ahriman states, "I knew Vidya better than you might expect"). He further states to Rhamah "We are not so different, you and I. We were not always so different...there was a time, long ago, before the Change, when the Thousand Sons of Magnus wore the blood-red armour of their Primarch.
Sorry to fly off track here, but SERIOUSLY?!!!? Perhaps this is just common knowledge or some such and I'm being a newb still trying to uncover the mysteries of my favored Thousand Sons, but this just slid through 3 or 4 posts with no one else reeling at this epiphany? I've been playing DoW forEVER and absolutely LOATHING the Blood Ravens (aside from the fact they are under suspicion from their own side. That's funny for a Space Marine. lol) and now I find out they are the long lost brothers of the Thousand Sons!!? Soooooooo juicy. I must have moar. @__@
-stumbles off into the shadows, frothing at the mouth and mumbling something about psykers and ravens-
Also. I completely buy it for all of the above reasons. That. is. NUTS. XD And yeah, the Blood Ravens, I always assumed, we're chiefly under suspicion because of how secretive they were being. Particularly in regards to how they have no origins. This has to irk the Proud like Guillimans Smurfs. lol
The high possibility that the Blood Ravens are indeed loyalist Thousand Sons are the reason why the Blood Ravens are my favorite chapter aside from the Space Wolves (Well aside from the GK who are my favorite faction with the Ordo Malleus but I consider GK to be apart of the Inquisition and not of the Adeptus Astartes)
So if they are loyalist 1000 sons, how did they solve the instabillity in their geneseed? something Magnus even couldn't fix.
Sorry for going off topic.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/26 03:26:40
Envihon wrote:As far as Interrogators being a rank, it is used for a higher henchman who is able to take missions on their own independent of the Inquisitor but still under that Inquisitor. Abnett was the one to start it but people started to follow suit.
That fits to what I've read in GW's sources, too:
"[...] On the whole, Inquisitors will take of individuals that are free-thinking, possessed of will power and determination and unflinching principles. If they find a suitable person, they will become part of the Inquisitor's retinue, perhaps serving in a minor capacity while the Inquisitor continues their evaluation. Those who prove their worth working with the Inquisitor will then be taken into their master's or mistress' greater confidence.
Over several years, the apprentice will learn what they can of the Inquisitor's knowledge, and in time will take on many duties. Some Inquisitors refer to these semi-qualified individuals as Interrogators, though they are also known as Novitiates, Neophytes or Approbators. Such individuals may untertake missions on their own, or control operations in concert with the Inquisitor, but they are still subordinate until their master or mistress fully invests them." - Thorian Sourcebook
"The Inquisitor is hardy and wise, having survived long enough to begin training likely prospects to follow in his footsteps. Typically having been active in the field for over a century, an Inquisitor only accepts trainee Inquisitors once he is certain he has mastered the skills of his calling. His charges hang on his every word, hoping that some day they will attain the status of their mentor. All aspiring Inquisitors must start at the lowly rank of Explicator, where they learn how to extract information using physical pain and the tools of the torturer - after all, they are not known as the Inquisition for nothing. Those few who survive to make the rank of Interrogator are both capable and strong, for only the most skilful survive the duty of accompanying their mentor on the field of battle." - 3E C:WH
Envihon wrote:On Inquisitor Lords, you were right, I went to look it up on the Lexicanum to see what it would say on Inquisitorial rankings and it said this: [...]
No, no, no - I wasn't "right". 40k fluff doesn't work like that - I just didn't knew there was this other interpretation. Abnett's interpretation is just as valid as what GW's own sources say - it's just up to us to individually pick the one version we prefer. Or even come up with one ourselves. Either way, there is very little in 40k that is truly "written in stone", especially when it comes to this level of detail.
People need to stop turning to Lexicanum for "confirmation". The supposed canon it propagates is a lie; its only use is as an index of sorts, since (usually) it is pretty reliable at pointing the reader towards which source discusses which subject.
I've not read them myself, but are there any others at all aside from the Ravenor and Eisenhorn?
... oh, and the old Jaq Draco "Inquisitor" book. I actually did read that one, and thought it was pretty cool. This one I can recommend.
I also have the "Inquisition Illustrated Guide", which acts like a sort of companion lexicon on Inquisition stuff with a ~50-50 split between Codex fluff and Dan Abnett's novels, all ordered alphabetically with neat, short explanations.
Psienesis wrote: Per "Space Marine", the canon ending is that the Blood Ravens purge their Chapter of its heretical elements and are then sent on a Penitent Crusade, changing their battle-cry to "None shall find us wanting!".
And... no. Just because you have "rebuilt" your Chapter and supposedly purged it of all heretical taint... it's a really good idea if some outside observers keep an eye on you, just in case, because you lot fethed up real bad in the very recent past, and we're not going to let that happen again.
Personally, I think the 1KS link is weak... and rather fail-sauce, because of the BR history. If they are a 1KS Successor, their actions indicate a very strong propensity for falling to heresy.
The Thousand Sons link is probably the most convincing for me. For these reasons:
The Blood Ravens are established to have enough similarities in battle doctrine (i.e. high number of psykers and the use thereof) to the Thousand Sons that it has been noted by observers within the fiction itself.
The pre-Heresy heraldry of the Thousand Sons is similar to the heraldry of the Blood Ravens; specifically the Thousand Sons Corvidae cult, who as well as wearing the red armour of all Thousand Sons, also sport a black raven insignia
The psyker Kallista Eris had a vision concerning the fate of the Thousand Sons shortly before the Burning of Prospero. Among other things she mentioned "The Ravens. I see them too. The lost sons and a Raven of blood. They cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied!"
The Blood Ravens' motto "Knowledge is power" was uttered by the Thousand Son Corvidae member Revuel Arvida upon his decision to dedicate himself to discovering the true causes of his Legion's destruction and combat them. Arvida was a member of the fleet-elements of the Thousand Sons who were sent into hiding by Magnus the Red prior to the Space Wolves' attack upon the Legion and therefore did not fall to Chaos during the Burning of Prospero. Thus we have a non-Chaos aligned Corvidae Son dedicating himself to fighting the Ruinous Powers in the future. It is also worth mentioning that his name, Revuel Arvida, has certain stylistic similarities to that of Azariah Vidya, Great Father of the Blood Ravens. This motto was also stated by the Thousand Son Mhotep whilst locked in combat with a daemon.
The Blood Ravens' Rahe's Paradise outpost was discovered to be built upon the ruins of a previous Astartes structure, one that dated from "ten millennia ago". While no identification markings could be found upon it, a red-painted Astartes shoulder plate was excavated from these ruins. Additionally, these ancient Astartes were revealed to have allied themselves with Eldar forces present upon the planet to defeat a great evil, and to have agreed to maintain stewardship over the world in order to thwart this evil should it return. Ten millenia ago references the birth of the Imperium, although the Thousand Sons were not the only Astartes Legion to wear red as their primary colour at this time, seeing as the Blood Angels continue to do so.
During an incident on the planet Arcadia, Librarian Rhamah of the Blood Ravens suffered amnesia and fell in with the Prodigal Sons warband of Thousand Sons sorcerer-lord Ahzek Ahriman. Throughout this association Ahriman and his warband referred to Rhamah variously as "Son of Ahriman", "friend of Ahriman" and as a "lost brother". Furthermore, when Rhamah locates an ancient Eldar tome - called the Un-Founding - that bears the crest of the Blood Ravens upon its cover, Ahriman concedes that he once owned a copy of the book and that another one was in the possession of Azariah Vidya (of whom Ahriman states, "I knew Vidya better than you might expect"). He further states to Rhamah "We are not so different, you and I. We were not always so different...there was a time, long ago, before the Change, when the Thousand Sons of Magnus wore the blood-red armour of their Primarch.
Sorry to fly off track here, but SERIOUSLY?!!!? Perhaps this is just common knowledge or some such and I'm being a newb still trying to uncover the mysteries of my favored Thousand Sons, but this just slid through 3 or 4 posts with no one else reeling at this epiphany? I've been playing DoW forEVER and absolutely LOATHING the Blood Ravens (aside from the fact they are under suspicion from their own side. That's funny for a Space Marine. lol) and now I find out they are the long lost brothers of the Thousand Sons!!? Soooooooo juicy. I must have moar. @__@
-stumbles off into the shadows, frothing at the mouth and mumbling something about psykers and ravens-
Also. I completely buy it for all of the above reasons. That. is. NUTS. XD And yeah, the Blood Ravens, I always assumed, we're chiefly under suspicion because of how secretive they were being. Particularly in regards to how they have no origins. This has to irk the Proud like Guillimans Smurfs. lol
The high possibility that the Blood Ravens are indeed loyalist Thousand Sons are the reason why the Blood Ravens are my favorite chapter aside from the Space Wolves (Well aside from the GK who are my favorite faction with the Ordo Malleus but I consider GK to be apart of the Inquisition and not of the Adeptus Astartes)
So if they are loyalist 1000 sons, how did they solve the instabillity in their geneseed? something Magnus even couldn't fix.
Sorry for going off topic.
the gene seed mutation problem is my big question re blood ravens too. my guess? that the fleshchange in the 10k sons was tzeetch screwing with the 10k sons as part of his greater plot, and once he had the 10k sons FIRMLY in hand, via the rubric, there as no need to maintain. it.
it's also possiable that time testing, luck and restrictions on librarians (the 10k sons basicly had a very "anything goes" policy) stablized the BRs geneseed
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Lynata wrote: I've not read them myself, but are there any others at all aside from the Ravenor and Eisenhorn?
... oh, and the old Jaq Draco "Inquisitor" book. I actually did read that one, and thought it was pretty cool. This one I can recommend.
I also have the "Inquisition Illustrated Guide", which acts like a sort of companion lexicon on Inquisition stuff with a ~50-50 split between Codex fluff and Dan Abnett's novels, all ordered alphabetically with neat, short explanations.
I have read both the Eisenhorn Omnibus and the Ravenor Omnibus, both which are really good and I highly recommend me. Abnett is one of my more favored authors in Black Library. Then you do have Jaq Draco, which I still need to read. You can consider the GK to be apart of the Inquisition so that means the Grey Knights Omnibus would be here as well, although, admittedly, the third book in that doesn't have much to do with Inquisition. Then you have The Emperor's Gift which is about the Grey Knights and the Inquisition's part in the Armageddon Wars and shows explicitly why the Space Wolves hate the Inquisition and the Grey Knights so much. Also, awesome little bit of info, I won't spoil it right now but The Emperor's Gift is connected to Ravenor in an awesome way which made me nerdgasm just a little bit.
Psienesis wrote: Per "Space Marine", the canon ending is that the Blood Ravens purge their Chapter of its heretical elements and are then sent on a Penitent Crusade, changing their battle-cry to "None shall find us wanting!".
And... no. Just because you have "rebuilt" your Chapter and supposedly purged it of all heretical taint... it's a really good idea if some outside observers keep an eye on you, just in case, because you lot fethed up real bad in the very recent past, and we're not going to let that happen again.
Personally, I think the 1KS link is weak... and rather fail-sauce, because of the BR history. If they are a 1KS Successor, their actions indicate a very strong propensity for falling to heresy.
The Thousand Sons link is probably the most convincing for me. For these reasons:
The Blood Ravens are established to have enough similarities in battle doctrine (i.e. high number of psykers and the use thereof) to the Thousand Sons that it has been noted by observers within the fiction itself.
The pre-Heresy heraldry of the Thousand Sons is similar to the heraldry of the Blood Ravens; specifically the Thousand Sons Corvidae cult, who as well as wearing the red armour of all Thousand Sons, also sport a black raven insignia
The psyker Kallista Eris had a vision concerning the fate of the Thousand Sons shortly before the Burning of Prospero. Among other things she mentioned "The Ravens. I see them too. The lost sons and a Raven of blood. They cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied!"
The Blood Ravens' motto "Knowledge is power" was uttered by the Thousand Son Corvidae member Revuel Arvida upon his decision to dedicate himself to discovering the true causes of his Legion's destruction and combat them. Arvida was a member of the fleet-elements of the Thousand Sons who were sent into hiding by Magnus the Red prior to the Space Wolves' attack upon the Legion and therefore did not fall to Chaos during the Burning of Prospero. Thus we have a non-Chaos aligned Corvidae Son dedicating himself to fighting the Ruinous Powers in the future. It is also worth mentioning that his name, Revuel Arvida, has certain stylistic similarities to that of Azariah Vidya, Great Father of the Blood Ravens. This motto was also stated by the Thousand Son Mhotep whilst locked in combat with a daemon.
The Blood Ravens' Rahe's Paradise outpost was discovered to be built upon the ruins of a previous Astartes structure, one that dated from "ten millennia ago". While no identification markings could be found upon it, a red-painted Astartes shoulder plate was excavated from these ruins. Additionally, these ancient Astartes were revealed to have allied themselves with Eldar forces present upon the planet to defeat a great evil, and to have agreed to maintain stewardship over the world in order to thwart this evil should it return. Ten millenia ago references the birth of the Imperium, although the Thousand Sons were not the only Astartes Legion to wear red as their primary colour at this time, seeing as the Blood Angels continue to do so.
During an incident on the planet Arcadia, Librarian Rhamah of the Blood Ravens suffered amnesia and fell in with the Prodigal Sons warband of Thousand Sons sorcerer-lord Ahzek Ahriman. Throughout this association Ahriman and his warband referred to Rhamah variously as "Son of Ahriman", "friend of Ahriman" and as a "lost brother". Furthermore, when Rhamah locates an ancient Eldar tome - called the Un-Founding - that bears the crest of the Blood Ravens upon its cover, Ahriman concedes that he once owned a copy of the book and that another one was in the possession of Azariah Vidya (of whom Ahriman states, "I knew Vidya better than you might expect"). He further states to Rhamah "We are not so different, you and I. We were not always so different...there was a time, long ago, before the Change, when the Thousand Sons of Magnus wore the blood-red armour of their Primarch.
Sorry to fly off track here, but SERIOUSLY?!!!? Perhaps this is just common knowledge or some such and I'm being a newb still trying to uncover the mysteries of my favored Thousand Sons, but this just slid through 3 or 4 posts with no one else reeling at this epiphany? I've been playing DoW forEVER and absolutely LOATHING the Blood Ravens (aside from the fact they are under suspicion from their own side. That's funny for a Space Marine. lol) and now I find out they are the long lost brothers of the Thousand Sons!!? Soooooooo juicy. I must have moar. @__@
-stumbles off into the shadows, frothing at the mouth and mumbling something about psykers and ravens-
Also. I completely buy it for all of the above reasons. That. is. NUTS. XD And yeah, the Blood Ravens, I always assumed, we're chiefly under suspicion because of how secretive they were being. Particularly in regards to how they have no origins. This has to irk the Proud like Guillimans Smurfs. lol
The high possibility that the Blood Ravens are indeed loyalist Thousand Sons are the reason why the Blood Ravens are my favorite chapter aside from the Space Wolves (Well aside from the GK who are my favorite faction with the Ordo Malleus but I consider GK to be apart of the Inquisition and not of the Adeptus Astartes)
So if they are loyalist 1000 sons, how did they solve the instabillity in their geneseed? something Magnus even couldn't fix.
Sorry for going off topic.
the gene seed mutation problem is my big question re blood ravens too. my guess? that the fleshchange in the 10k sons was tzeetch screwing with the 10k sons as part of his greater plot, and once he had the 10k sons FIRMLY in hand, via the rubric, there as no need to maintain. it.
it's also possiable that time testing, luck and restrictions on librarians (the 10k sons basicly had a very "anything goes" policy) stablized the BRs geneseed
That probably is the biggest thorn in the Blood Ravens...or is it? They had a huge chunk of their chapter fall to Chaos including the Chapter Master. Also, if you go into the process of becoming a Blood Raven and you weren't a psyker, there is a good chance that you will come out as one. The gene-seed has been analyzed several times and no corruption has been found. It could of very well been Tzeentch doing his thing as well. If you read Thousand Sons in the Horus Heresy series, you find out that the Chaos gods wanted him to start the rebellion, they were his first choice but he always resisted and that is why they turned to Horus first. Chaos always had their eye on Magnus which is why his story is so tragic. Tzeentch being Tzeentch could have easily manipulated the Thousand Sons and only made it look like it was their gene-seed. You have to remember that the Thousand Sons had "familiars" from the warp that shrunk away in the presence of people like the Space Wolves showing that these were more than likely daemons able to manipulate their partner so it wouldn't of even needed to manipulate the gene seed proper in order to corrupt them. Magnus didn't even really manipulate the gene-seed but went into the warp to make a deal with daemons further evidence that Tzeentch might not even needed the gene-seed.
So if they are loyalist 1000 sons, how did they solve the instabillity in their geneseed? something Magnus even couldn't fix.
Because they're not.
There's so many hints, as listed in this thread, pushing people to think that the BR are a Loyalist version of the Thousand Sons that it only makes sense to be something other than the obvious.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
So if they are loyalist 1000 sons, how did they solve the instabillity in their geneseed? something Magnus even couldn't fix.
Because they're not.
There's so many hints, as listed in this thread, pushing people to think that the BR are a Loyalist version of the Thousand Sons that it only makes sense to be something other than the obvious.
Out of curiosity, then where do you think the Blood Ravens originate despite the various hinting in all the books concerning both them and the Thousand Sons? I mean the one thing struck me the most was that vision told of them on Prospero and the fact the faction of Thousand Sons that escaped the Burning of Prospero was ones belonging to the Corvidae cult. Why all the hints only to be a huge misdirection? Even in writing the Blood Ravens Omnibus, C.S. Goto was told by GW to make several hints concerning the chapters origins which I listed above. I just don't think they would waste all this time and energy sowing all these various nudges in that direction for the simple fact of misdirection unless they were planning a huge gotcha moment which I doubt would happen seeing as the DoW series is done with and they were never a major faction outside the games.
Psienesis wrote: Statistics are on Ultramarines, considering that 60% of all current Chapters are UM descendants.
40% is nothing to sneeze at. On top of that, remember that before 60% of the Chapters where Ultramarines, over half of the Astartes total became Chaos Marines. So that 60% shrinks considerably when you add the other "lost" half of their brotherhood. The Blood Ravens could still be Thousand Sons remnants. And even if it wasn't written that way in Ultramarine context, in the context of the Blood Ravens themselves, that is how they seem to be written and more importantly how GWwants to write them. So what does it mean for a fan to tell GW they're wrong? Not much, it turns out because GW's going to go "Ok," and keep on doing whatever they want to do.
...which is screwing Chaos over. -mumble-grumble-rumble-
"Well there's something I've been meaning to tell you about the college on the edge of the town. No one should ever go there. You know it's bad, bad, bad. It gets worse every school year, but man those freaking teachers are raaaaad! Yea-YEAH-yeah yeah." -Babycakes - China, Il.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/559359.page#6178253 <--Link to my CSM Army lists.
BR are definitely not Loyalist Thousand Sons, there's about six thousand years of time between the end of the Heresy and the founding of the Blood Ravens Chapter (suspected M36 or M37). They *might* have 1KS geneseed, but they are not founded by loyalists of the Thousand Sons, as there would not have been any of those just sitting around in M36 to found the Chapter.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Psienesis wrote: BR are definitely not Loyalist Thousand Sons, there's about six thousand years of time between the end of the Heresy and the founding of the Blood Ravens Chapter (suspected M36 or M37). They *might* have 1KS geneseed, but they are not founded by loyalists of the Thousand Sons, as there would not have been any of those just sitting around in M36 to found the Chapter.
What is your source for them being founded in M36? As far as I know the whole schtick with blood ravens is that they have no clue when their chapter was founded, and have no traces to their history. Please show us your source good sir.
The Index Astartes entry that GW had for them on the site time ago mentioned that M36 is the earliest known record of the Chapter's existence, from records possessed by other Imperial bodies, but M37 is the first entry the Chapter itself has in its records.
You'll need to track down a pdf copy from somewhere, though, as GW no longer hosts it.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Psienesis wrote: The Index Astartes entry that GW had for them on the site time ago mentioned that M36 is the earliest known record of the Chapter's existence, from records possessed by other Imperial bodies, but M37 is the first entry the Chapter itself has in its records.
You'll need to track down a pdf copy from somewhere, though, as GW no longer hosts it.
Earliest known RECORD. That doesn't indicate in the least bit what their founding was, if you're going to cite things as fact at least make sure the documents match up to what you're saying.
The Chapter's own records start in M37. References from other Imperial organizations start in M36.
Prior to that? Completely absent from all Imperial records.
So M36 is its earliest-accepted era of Founding. The "liberal" argument, that is, the one that gives the Blood Ravens the most wiggle room, puts their founding sometime in M36, the "conservative" argument puts it in M37, as that is the earliest record that exists in the Chapter's own hands, and is the most "definitive" proof of their founding.
That gives you the 13th through the 22nd Foundings as the origins of the Blood Ravens. Second Founding, they ain't.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Psienesis wrote: The Chapter's own records start in M37. References from other Imperial organizations start in M36.
Prior to that? Completely absent from all Imperial records.
So M36 is its earliest-accepted era of Founding. The "liberal" argument, that is, the one that gives the Blood Ravens the most wiggle room, puts their founding sometime in M36, the "conservative" argument puts it in M37, as that is the earliest record that exists in the Chapter's own hands, and is the most "definitive" proof of their founding.
That gives you the 13th through the 22nd Foundings as the origins of the Blood Ravens. Second Founding, they ain't.
Quick aside about them being an Ultramarines chapter, that is unlikely because of the high deviation they have from the Codex Astartes to the point where they have Librarians as Chapter Masters so they not only have too many Librarians due to the fact that the Blood Ravens gene seeds turns ordinary people into psykers but there is a high respect for Librarians in general which as a culture shares nothing with the Ultramarines. As far as loyalists go, it is more likely to Blood Angels but the culture that matches up the most is that of the Thousand Sons.
To me this is where the Inquisition comes into play to the point where I am willing to place a good bet that the Inquisition or someone else concerned with the loyalist Legions survival deliberately destroyed the records of the origins of the Blood Ravens in order to protect them from total annihilation. This here: "The Blood Ravens' motto "Knowledge is power" was uttered by the Thousand Son Corvidae member Revuel Arvida upon his decision to dedicate himself to discovering the true causes of his Legion's destruction and combat them. Arvida was a member of the fleet-elements of the Thousand Sons who were sent into hiding by Magnus the Red prior to the Space Wolves' attack upon the Legion and therefore did not fall to Chaos during the Burning of Prospero. Thus we have a non-Chaos aligned Corvidae Son dedicating himself to fighting the Ruinous Powers in the future. It is also worth mentioning that his name, Revuel Arvida, has certain stylistic similarities to that of Azariah Vidya, Great Father of the Blood Ravens. This motto was also stated by the Thousand Son Mhotep whilst locked in combat with a daemon. " shows a possible beginning for the Blood Ravens. Arvida could of erased the chapter foundings himself or even had the Inquisition do it which is another reason why the Inquisition keeps an eye on the Blood Ravens, to make sure they never know their true origins because if they are truly the last of the Loyalist Thousand Sons, that information would be worse than if the chapter never truly knows. For one thing, the Space Wolves would come after them and make sure they are destroyed. Ahriman would seek to have them join with their "brothers" and some probably would. In the least we would at least get another chapter obsessing over their chaos fallen brethren.
Just because the records aren't there, is not a reason to doubt the Thousand Sons connection. That means someone is keeping the information from them. I think the Inquisition already knows and refuses to let them know letting them go on and do their relic collecting and only interfering when they get close to the answer. The origins of the Blood Ravens isn't lost because nothing like that just gets lost, especially in the ritualistic Adeptus Astartes. No, the whole not knowing their origins reeks of deliberately destroyed or withheld information.
Psienesis wrote: The Chapter's own records start in M37. References from other Imperial organizations start in M36.
Prior to that? Completely absent from all Imperial records.
So M36 is its earliest-accepted era of Founding. The "liberal" argument, that is, the one that gives the Blood Ravens the most wiggle room, puts their founding sometime in M36, the "conservative" argument puts it in M37, as that is the earliest record that exists in the Chapter's own hands, and is the most "definitive" proof of their founding.
That gives you the 13th through the 22nd Foundings as the origins of the Blood Ravens. Second Founding, they ain't.
The "liberal" arguement is the one that you're making. The earliest known records have NOTHING to do with the chapters founding. There are many instances of chapters just "turning up" without imperial records of them. You need to understand that in 40k you have worlds that haven't had imperial contact in 10,000 years. This is the case for one of the dark angels successors as well called the consecrators. There is no imperial record of them until m40, and they showed up with all sorts of ancient stuff from Caliban, and it is indicated pretty clearly that they're not founded in m40
Allow me to put one more pin in the Thousand Sons/Blood Ravens discussion.
Remember that when talking about the Thousand Sons, we are talking about the most talented psykers of all the legions. On top of that, by that virtue, they are also the most closely tied Legion to the Warp. I would argue that they are the only Chaos Legion that actively rebels against Chaos itself, by the direction of Magnus and Ahriman both. Neither of them want to serve Tzeentch, and yet they are saturated in his blessings, whether they want it or not.
This brings me to the point "Time has no meaning in the Warp." Now, this may be pointless because the loyalist Thousand Sons element never entered the Warp, but let's say they did after they left Prospero. That's reasonable, they tried to warp jump away from the conflict.
Where did they go? Or better yet, when did they go?
So yeah, records are great, but not the be-all end-all when those records can be altered and are altered willingly by organizations like the Inquisition.
"Well there's something I've been meaning to tell you about the college on the edge of the town. No one should ever go there. You know it's bad, bad, bad. It gets worse every school year, but man those freaking teachers are raaaaad! Yea-YEAH-yeah yeah." -Babycakes - China, Il.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/559359.page#6178253 <--Link to my CSM Army lists.
TheRedWingArmada wrote: Allow me to put one more pin in the Thousand Sons/Blood Ravens discussion.
Remember that when talking about the Thousand Sons, we are talking about the most talented psykers of all the legions. On top of that, by that virtue, they are also the most closely tied Legion to the Warp. I would argue that they are the only Chaos Legion that actively rebels against Chaos itself, by the direction of Magnus and Ahriman both. Neither of them want to serve Tzeentch, and yet they are saturated in his blessings, whether they want it or not.
This brings me to the point "Time has no meaning in the Warp." Now, this may be pointless because the loyalist Thousand Sons element never entered the Warp, but let's say they did after they left Prospero. That's reasonable, they tried to warp jump away from the conflict.
Where did they go? Or better yet, when did they go?
So yeah, records are great, but not the be-all end-all when those records can be altered and are altered willingly by organizations like the Inquisition.
