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It was a blast! Can't wait to do it again next year. It was pretty cool to get best marines and 12th overall with that many people is a good showing, especially after only getting 4 points round one.

We underestimated the sheer volume of knights and the amount of Land Raiders was also way higher than we expected.

The amount of psy-spam was also less than we expected it to be.

Congrats to all the winners and thanks to the staff!! GREAT JOB!!!

Kurt Clauss from Quality Control here, I just wanted to say thank you to Shane and his crew for once again putting on such a large tournament and working for so many hours so that everyone can play another tiresome weekend of 40k.

Thank you to Hop on the Trail Boss, Roll 2 Wound, Tag Team Uranus, Chicago Kamikazes, Orlando Hereticus Alpha and lastly Honey Badgers for all the great games and several hours of throwing dice.

Also, Suck it Nick.

perrin23860 wrote:
Seemed there were some folks that had some list design issues that were penalized. Not sure how that happens when we submitted lists early. Didn't they check lists? If they didn't why submit army lists in advance??? Perhaps I'm missing something. What do I know?

I'm still confused about this.

The player should be responsible for having a legal list. But, when you submit a list a week in advance and get a confirmation email, you're kind of led to believe that whatever you submitted is legit. I know it puts the judges in a difficult place when something goes though like this. If they let the player keep playing, they will get blamed for not enforcing the rules. But to dock points after confirming the list sent in advance doesn't seem fair either.

I've also heard that some illegal lists were not penalized. According to the whatc.org site, you were only allowed one ally, so inq+GK+SM would be illegal, but I heard people were running that. I don't know if it's true, or if they were docked points as a result, but if penalties were applied inconsistently, I think that's highly unfair.

Also was disappointed that the faq said summoned deamons had to be actual gw models, yet to find some folks were allowed to use non gw models...

JBW wrote:I think the intent with the requirement for summoned GW models was to prevent people from green casting a bunch of models to get the new Daemon goodness in time.

I think the goal of limiting summoning armies with requirements that don't apply to the whole army is kind of iffy, honestly. Speaking as someone who can bring 20,000 points of painted daemons to an event, I fear that such a rule creates a different tier between people who can afford to play an army and people who cannot. I mean, this is an expensive hobby all around, but for the most part, anyone can get roughly an 1850 army for between $6-800 dollars, and that's new models from somewhere like SpikeyBits or the Warstore. You can probably cut costs further if you buy used on ebay.

But to separate out tiers, where there's one army that's got a real-world barrier to entry that others don't have, I dunno, I just worry that it creates a skewed meta. Not that summoning proved to be overly powerful in this format. I was pretty much assured of giving up killpoints and first blood every game, though as one of the armies that got put out for the other team to eat, that wasn't a huge disadvantage. But to see how far down the standings some of the other well-known daemon players fell... well, maybe their teams used them the same way.

The summoning rules didn't affect me, other than how many models I brought to the event. I summoned four Lords of Change one game, and still had other greater daemons to spare.

Tyfus wrote:Anyone know if armylists is available somewhere ?

Or what was in Tim Gorhams Grey Knight list ?

I don't think they've been published - at least I'm not aware of that, or know where I'd find them. I know what was in Tim's list, but I don't know that it's my place to tell that. I'll let you know he had a skyshield, because I lent it to him

 JBW wrote:
I think the intent with the requirement for summoned GW models was to prevent people from green casting a bunch of models to get the new Daemon goodness in time.

There was only one player that I'm aware of that asked about that and the opponent's models were perfectly fine, third party models. They were the same size and base as the GW models.

It wasn't an issue. I think the FAQ could be clarified in the future and it's an easy fix to add.

I agree that as long as the model is an accurate representation(size, base, etc) that it should be allowed, but if it is not an accurate representation then it should not be allowed. For example, I do not think that zombies are an accurate representation of Plague Bearers as they are smaller than the PBearers, but that is a common practice Daemon players to do. Where do you draw the line though as a TO though?

Awesome tournament! I had a lot of fun! Congrats to Quality Control for winning!

With the drop of 7th so close to the event, changes in FAQ's and codex's I think Shane and staff did an incredible job juggling all the rules changes. We were one of the teams that had the multiple allies in one of our armies with Coteaz. When the rules were written for the event this was legal and all the rules shifting I think it slipped into the cracks of obscurity. We made it a point to verify with the event coordinators and had confirmation the list was legal. Ironically it was our lowest scoring teammate too heh. I think it was more of a time frame thing and sudden shift in all the rules. I believe there were also some issues with the way the event FAQ was loading up. The night before the event some people could only access the FAQ 1.2V instead of 1.4V. All in all it was a great event with a lot of great games. The overall mood from most people was fun over competition. There were all kinds of people learning the changes from 6th to 7th hehe.

I think Shane and the crew really should get a pat on the back for doing such an incredible job with all the rule shifting just weeks before the event. All the people that had to adjust their lists at the last minute deserve a pat too.

Lists did not get published for the event this year due to the timeframes and all the additional work that had to be done to compensate for the rule changes. If Shane and crew did this good of a job this year with the rules shift I cant wait to see what they pull off next year!! Love the venue. It is nice to have all that extra space for army displays and such and not have to butt rub the guys playing behind you heh. Not that there is anything wrong with that...just not my cup of tea

Very well run event... Definitely of the very best. My team will be back next year for sure.

Ok,
Some answers to your comments/concerns (in no particular order):

1 - Due to the way the Inquisition codex works when allying it to a detachment, it was NOT an illegal list for ATC.

2 - Many of the restrictions we had in place this year will not exist next year. We were trying our best to keep things from getting too far out of control with the new ed change. Allowing certain formats, etc from 7e and dataslates would have opened entirely too many other doors to wrestle with with only weeks to do so.

3 - How did we miss the ONE army list that really mattered out of the 170 that we had to review? Well all I can say is that Murphy is always looking to kick me in the nuts lol. But seriously we had 170 lists to review and this particular list was attached in a word document with another army list. All I can think of is that we reviewed the one list, got to the bottom of it and continued on, not scrolling down to the rest of the document. Not looking to blame the player at all here in any way BTW. We decided to give you guys more time to work on lists and take on a little more last-minute pressure upon ourselves. In hind-sight, We should not have extended the list deadline and worked to have them posted before the event. The question could also be asked, "How did 25 other players not catch it before round 5?"

We simply did not have the time to slog through the horrible mess of emails that we received to sort them into any reasonable form in order to post them in time. It was a huge job just to decipher some of the lists we received.
We will have an online submission form for next year that will put the players into a position were they are 90% responsible.

4 - As far as the results of the illegal list being played goes, Our decision was to deduct 10 points per round previously played and let him use the models as vanilla Marine allies. He went on to a 26 point win in turn 5 and 30 point win in round 6 (out of a possible 30 points per round) Our question then became, "did it really matter what this guy brought?, because he crushed with an army that was pretty much useless in other players hands." He is a solid player. Long story short, we debated for 2.5 hours, consulted with other team captains and came to our decision. It was not an easy situation for us or the players involved. We will have a completely new army list submission system and lists will be due 2 weeks prior next year. Live and Learn,

5 - There were reasons for our restriction on summoned models being GW and the one player that did not have them had been approved to use those models well before the 7e drop so we were not going to go back on that, as his intent was not what others might have been after the drop of 7e. This rule will also go away next year as it was meant to control some things for this year year due to the 7e changeover.

6 - Finally, we are very thankful for everyone that attended and for everyone's patience and generally awesome attitude the entire weekend. As every year before, we will work even harder to make this event one of the best in the nation and are looking forward to next year!

 THE SIEGE wrote:

1 - Due to the way the Inquisition codex works when allying it to a detachment, it was NOT an illegal list for ATC.

How does that interact with the legal force org chart for the event, found at http://whatc.org/PDFs/ATCDetChart.jpg? I don't see how the inquisition codex supersedes that?

5 - There were reasons for our restriction on summoned models being GW

Can you go into detail about what these reasons are? I know myself, and others, have some nice ultraforge daemons that could have seen play too.

I enjoyed myself at the event, but was on the team that had the unfortunate list problem, and that kind of spoiled it for most of us. I understand why you had to apply the penalty, and realize that it helped the other teams from feeling cheated, but we felt like we were penalized for something that should have been caught earlier and addressed before we left Chicago.

Then let me reflect the question back to you Redbeard....

Restriction on summoned models....Why does it matter? Shane said (and hopefully you can concur) that things were crazy with all the changes so close to the event and they were trying to prevent other things from getting out of control. That pretty much answers it but he even follow up and states it wont be there next year so we should get to see your ultra forge models heh.

If you are upset for something you were penalized because you guys missed something in one of your lists then how is that the events fault? Ultimately you are responsible for your list. We had questions and we asked and got pre-approval because of confusion. If there was a mistake in a list I think it falls on whomever wrote the list first. Hate that it happened and I really hope you had fun at the event. Overall I think everyone had a great time and just about all our opponents had great attitudes and were really fun to play.

 Redbeard wrote:

 THE SIEGE wrote:

1 - Due to the way the Inquisition codex works when allying it to a detachment, it was NOT an illegal list for ATC.

How does that interact with the legal force org chart for the event, found at http://whatc.org/PDFs/ATCDetChart.jpg? I don't see how the inquisition codex supersedes that?

ANSWER:

Inqisition can be used as either a primary detachment and therefore a prime army or it may be taken as a special kind of detachment called an Inquisitorial Detachment.
From Codex: Inquisition regarding Inquisition as allies:

“INCLUDING INQUISITORS IN YOUR ARMY"

When you choose an army, Inquisitors may be taken as a primary detachment or as a special form of allied detachment known as an Inquisitorial detachment.

If you take Inquisitors as a primary detachment, use the Inquisitorial detachment Force Organisation chart instead of the primary detachment Force Organisation chart.

Alternatively, an army may include an Inquisitorial detachment in addition to any other detachments. Other detachments, such as allied detachments, additional primary detachments and fortifications can be taken normally. So, for example, you could field an army with an Imperial Guard primary detachment, an allied detachment of Space Marines, and an Inquisitorial detachment”

AnythingButOne wrote:

 JBW wrote:
I think the intent with the requirement for summoned GW models was to prevent people from green casting a bunch of models to get the new Daemon goodness in time.

There was only one player that I'm aware of that asked about that and the opponent's models were perfectly fine, third party models. They were the same size and base as the GW models.

It wasn't an issue. I think the FAQ could be clarified in the future and it's an easy fix to add.

I agree that as long as the model is an accurate representation(size, base, etc) that it should be allowed, but if it is not an accurate representation then it should not be allowed. For example, I do not think that zombies are an accurate representation of Plague Bearers as they are smaller than the PBearers, but that is a common practice Daemon players to do. Where do you draw the line though as a TO though?

Awesome tournament! I had a lot of fun! Congrats to Quality Control for winning!

The models were accurate representations for the size, base, etc. So they were allowed. If it wasn't an accurate representation then it would not have been allowed.

I think zombies are fine to represent zombies, and not anything else, because there are GW zombies. Too much confusion and reminding on the player's part.

I suggest as a TO that if you have a question about a model's validity then you should submit the model images with a GW model to the TO ahead of time. This was also the case for this particular situation.

First of all, congrats to Quality Control on their well earned victory this year.

Second, I'd like to clarify why I was one (of a couple people) shocked by the allowance of third party demon models.

I'll start by saying that I love 3rd party models and use some such as ultraforge for my GUO, but the FAQ specifically stated that summoned models HAD to be GW. My team went to great lengths to secure actual GW models and wound up being hamstrung in our selections of models to summon based on the rarity and price of some greater demons and cavalry.

When we saw we could have simply for d cheaper alternate models we were disappointed at not being afforded the opportunity to take advantage of summoning options.

With that said, it was a well run event with the only downside being the location, which did not allow alcohol.

Tag Team Uranus can't wait to return next year!

Great event; the schedule was adhered to rigidly, which was my primary concern about this event. Well done, Shane, and thanks JBW for being a judge.

 JBW wrote:

I suggest as a TO that if you have a question about a model's validity then you should submit the model images with a GW model to the TO ahead of time. This was also the case for this particular situation.

I 100% agree that this should start becoming common practice not just for Daemons, but should be done more often for all armies.

AnythingButOne wrote:

 JBW wrote:

I suggest as a TO that if you have a question about a model's validity then you should submit the model images with a GW model to the TO ahead of time. This was also the case for this particular situation.

I 100% agree that this should start becoming common practice not just for Daemons, but should be done more often for all armies.

We do this for our state event also. But we also check things like having Rulebook, Codices, GW FAQs, number of lists, and painting requirements at the registration table. If they don't have them, they don't play.

It's also a free event so I tolerate less crap. Tournament Boot Camp, it's been called.

Thanks for running the event again Shane it was a good time.

Playing Orks a weeks after they came out was a bit rough but meh I love those green dudes....

As for the other team mainly speaking about Tony Grippando's list it really was an honest mistake on their team and I don't think it is that big of a deal. Its not like he had 3 armies in his list or brought a titan or he was way over points of something.

It was just a few LOD dudes in a Necron list and should not have been a big deal. To be honest the codex should have been legal. Tony would have probably got most of the 10 points that where deducted from his earlier rounds playing without the Legion models and under points.


Oh and Quality Control is a great group of guys love me some Clauss and Nayden all day.... Congrats guys...

Until Next Year,
Alan Bajramovic

https://www.facebook.com/Terminus6Est/photos/a.1421873034735143.1073741828.1421702364752210/1454347891487657/?type=1&theater

What were the top eldar players playing? Seer council and WS spam?

Most of the eldar lists I saw were heavily stacked with wave serpents. I don't recall seeing many seer councils, though I'm sure there must have been a couple at least. Wraithknights were pretty prevalent as well.

I didn't see any seer councils either. A lot of eldar lists had 4-5 serpents and two WKs.

yeah, almost every eldar list was 4-6 serpents and 1-3 WK.

Almost all the necron lists had the catacomb command barge, 3 a barge, 10-15 wraiths and the normal 4-6 flyers.

There was a BIG variety in the SM lists- bikes, cent-stars, drop pods, razorbacks and multiple land raiders were all over the place.

Most of the daemons lists I saw had lots of fast elements like fleshounds, seekers and screamers, lots of heralds for psychic goodies and daemonettes/horrors for troops and most had soul grinders.

the majority of the teams had at least 1 list with 2+ imperial knights.

My "Eldar" List was a Beaststar, and I ended in 3rd out of the Eldar players. I'm not sure there where more then 2-3 other beast stars there.

If I took a Beaststar and didn't get 1st out of the Eldar I would be ashamed of myself! ;-)

just2fierce wrote:


Most of the daemons lists I saw had lots of fast elements like fleshounds, seekers and screamers, lots of heralds for psychic goodies and daemonettes/horrors for troops and most had soul grinders.

The number 1 demon list at the event had no screamers, no seekers, no flesh hounds, no heralds, no demonettes, and no soul grinders.

Would it be possible of a overview of what was in the top 10 lists?

Thanks,

just2fierce wrote:


Most of the daemons lists I saw had lots of fast elements like fleshounds, seekers and screamers, lots of heralds for psychic goodies and daemonettes/horrors for troops and most had soul grinders.



The number 1 demon list at the event had no screamers, no seekers, no flesh hounds, no heralds, no demonettes, and no soul grinders.

That intrigues me and I'd like to see that list. I'm guessing it was monster mash but I didn't see it during any of my walking and browsing.

1- DE with double beastpack
2- Eldar with 6 serpents(2 fire dragons) and 3 units of swooping hawks.
3- Imperial Knights
4- GK henchmen with an allied cent-star
5- Eldar with serpents and 2 wraithknights
6- Imperial Knights
7- Dark Eldar venomspam with a beastpack
8- Eldar with serpents and a pair of wraithknights, I believe
9- Imperial Knights
10- Necrons I believe was balanced with a barges, wraiths and 4-5 flyers
11- Necrons again I believe balanced
12- Space Marines with SW allies

No daemons in top 12 even with the FAQ for summoning allowing their summoned units to have OBJ SEC is pretty shocking.

I think it has to do with the nature of the event. Every round has killpoints, and summoned units are really good at dying. You have, at most, ten wounds on a T4 body (or maybe 9 wounds on a T5 body), and in either case, a 5++. Plus, if you're trying possession out, you're losing a unit to do it, and you need to do it early enough in the game to get some use out of the MC you create.

I fully expected to lose KP and first blood every game, so my realistic goal was a 20 point maximum per game - not enough to hit the top-ten (or top-thirty, for that matter) even if I pull it off each time.

The reason for playing them is that they're pretty reliable at getting those objectives, so as a list that your team puts out, you've still got a good shot at scrapping 15-20 points, regardless of what you're faced with.

yermom wrote:
No daemons in top 12 even with the FAQ for summoning allowing their summoned units to have OBJ SEC is pretty shocking.

Because summoning is just not that good, especially against armies with good mobility and firepower (i.e. Eldar, Necrons, mech/bike Marines). I think a balanced demon build would be top-10 competitive but I haven't seen someone play truly balanced demons yet at a major event.

Summoning bleeds KPs.