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What part of don't worry about range is so hard to understand?

 hisdudeness wrote:
Instead, if a Template weapons fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit

Yup i think it is clear enough in the BRB that the D3 is Instead of the template =)

Fragile wrote:A flamer hitting a unit 20" away does not make sense to alot of people considering its range is only 8". If that group of people wants to play it that way, that is fine.

It does actually make sense if you're charging through a wall of flame...

It even describes it in the rule: "If the charge failed, we can assume that the enemy ran into range of the Template weapon and were driven away"

Fragile wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:

Eihnlazer wrote:
you dont place the template, but making that a house rule seems fair if everyone agrees.

to what end exactly?

My rules seem strange and are house ruled. A flamer hitting a unit 20" away does not make sense to alot of people considering its range is only 8". If that group of people wants to play it that way, that is fine.

It literally says in the rules why that situation is plausible in wall of death

Having seen real flamethrowers being used, I'd suggest that you can't fire one through a friendly unit.

Not without causing casualties to your friends anyway.

 Endriu Death Coy wrote:
Having seen real flamethrowers being used, I'd suggest that you can't fire one through a friendly unit.

Not without causing casualties to your friends anyway.

And a real Chainsword would kick itself right out of your hands/back to your face(not to mention most are not depicted wide enough for the teeth to actually spin).

Seeing the debate turned to fluff, there is something I keep wanting to point out to people:
The entire battle likely takes place in less time then it would for me to catch a cab home from work!

My view on this particular situation, Assault and Overwatch, from a fluffy point of view is simple:
I find the idea that over-watching unit would not be 'bracing themselves,' by moving key defensive weapons into clear fire lanes, to accept a 'telegraphed' charge as the far fetched conclusion. As the entire battle is happening within such a small time frame it isn't a series of move-break actions we are witnessing, where a unit is moving up to a position, halting their advance completely to fire their weapons and then attaching bayonets while they wait for an order to charge. It is a single fluent motion where the unit in question is charging across the battle field, while firing any weapon light enough to be accurate as the move, to crash into another unit from the very start. The only reason there seems to be breaks is the fact the Rules are abstract and unable to handle such the chaos such fluent battles always create.

So I ask you, if you had flamer throwers in your unit and had a minute or two before you saw the white of the enemies eyes as they where charging across the battlefield:
Will you be putting them into a position to create a wall of fire to meet those brave bastards or will you just stand around and watch the enemy close?

Totally; 10-30 seconds per turn with a typical battle being between 1-5 minutes

Although some actions would point to slightly longer times and just defy the entire idea

Reloading and firing a missile launcher every turn

Repairing a vehicle (master of the forge)

Climbing up and down a ruin.

These things *could* be done in 30secs, but it would be a very tight fit

Who knows, maybe if our mechanics started praying to the machine spirit they too can repair an engine in 30 seconds!

 DJGietzen wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
DJ - no, it is instead of rolling to hit as a snap fire, d3 hits are scored. Nothing more

Please avoid making up rules out of whole cloth

You are given instruction on how to fire a template weapon. You are also given instruction on how to fire snap shots. Pg 52 only tells us what to do instead of firing snap shots. I don't see anything there that tells us we don't follow the rest of the rules for firing a template weapon and its not like the rest of the rules would ever have any impact.

I'm not making anything up, I am simply stating that we don't have permission to skip a rather important step.

Do you play it this way in games - has anyone questioned this? I never come across anyone ever puting a template down for overwatch so intrigued?

 nutty_nutter wrote:
teardrop template weapons have a special rule attached to them that allows them to cause D3 automatic hits instead of placing the template.

you mean instead of firing snap shots.

 DJGietzen wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
teardrop template weapons have a special rule attached to them that allows them to cause D3 automatic hits instead of placing the template.

you mean instead of firing snap shots.

You mean firing Overwatch.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
DJ - no, it is instead of rolling to hit as a snap fire, d3 hits are scored. Nothing more

Please avoid making up rules out of whole cloth

You are given instruction on how to fire a template weapon. You are also given instruction on how to fire snap shots. Pg 52 only tells us what to do instead of firing snap shots. I don't see anything there that tells us we don't follow the rest of the rules for firing a template weapon and its not like the rest of the rules would ever have any impact.

I'm not making anything up, I am simply stating that we don't have permission to skip a rather important step.

Do you play it this way in games - has anyone questioned this? I never come across anyone ever puting a template down for overwatch so intrigued?

Of course I don't play it this way. 1) it rarely ever would come up as models with template weapons tend to not be buried inside their own unit. 2) While I don't think letting a flamer do this is RAW, that's not how most people view it and its just a game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
teardrop template weapons have a special rule attached to them that allows them to cause D3 automatic hits instead of placing the template.

you mean instead of firing snap shots.

You mean firing Overwatch.

No. Pg52 tells us they are fiirng overwatch, but instead of firing snap shots they roll d3 hits. Thats the whole point. The weapon is fired the only step being replaced in the instructions for firing the weapon is how to count the number of hits.

...which is the part that uses the template. Hence it isn't used.

No, you place the template as part of firing the weapon. If you can't place the template with out it covering any of your models except for the firing model then you can't fire the weapon. Its only after you have placed the template do you count the number of enemy models under it to determine the number of hits. Wall of Death replaced the counting of the enemy models with d3 automatic hits because that is the part of the rules for firing template weapons that determines the number of hits, not the placement of the template.

That's not what the Wall of Death rule says.
At what point does it say there's a chance of it not hitting?

If you hit automatically do you still roll to hit? Just because it doesn't say not too?

Its not a question of it not hitting, its a question of it not being able ti fire at all.

A weapon that wounds automatically still needs to be able to hit, and a weapon that hits automatically still needs to be able to fire.

 DJGietzen wrote:
No, you place the template as part of firing the weapon. If you can't place the template with out it covering any of your models except for the firing model then you can't fire the weapon. Its only after you have placed the template do you count the number of enemy models under it to determine the number of hits. Wall of Death replaced the counting of the enemy models with d3 automatic hits because that is the part of the rules for firing template weapons that determines the number of hits, not the placement of the template.

Placing the template is how you determine hits. Instead of rolling to-hit.

Wall of death has the same "Instead" where you simply roll a d3 to determine the number of hits.

And where in the rule is option of it not firing?
The part it replaced perhaps?

 DJGietzen wrote:
No, you place the template as part of firing the weapon. If you can't place the template with out it covering any of your models except for the firing model then you can't fire the weapon. Its only after you have placed the template do you count the number of enemy models under it to determine the number of hits. Wall of Death replaced the counting of the enemy models with d3 automatic hits because that is the part of the rules for firing template weapons that determines the number of hits, not the placement of the template.

Slightly incorrect. You place the template instead of rolling To Hit.

"Instead of rolling To Hit, simply place the template..."

The roll To Hit is replaced with the Template.

As clearly stated in wall of death:

"...it automatically inflicts D3 hits..."

An attack that Hits automatically does not roll To Hit so there is no permission to place the template.

No roll To Hit = No Template.

Reference to the length of the template-
"Don't worry about comparing the length of the template with the distance to the enemy..."
is clearly referring to checking range("distance"). It is not suggesting the template is placed at all nor that you must be able to place it. It is simply telling you not to worry about the distance of the unit compared to the length of the template, AKA checking range.

One thing has come from my investigations here that i did not realize before. Hits from templates are resolve against models but wounds are resolved as normal.
"Any models fully or partially under the template are hit."
"Wounds inflicted by Template weapons are allocated following the normal rules."
Don't know if everyone else knew this already but I've been doing this part wrong for a while it seems. Was it this way in 5th edition?

 DJGietzen wrote:
No. Pg52 tells us they are fiirng overwatch, but instead of firing snap shots they roll d3 hits.

There is no instead of. Template weapons do not fire snap shots. When they fire Overwatch, they simply inflict hits.

Instead ,if aTemplate weapons fires overwatch, it autornatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value. Don't worry about comparing the length of the template with the distance to the enemy.

Why are you are ignoring the underlined part

There is an instead, you've quoted it. What is it instead of? Well that would be the immediately preceding line you did not quote.

I'm not. I've never said you need to compare the length of the template with the distance to the enemy but that's not the only thing the template is used for when firing a template weapon.

Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon...

Those two sentences, when taken together mean that when firing over watch, instead of firing snap shots the template weapon automatically inflicts hits. Its just like "John can eat breakfast, even though John cannot eat eggs. Instead, if John eats breakfast he eats cereal." See, instead of eggs John has cereal. It does not mean that John is not having breakfast.

Now I've said this before but I guess I need to say it again. The template weapon is still being fired. We have a whole mess of rules for firing template weapons and we have only been instructed to change some of those rules. We have not been instructed to not follow them all together. Normally the portion of those rules that determines if you hit the enemy involves the template, but there are other portions of those rules that also involve the template. Wall of Death is replacing the hit calculation portion. Unless we are given permission to skip the other portions that involve the as well we must complete them by placing the template.

 Abandon wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
No, you place the template as part of firing the weapon. If you can't place the template with out it covering any of your models except for the firing model then you can't fire the weapon. Its only after you have placed the template do you count the number of enemy models under it to determine the number of hits. Wall of Death replaced the counting of the enemy models with d3 automatic hits because that is the part of the rules for firing template weapons that determines the number of hits, not the placement of the template.

Slightly incorrect. You place the template instead of rolling To Hit.

"Instead of rolling To Hit, simply place the template..."

The roll To Hit is replaced with the Template.

As clearly stated in wall of death:

"...it automatically inflicts D3 hits..."

An attack that Hits automatically does not roll To Hit so there is no permission to place the template.

No roll To Hit = No Template.

Reference to the length of the template-
"Don't worry about comparing the length of the template with the distance to the enemy..."
is clearly referring to checking range("distance"). It is not suggesting the template is placed at all nor that you must be able to place it. It is simply telling you not to worry about the distance of the unit compared to the length of the template, AKA checking range.

One thing has come from my investigations here that i did not realize before. Hits from templates are resolve against models but wounds are resolved as normal.
"Any models fully or partially under the template are hit."
"Wounds inflicted by Template weapons are allocated following the normal rules."
Don't know if everyone else knew this already but I've been doing this part wrong for a while it seems. Was it this way in 5th edition?

I do believe this solves it, no?

Edit: Interesting points made me get out my rulebook.

I believe your right in the assumption that because it hit's automatically, and there is no roll to hit that placing the template is not necessary.

Eihnlazer wrote:
you dont place the template, but making that a house rule seems fair if everyone agrees.

This goes away from the OP's question. He is asking about overwatch in the form of supporting fire and why the enemy crisis suits get to fire overwatch when they are 5ins away from the target that is being charged.

Here is an example: I have an infiltrated unit of kroot that go from board edge to board edge. I have a Crisis suit unit with flamers in my deployment zone that are within 6in of the kroot line. The top of the kroot line gets charged in my enemies deployment zone. The crisis suits get to fire overwatch with their flamers with the WoD rules even though the crisis suits are 36+ inches away. WoD is worded in such a way that you fire overwatch no matter the distance. Most every other weapon type has to follow distance rules and LOS. Flamers do not.