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TiamatRoar wrote:
And the warp can't be a mirror of real space (which it explicitly is) if real space has time while the warp does not (if that's the case, then what the hell is the warp mirroring? When wars exist in the real world, they're supposed to be mirrored in the warp, and that can't happen if time exists in one but not in the other). Sounds like something they tossed in just to be "deep" or to try to give Slaanesh more cred or retcon Chaos as a bigger bad to rival old things like the necrons to me.

Umm one can not speculate on time because not a soul here is an Albert Einstein or Steven Hawking or Time Traveler (fingers crossed), but if I were to take a stab at it I'd say that the warp is like a mirror-camera of the entire universe. Constantly watching and recording every meager event that takes place. Only to be revisited and watched by those with the know-how (Like a hacker with a computer).

It is not a mirror, it is a big huge pile of Polaroid pictures. Pick one.

this fluff seems wacky...

Why would humans be the one that form the Chaos gods when there have been soooo many other mortal beings accross Galaxies and Planets?

That's something that I've been wanting to ask GW myself, but that's how it's been told to us for, basically, five editions now.

I'm sure it's been retconned out, but in the 3rd Ed Necron codex, Khorne was the fault of the Eldar fighting one of the C'tan. Khaine killed a C'tan who exploded and shards of his evil, evil self got stuck in Khaine's body,causing him to turn evil. True, the codex doesn't actually use the word "Khorne", but when it says that the honorable god of war, Khaine, became a twisted and evil parody of himself, who the feth do you think they are talking about?

Ah, no, that's just why Khaine is a jerk now. Has nothing to do with Khorne.

 Makutsu wrote:
this fluff seems wacky...

Why would humans be the one that form the Chaos gods when there have been soooo many other mortal beings accross Galaxies and Planets?

I would guess because of the nature of human beings, and how rapidly they expanded. There were lots of other gods that existed for a long time but they just were not as strong as the Chaos gods. It might also have to do with the psychic ability of certain races. If they lacked psychic ability they would not have gods, or powerful ones. And...the gods tend to kill each other off too, as happened in the Eldar pantheon and with the C'tan.

Perhaps humanity flew under the galactic radar for so many millennia that it allowed the chaos gods to grow in strength, and by the time humans had expanded throughout the galaxy the gods were made strong by the collective fear or worship of so many human beings.

Where did the other three Chaos Gods come from?
Milwaukee?

 Psienesis wrote:
Ah, no, that's just why Khaine is a jerk now. Has nothing to do with Khorne.

Yea, but it at least tried to give an explanation for why the "good" Khaine and "evil" Khorne used the same fething symbol. GW really needs to sort that whole mess out properly.

They don't use the same symbol.

Khaine:


Khorne:


... more importantly, Khaine's symbol is described as "a stylized scorpion" while Khorne's rune is described as "skull-shaped".

squidhills wrote:
I'm sure it's been retconned out, but in the 3rd Ed Necron codex, Khorne was the fault of the Eldar fighting one of the C'tan. Khaine killed a C'tan who exploded and shards of his evil, evil self got stuck in Khaine's body,causing him to turn evil. True, the codex doesn't actually use the word "Khorne", but when it says that the honorable god of war, Khaine, became a twisted and evil parody of himself, who the feth do you think they are talking about?

I always put this down to how Nurgle started to take form, mainly from this bit

http://web.archive.org/web/20080406181835/http://uk.games-workshop.com/necrons/eldar-mythology/

Kaelis Ra cannot truly die, for it is death incarnate. Raging at its defeat, its quintessence howled throughout space, entering every one of the Eldar race and cursing them with the terror of the grave. Thus it was that the seed of the Eldar's downfall was sown, and ultimately, the way of reincarnation was closed to them forever.

I guess the other chaos gods could have started to take form around this time, but the actions on earth are what bought them to full conscious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
They don't use the same symbol.

Khaine:


Khorne:


... more importantly, Khaine's symbol is described as "a stylized scorpion" while Khorne's rune is described as "skull-shaped".

From old RT days WD 127

When Kaela Mensha Khaine, the Bloody Handed God of the Eldar, fought with Slaanesh the Lord of Pleasure, he was quickly overwhelmed and his energy captured by the newborn God. For the Bloody Handed God was as much a part of Slaanesh as of Khorne - being a product of that part of the Eldar nature which finds gratification in murder and pleasure in bloody violence. Khorne the Blood God, the Patron of War, Murder and Battle, roared with rage to discover one of his own taken from him in this way. Then Khorne and Slaanesh clashed headlong, the Blood God fighting to recover the portion of his power that had been robbed from him, Slaanesh driven by his uncontrollable hunger to consume everything in his path. The Bloody Handed God of the Eldar was tossed this way and that, at first grasped by Slaanesh, then tugged back into the compass of Khorne.

Wait didn't they actually BEGIN to form during the old ones times.

Old ones vs. C'tan (Which I'm almost certain was more of a civil war than two warring races, Khaine (hevaily referenced as an old one) being shattered into shards the same way C'tan are...)

And the Old Ones mostly left the galaxy after they realised their creations (Orks/Eldar) who had psychic imprint on the warp were causing an awakening of powers in the immaterium.

Thus the majority left as the C'tan/Old One war fizzled out.


Slightly at a tangent but I subscribe to the idea that:
Old Ones fought C'Tan (who were a rebel faction of Old Ones)
Old ones created a few races to fight C'tan
C'tan backed into a corner started the Necron to fight the armies of Old Ones

That age old battle fizzled away and the Old Ones realised the impact their newly created races were having on the warp (birth of the spark of the chaos gods) and the Majority left the galaxy.
I say majority cause the Eldar gods hung around. Khaine and the likes. Possibly they were Old Ones that thought if they stayed they could stop the chaos gods or defend the races they had created for a war that was ended.

Fast forward to present times in lore and you have Old Ones that left the galaxy. What better way to cleanse a whole mistake that provides power to the chaos gods that they created than leaving the galaxy, manufacturing a new race and sending it in to destroy everything that powers the chaos gods?

Maybe something like an adaptive, bio consuming, horde like, endless army from beyond the galaxy that cast a shadow on the warp instead of an imprint?
Anyone think of an army like that?

 SignMaster99 wrote:
However, as Extreaminatus pointed out, this is a very Earth-centered view. You'd think that the whole galactic C'Tan vs. Old Ones thing would have started all of this WAY before apes even considered evolving.

Started is the key word. Sure they could have started to be formed back then, but they fully awoke during the middle ages.

Just because the warp became turbulent as a result of the Old Ones, does not equate to the Chaos gods as we know them today. People keep making the error of jumping to assume that the formation of the first warp gods automatically refers to the current big Chaos gods. The warp teems with entities and there could have been numerous gods of other races before humanity.

Whatever other alien races existed before humanity would have had their own gods, but that does not mean they are Khorne, Nurgle, or Tzeentch. Think of how different polytheistic cultures have existed throughout history. Though both the Aztecs and Greeks had gods of the sun, they were not the same and behaved very differently.

Humanity's gods are dominant because humanity overall is dominant. Ork gods are the most powerful in sheer power and virtually indestructible because the Orks themselves as a race teem and are virtually indestructible as a race. The Eldar had their gods, so we see the existence over and over again of racial pantheons.

I don't think anyone is saying that they are the same as they are today. We know that the Gods gods formed in the warp but were only bought into full consciousness when mankind started waring on earth.

The Eldar Gods were around before the Chaos Gods and the Necron had the C'tan.

Perhaps they did worship their own Gods, but maybe they were Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle just under other names, the same as the way in which the Emperor is throughout the Imperium. To some he is the Emperor of mankind who is on the Golden Throne on Terra, to others he is the thunderbolt wielding Sky God.

In the warp as well, the Chaos Gods have always existed and never existed, it's the trippy nature of the place.

These gods are intricately linked to the fate of humanity. If humanity goes, they go. They are NOT the Eldar gods.

 Psienesis wrote:
They don't use the same symbol.

Khaine:


Khorne:


... more importantly, Khaine's symbol is described as "a stylized scorpion" while Khorne's rune is described as "skull-shaped".

I'm sorry, but that only proves my point. Remove the dangly bits from the bottom of Khaine's symbol, and the basic lines that remain are the same as the basic lines of Khorne's symbol. The Avatar's head fins are shaped very similar to the helmet fins of a Khorne Beserker. It's all a hold-over from back when WHFB and 40K were considered to be in the same universe; the Dark Elves worship "Khaine" but its all but straight-up admitted that they are talking about Khorne (and their 'Khaine' symbol lacks the 'scorpion' bits at the bottom).

I'm unable to figure out how to link an image here, but just look for a picture of the metal Witch Elf standard bearer and you'll see what I mean.

As far as the C'tan fight being responsible for nothing more than making Khaine a jerk, while I admit to not being as up to date on some of my Eldar lore as I am on my Imperial lore, the only place I've ever seen Khaine referred to negatively in 40K is *in* the 3rd Ed Necron Codex. If he's been depicted as a rear end in a top hat in more recent Eldar books, OK fine. But to my knowledge, the Necron book was the only place that said anything bad about Khaine's behavior.

squidhills wrote:
I'm sorry, but that only proves my point. Remove the dangly bits from the bottom of Khaine's symbol, and the basic lines that remain are the same as the basic lines of Khorne's symbol. The Avatar's head fins are shaped very similar to the helmet fins of a Khorne Beserker. It's all a hold-over from back when WHFB and 40K were considered to be in the same universe; the Dark Elves worship "Khaine" but its all but straight-up admitted that they are talking about Khorne (and their 'Khaine' symbol lacks the 'scorpion' bits at the bottom).

I'm unable to figure out how to link an image here, but just look for a picture of the metal Witch Elf standard bearer and you'll see what I mean.

As far as the C'tan fight being responsible for nothing more than making Khaine a jerk, while I admit to not being as up to date on some of my Eldar lore as I am on my Imperial lore, the only place I've ever seen Khaine referred to negatively in 40K is *in* the 3rd Ed Necron Codex. If he's been depicted as a rear end in a top hat in more recent Eldar books, OK fine. But to my knowledge, the Necron book was the only place that said anything bad about Khaine's behavior.

Sorry, no. Even after removing the "dangly bits", which is half the symbol by the way, they are still different symbols.

It's all a hold-over from back when WHFB and 40K were considered to be in the same universe; the Dark Elves worship "Khaine" but its all but straight-up admitted that they are talking about Khorne (and their 'Khaine' symbol lacks the 'scorpion' bits at the bottom).

That is speculation done by ignorant humans in Fantasy. Khaine is believed to be an Avatar of Khorne, but there is nothing in-universe to prove that.

Forget where I read it but I remember Khorne starting out when the first creature killed another, might have been for food or just out of cold blood (i cant remember). Tzeentch came with the first sentient thought and Nurgle when the first creature didnt want to die or something. May have been all in the same scene of history but again I cant remember this too well or where it came from