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I have never seen someone so desperate to avoid saying "oops, I made a mistake".

Then again this is someone who posts paranoid fantasies about FW players showing up at his house and threatening to murder his family if he doesn't play against their titan in a 500 point game...

 EVIL INC wrote:

 EVIL INC wrote:
I refer you to page 33 and 34 of the main rulebook and page 31 of the guard codex.

the passages detailing the rules on these pages support my statement. if you have an issue with that, contact GW and tell them that they misprinted the books.

 EVIL INC wrote:
the passages detailing the rules on these pages support my statement. if you have an issue with that, contact GW and tell them that they misprinted the books.

No they don't. Let's see what you said:

Remember that most of the ord pie plate shooters have a min range as well as a max. Just get close enough that he cant even target you with it.

Since then you've just been pretending that you're talking about not being allowed to place the template over friendly units and making up ridiculous straw men to argue against.

 EVIL INC wrote:

 Archer wrote:
@ EVIL INC I am not sure Peregrine indicated you could target your own troops with Barrage weapons. He simply indicated your comments about minimum range were incorrect.

page 31, guard codex states that the MoO does indeed deviate even if you roll a "hit. As has been suggested, there is at least 1 way to get a reroll, but even then, it will STILL deviate. I defer to Ailaros's mathhammer. it may be that my luck is so horrible that mine deviated more than average. Even while it may not be a inaccurate as presented, it IS still inaccurate enough that I don't bother taking him in my army.

Page34 of the rulebook states that there are penalties to firing at targets within your min range of a barrage. You treat it as indirect fire and you do not get to subtract your BS from the distance deviated if it deviates (I have yet to find this magic rule he is talking about that lets guard ignore this.). this means that you are safer from barrages within the min range than you are outside the min range. (took me a bit to find exactly where this was but I knew if I kept looking, I' find the passage that supported me and the page number to give) This combined with the next part...

page 33 of the rulebook states that you are unable to target a model such that any friendly models are also covered (I have yet to find this magic rules that he is talking about that allows guard barrages to ignore this). This combined with the previous point stands to reason that it is safer in amongst the enemy units than sitting out in the middle of the field trading shots with them. s you are space wolves, up close and personal is where you want to be against all of these tanks and artillery weapons. Despite what others are suggesting. As I have YET to see a guard player that lines all of their artillery up on the front line in front of everything else in the army (including the front av 14 russes, we will assume that they are being kept in the back (I know I keep mine as far from the front line as possible) that if you get within their min range you will essentially in amongst the rest of their army. at least close enough to it to make shooting at you almost as dangerous for him as it is for you.

THIS is why I read and re-read my codex and try to read as many other codexes as possible. For just such occasions as when someone else "forgets" their rules or as in this case, tries to pull one over on me assuming I have 'forgotten" my own rules.

If you feel that GW misprinted the books or are incorrect, take that issue up with them as it supports my statement. Likewise, you can continue with your strawman argument in order to deny that I was able to prove my point in black and white in the rulebook and codex.

The conversation so far:

EVIL: you can't shoot within a barrage weapon's minimum range
Everyone else: yes you can, you just don't subtract the unit's BS from the scatter distance.
EVIL: YOU CAN"T PLACE THE TEMPLATE OVER FRIENDLY MODELS
Everyone else: yes, we know that. But you said you can't fire within minimum range.
EVIL: YOU CANT PLACE THE TEMPLATE OVRE FRIENDLY MODELS PAGE 34 I WIN.
Everyone else: Nobody is saying you can. Please stop making straw men.
EVIL: PAGE 34 I WIN I WIN I WIN GW MISPRINTED YOUR BOOK.
Everyone else: we know how the rules work, but that's not what you said originally.
EVIL: YOU CANT PLACE THE TEMPLATE OVER FRIENDLY MODELS PAGE 34 I WIN.
Everyone else: *sigh* Look, here's a quote of you saying "you can't fire within minimum range".
EVIL: YOU CAN"t PLACE THE TEMPLATE OVER FRIENDLY MODELS PAGE 34 I WIN.
Everyone else: you're arguing with your imaginary friend here.
EVIL: I WILL DEFEND MYSELF AGAINST ANYONE WHO THREATENS TO MURDER MY FAMILY IF I DONT LET THEM PLACE THE TEMPLATE OVER FRIENDLY MODELS.
EVIL: PAGE 34 I WIN I WIN I WIN

So if I'm reading this thread correctly not even wave serpents are effective against ig pie plate spam?

Now that we see you know how to flame with lies as well as troll, I will try to get the thread back on track.....

page 31, guard codex states that the MoO does indeed deviate even if you roll a "hit. As has been suggested, there is at least 1 way to get a reroll, but even then, it will STILL deviate. I defer to Ailaros's mathhammer. it may be that my luck is so horrible that mine deviated more than average. Even while it may not be a inaccurate as presented, it IS still inaccurate enough that I don't bother taking him in my army.

Page34 of the rulebook states that there are penalties to firing at targets within your min range of a barrage. You treat it as indirect fire and you do not get to subtract your BS from the distance deviated if it deviates (I have yet to find this magic rule he is talking about that lets guard ignore this.). this means that you are safer from barrages within the min range than you are outside the min range. (took me a bit to find exactly where this was but I knew if I kept looking, I' find the passage that supported me and the page number to give) This combined with the next part...

page 33 of the rulebook states that you are unable to target a model such that any friendly models are also covered (I have yet to find this magic rules that he is talking about that allows guard barrages to ignore this). This combined with the previous point stands to reason that it is safer in amongst the enemy units than sitting out in the middle of the field trading shots with them. s you are space wolves, up close and personal is where you want to be against all of these tanks and artillery weapons. Despite what others are suggesting. As I have YET to see a guard player that lines all of their artillery up on the front line in front of everything else in the army (including the front av 14 russes, we will assume that they are being kept in the back (I know I keep mine as far from the front line as possible) that if you get within their min range you will essentially in amongst the rest of their army. at least close enough to it to make shooting at you almost as dangerous for him as it is for you.

THIS is why I read and re-read my codex and try to read as many other codexes as possible. For just such occasions as when someone else "forgets" their rules or as in this case, tries to pull one over on me assuming I have 'forgotten" my own rules.

Gitsmasher, So far, I have had varying degrees of luck against serpents. of course, I don't spam the pie plates in normal games and rarely in tourneys. I've had more luck taking serpents down with weight of fire than with single barrages. when I roll a 1 blast with my manticore and hit a serpent with it, they only need to make a single save. Meanwhile, it I hit a large unit of banshees with it, I might take out every one. This means I wll usually go for the banshees with my pie plate and the wave serpent with my autocannon heavy weapon squad or something else that will make you roll lots of saves instead of a single one.
Offhand, I would say that a pie plate spam army would be fairly easy pickings to an average tourney elder list. Of course, that's just my opinion. there are plenty of experts here who could give you a better answer.

 Gitsmasher wrote:
So if I'm reading this thread correctly not even wave serpents are effective against ig pie plate spam?

They are, because pie plate armies cannot put enough hits to score explode results or glance stuff to death.

 EVIL INC wrote:
Now that we see you know how to flame with lies as well as troll

You can call it lies all you want, but anyone who wants to can read your own words:

Remember that most of the ord pie plate shooters have a min range as well as a max. Just get close enough that he cant even target you with it.

I have never seen someone so terrified of admitting that they got the barrage rules wrong.

I will try to get the thread back on track.....

You mean you'll copy/paste your same old arguments against straw men (like "MoO doesn't scatter") that nobody is actually arguing? Yeah, that's a real productive use of this thread...

 Gitsmasher wrote:
So if I'm reading this thread correctly not even wave serpents are effective against ig pie plate spam?

in an attempt to get the thread back on to its original course.. =P

For me it has either been A not enough Serpents or B bad luck on my part. i only have 2 serpents and always seam to go second against IG players.

I think we're better off moving back to the original topic rather than harping on about who said what when and pointlessly quoting ourselves for no gain.

Maybe it will help if someone quotes the entire comment and highlights the important contended portion:

 EVIL INC wrote:
Master of orb is as inaccurate as can be. Safer for him to aim at you than it is for him to aim at your mate across the field. Remember that most of the ord pie plate shooters have a min range as well as a max. Just get close enough that he cant even target you with it.Then assault the crap out of him/her.

You are very clearly indicating that a unit within the minimum range of an ordnance weapon cannot be targeted.

According to my rule book, that is flatly false. However, if you can quote a page and reference that substantiates such a claim I would be very curious. I seriously doubt it, but perhaps we have missed something in the rules.

DoW

P.S. Honestly I don't think people would be making such a fuss about you admitting that you were wrong (or misspoke, or mistyped, or whatnot) if you didn't have such an incredibly supercilious signature and manner.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Whoops, in... after the MOD?

Anyway, the scariest thing for me as IG are, as previously mentioned, drop pods and outflankers who can melta/assault my precious Big Guns. The drop pods are especially nasty due to their damnable IGS.

Although now I suppose you should probably be wary of everyone and their mother taking a handy C:I Coteaz for his defensive reserves bubble.

To keep the thread on track...
1. As I originally said, the Moo is inaccurate so is not as huge a threat as you would imagine. However, he can do some damage if they get lucky.
2. As I originaly said, a good ploy is to get to grips with them as soon as possible. Use terrain and cover as much as possible to get close. Once you arewithin their min range, they do not subtract their BS when they roll an arrow. this makes your units safer. Also, most guard players (myself included) usually place their ord unitsin the rear as far back as possible. Chances are, once you are within the min range, you will likely be in amongst their units where they will not be able to target you without hitting their own units or you will be close enough that targeting you will be very dangerous to their own units because of the "inaccuracy effects' of firing under min range.
3. As I originally suggested but may not have actually said, they don't have much in the way of troops and what they do have is squishy, you outta rip their entire army a new one in hand to hand without having to worry overmuch about retaliation. You may take casualties getting there but once there, the game is virtually won for you.
4. As I originally said, play towards objectives and secondary objectives. Many ties it is easy for an enemy to forget this. Static guard armies are susceptible to this because they are often not very mobile. I would suggest placing your objectives in their deployment zoe along with his as your heading there anyway, that way, you wont have to hold anyone back to claim any, you can claim them all when you get there.

Those who misunderstood my first post in the thread, you are forgiven. that is why I later clarified what I said after I saw you were reading the wrong thing out of it.

Bobthehero, You put what I was trying to say about serpents in a much easier to understand way.

Wow, just wow, some people are unbelievable.....

Anyway, I have been toying with a Guard army for a while, haven't managed many games with it and my results are mixed. It includes 6 Leman Russ tanks of various models so I can definitely speak about being able to throw pie plates around a fair bit.

What I find happens to my army though is I score some massive damage, whole squads disappearing in joyous explosions. But then the enemy gets close....

Then the whole army disappears within a couple of turns. As people have said, the troops are squishy and maneuverability is pretty poor, so it can get hard to react to someone that has broken the line.

My advice against my sort of army (as has been previously stated) charge the line, hope you get some lucky scatter and laugh heartily when you tear them to pieces up close. I still have nightmares about a lone assault marine that took vengeance for the loss of his squad.

Oh and Drop Pods, I hate drop pods. That's why my Iron Hands army has three of them. Time to give someone else some drop pod pain.

Damn this got derailed.

Ok, here's my question; is the following paragraph a viable anti-pie tactic? Suggest improvements if need be:

I use mainly Eldar, sometimes with Dark Eldar allies.

I Deep Strike as many small squads of Spiders as I can to razor-net some tank-butts. Also Deep Strike some Venoms with Blasterborn in it.

Occasionally I might use the Fire Prism's S9 Lance to potshot something because it's one of few vehicles that can outrange at least a good amount of IG tanks (minus Basilisk of course).

Any other ideas for Eldar or Dark Eldar?

Honestly, i don't see how eldar can have any problems with pie-plates. U all got cover, fast movement and great firepower. Since pie-plates don't have rate of fire to really threaten most dangerous eldar stuff.
Now about master of ordnance. I do take him in an allied ig detachment for my orkses. He's fun to use and makes enemy not quite sure what to do. If they ignore him and, for example, don't spread enough - he might get lucky and put some hurt on them. If they don't ignore him - than it's a 30 pt model that changes their gameplay which is rediculous [hey-hey inq].
From a master of ordnance - user's pov i can tell that:
+He's cheap and has great potential
-He's not reliable even with rerolls which won't necessarily suckseed. In many situations you can just ignore him.
-He's a fragile model in a fragile squad - any barrage or precision shot can take him out in a second. Use tfc that you got to almost certainly snipe him out turn one.

On the whole i can just suggest to spread and use cover vs mass large blasts - you don't have hordes so spreading units is an easy and effectiive ways to go. It minimizes damage to infantry. Other stuff like vehicles and mc shouldn't have huge probs vs pieplates - you still got cover. Generally, shooting a strong pieplate you have like <25% chance to cause any damage to a vehicle.

Ordinance determines cover as though the attack were coming from the center of the blast. Only things like jink saves and area terrain will let you roll cover.

 DogOfWar wrote:
Anyway, the scariest thing for me as IG are, as previously mentioned, drop pods and outflankers who can melta/assault my precious Big Guns. The drop pods are especially nasty due to their damnable IGS.

Although now I suppose you should probably be wary of everyone and their mother taking a handy C:I Coteaz for his defensive reserves bubble.

I would think that a pair of nameless inquisitors with six servo-skulls each would be better for Pie-plate Guard, they can essentially deny access to their entire board half as each skull shuts down deep strikers in a 12" bubble until an enemy walks within 6" of them. At least, that's my plan.

 Paimon wrote:
Ordinance determines cover as though the attack were coming from the center of the blast. Only things like jink saves and area terrain will let you roll cover.

No, for two reasons. Only barrage weapons have the special cover rules, ordnance weapons just have better rolls to penetrate armor. A LRBT with an ordnance blast weapon follows the same standard cover rules as any other blast weapon. And barrage weapons do NOT ignore directional cover entirely, they just determine it based on the center of the blast instead of the firing unit. For example, if a Basilisk shot lands on the other side of an ADL from a model that model will get the ADL's cover save as normal.

Right, I'm getting my terms confused, but the point stands, the ADL doesn't do a lot for you if the Basilisk's blast lands on the same side that you are on.