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 Chumbalaya wrote:

This isn't true for just Tau, mind you. Every army is capable of being "not fun". It's more to do with folks agreeing to a game with different motivations/mentalities.

If folks in your group aren't enjoying their games with your Tau, you should probably just talk to them and see what the problem is. Folks on Dakka aren't going to be much help because they don't know your group and will probably just want to push their agenda. Talk it over, see what their issues are and see if they can't be worked on. It's more than just hadicapping yourself, they should be able to make changes on their end too.

Could not agree more. The best (I'd say only) solution to your dilemma is to have a chat with your fellow gamers and find out just what they are unhappy with (if anything).

I'd also like to add one of my personal frustrations with playing tau is the can effectively invalidate the entire assault phase. Generally I find it either stomp them (if I can get units into assault) or lose horribly (if I can't.) Neither scenario has much to do with the majority of the game (which can drag in either case as one or the other player has to sit there and take it while the other rampages), and everything to do with how we each created our lists and our initial deployment.

I'm not entirely sure how to fix the above as of yet, maybe the new stronghold assault and escalation sourcebooks can turn that particular tide?

Be cinematic, play to the fluff, got two riptides and a MC rampaging towards your line, marty one for the greater good to hold it back.

This is how I always play personally, it was a blast, hero's were born and lost on the battlefield.

I know there's a whole competitive edge to 40k that a lot seem to take seriously, but that's what sports are for for me, 40k is casual and for lolz., the grots who take down the terminator squad etc.

]

I'd also like to add one of my personal frustrations with playing tau is the can effectively invalidate the entire assault phase.

As a Tau player, should I be frustrated that my entire army can fold if you reach combat? Its how the Tau army plays. You find only 3 redeeming choices for close combat in the entire two books : farsight, riptide, and fusion blade commander. Hardly able to stem the tide from a good assault.

I don't enjoy most games against tau because I find them strategically linear. Most opponents are gonna castle, I am gonna come at you. The rest is just down to dice. Also, because most of the decisions you make in any given 40k game come down to positioning, tau invalidate this with long range and ignore cover.

As far as fixing this, I think the answer is in making your list more balanced. Unfortunately, allies and kroot are really the only way to really do this. I agree with others, moving more may make the game more fun by giving the opponent and yourself more decisions.

I honestly don't have too much of a problem with riptides because they are at least dynamic, a huge scatter or a miss-step forward can change the game. I detest missilesides. Stand still, roll tons of dice, and then I pick things up.

 HiiC wrote:
I don't enjoy most games against tau because I find them strategically linear. Most opponents are gonna castle, I am gonna come at you. The rest is just down to dice.

Congratulations, you just described every army in 40k. A good army picks one strategy and executes it well, whether it's a gunline castle in one corner or an all-out rush at you with assault units.


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endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Be cinematic, play to the fluff, got two riptides and a MC rampaging towards your line, marty one for the greater good to hold it back.

How is that fluffy? The Riptides have the speed to disengage and avoid the MC entirely, Tau are pragmatists who are reluctant to take unnecessary losses or seek glory in martyrdom, and the "fluffy" solution is to suicide a Riptide just because you want one of your units to die? That isn't fluffy play, it's the equivalent of playing a board game with a small child and deliberately miscounting your spaces to let them win.


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 Mahtamori wrote:
How to play them fun? Play them interactively. This means you need to surmount the difficult challenge of making an effective, competitive, list that does not revolve around JSJ at ranges the opponent can not shoot at.

But JSJ at ranges where the enemy can't return fire is the whole point of Tau. Battlesuits JSJ, tanks use their mobility to stay at range (at least they did until the utterly stupid removal of vehicle multitrackers), and even the static infantry line up at maximum range and avoid counter-attacks at all costs. Declining to JSJ effectively might give the other player a better chance of winning, but it goes completely against the fluff and the Tau player isn't going to be having much fun when you tell them that they're ruining your game if they don't suicide their crisis suits into your assault units just so you get to kill something.

A better alternative is to show up with a plan beyond "move forward 6" a turn until I charge". Tau JSJ units force you to value speed, assault vehicles, etc, over slow death star units that maximize killing power at the expense of mobility. Don't just neglect those things and complain when your bad strategy loses as expected.

The Tau, at least in many circles, are pretty much to early 6th edition what the Leaf Blower IG lists were to 5th edition. I fully expect that in a few months we'll be hearing about how boring a IG artillery company hidden behind a fortification network is.

For some armies gunline builds, while not very dynamic, are very effective. This doesn't make them the only effective way to play these armies, but it is one of the easiest.

Gunlines have their vulnerabilities and those can be exploited. Once people adapt to breaking into and breaking apart Gunlines, we'll see play shift away from them. I wouldn't be surprised if we see good gunline breaking abilities in Orks, 'nids, and Blood Angels when they appear. IIRC it was Blood Angels that did the most to wreck gunline in 5th as well.

 thejughead wrote:
As a Tau player, should I be frustrated that my entire army can fold if you reach combat? Its how the Tau army plays. You find only 3 redeeming choices for close combat in the entire two books : farsight, riptide, and fusion blade commander. Hardly able to stem the tide from a good assault.

No, you are quite right to have your opinions on such. I'm just wishing it wasn't so coin-flip-y with tau either decimating or being decimated based entirely on whether or not the opposing player is able to reach their lines.

There isn't a whole lot of interaction there, it essentially boils down to wether or not your tau gunline is rolling hot that evening or not. (barring special moves like drop pods and deepstriking)

Personally I'd be happier if the tau had some 'meaningful' way to interact in the assault phase that was uniquely tau. I suspect their 6th edition overwatch shenanigans were an attempt at such, but sadly they just don't seem to cut it.

 Neorealist wrote:
There isn't a whole lot of interaction there, it essentially boils down to wether or not your tau gunline is rolling hot that evening or not. (barring special moves like drop pods and deepstriking)

And that last part is the important one. You shouldn't be able to win against a shooting army with a plan that consists of "move forward 6" every turn until you charge". Those "special moves" should be a mandatory part of your list, and if you aren't using them then you're just playing a bad list. Complaining about how a list without "special moves" struggles to deal with Tau gunlines makes about as much sense as complaining that my IG list with nothing but lasguns struggles to deal with vehicles.

 Peregrine wrote:
And that last part is the important one. You shouldn't be able to win against a shooting army with a plan that consists of "move forward 6" every turn until you charge". Those "special moves" should be a mandatory part of your list, and if you aren't using them then you're just playing a bad list. Complaining about how a list without "special moves" struggles to deal with Tau gunlines makes about as much sense as complaining that my IG list with nothing but lasguns struggles to deal with vehicles.

On the contrary. I'm not saying a list shouldn't include features like deepstriking and the like. What I am saying is I lament that lists 'must' include such. And in enough numbers to be the sole strategic option available to the list, precluding any other potential options there may be and narrowing down the strategy primarily to the list-building phase.

I'm not sure the scenario where I say bring all drop pods and absolutely stomp the tau gunline to where I don't and get absolutely stomped 'by' the tau gunline with absolutely nothing in between is a good situation in which to have 'fun'.

 Neorealist wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
As a Tau player, should I be frustrated that my entire army can fold if you reach combat? Its how the Tau army plays. You find only 3 redeeming choices for close combat in the entire two books : farsight, riptide, and fusion blade commander. Hardly able to stem the tide from a good assault.

No, you are quite right to have your opinions on such. I'm just wishing it wasn't so coin-flip-y with tau either decimating or being decimated based entirely on whether or not the opposing player is able to reach their lines.

There isn't a whole lot of interaction there, it essentially boils down to wether or not your tau gunline is rolling hot that evening or not. (barring special moves like drop pods and deepstriking)

Personally I'd be happier if the tau had some 'meaningful' way to interact in the assault phase that was uniquely tau. I suspect their 6th edition overwatch shenanigans were an attempt at such, but sadly they just don't seem to cut it.

I'd be happy if necrons had a meaningful way to hold objectives instead of staying in their flying transports and jumping on the objective in the last turn. I'll bring my vespid the next time I see flayed ones on the table.

 thejughead wrote:
I'd be happy if necrons had a meaningful way to hold objectives instead of staying in their flying transports and jumping on the objective in the last turn. I'll bring my vespid the next time I see flayed ones on the table.

hehe, I'd love to see flayed ones perform some sort of useful effect too. someday... someday...

how do tau armies deal with flyers and drop pod/deep strike armies , if they aren't using 2-3 riptides? just the cmd seems not enough . Do they take some sort of FW units or something ?

i go by my fluff i made for my own sept.

my sept loves stealth (so always take 1 stealth team)
my sept has the one of the highest number of Gue'vesa. (so always take a gue'vesa'la team)
they have a semi friendship with the Legion of the damned(so adorn their armor with skulls and bones, leaders wear cloaks), also lets me bring out my old Legion army.
finally i use one fire warrior team with pulse carbines and emp grenades in devilfish for an 'assault squad' i love the look on peoples face with i use that term. mainly they grab objectives or manage to take out the biggest tank.

Vetock certainly did a stand up job of crippling mobile Tau armies, but there are definitely was of making your armies more interesting without actually handicapping them:

Kroot - Kroot are awesome. They were awesome in the old codex and awesome in this one. The combination of infiltrate, move through cover, bolter equivalent weapons, dual profile sniper weapons, acute senses (with hounds), krootox that don't remove infiltrate, the ability to benefit from both Ethereal and makerlights and a cheap price tag make this one of the best troop choices in the game. The can infiltrate into place turn 1 or outflank. They make for a lot of interesting strategy and can fight up close and personal due to sheer numbers and expendability. They are also excellent objective grabbers, and your best answers to MCs. Drop the firewarriors and the aegis, and just show up where ever you want after your opponent has deployed. Trust me, this improves the enjoyability of the game immensely, but does not grant your opponent any advantages, as Kroot are arguably superior to firewarriors.

Crisis Suits - Believe it or not, missile pods are not the only weapon option for these guys. Now that we are no longer up against parking lots, feel free to explore the closer ranged weapon options. Plasma Rifles and Fusion Blasters will both serve you well and work well in conjunction with the Kroot. The airbursting fragmentation launcher is also quite sick, and flamers make great backup weapons that you can fit to your third hardpoint. Burst cannons are also good but I would leave anti-infantry duties to Kroot or Stealth Suits.

Stealth Suits - You probably can't take more then one squad without sacrificing too much specialized firepower, because these guys like Kroot and Firewarriors are also anti-infantry focused. They can also take homing beacons if you want to deepstrike your suits, and provide limited markerlight support. They can infiltrate, outflank with the Kroot as well, or deepstrike themselves.

Tetra - Forgeworld but worth it. Scouting fast skimmers with markerlights and homing beacons. Perfect for the tau army on the move. Deepstrike a crisis squad with Fusion Blasters next to a high-priority enemy target with the homing beacon, then use the markerlights for some BS5 meltagun goodness.

Barracuda - Proper air support, enough said.

Shadowsun - An interesting special character with many cool special abilities. Try her out, you might be surprised.

Riptide - Nobody will hold it against you if you bring just one, hopefully. Try making more use of the Nova Reactor ability boost and playing the Riptide more aggressively in general.


Allies - An Eldar Autarch with some Guardian jetbikes provides a badly needed reserve modifier if you want to play the outflank and deepstrike game, along with another good objective grabber.