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Martel732 wrote:
There's no reason to go after each other on a thread like this. Don't like Helldrakes? Don't use them. I still think CSM is Codex: Helldrake, but GW made that call, not me. CSM is not a skill thing; it's a GW thing.

The bottom line in 6th is that all power armor armies kinda stink. That's what the OP needs to know. Posters on here can wring their hands and try to explain it away, but that doesn't mean they describe reality.

The reality is that every non-meq book in 6th is better than every meq book. The OP needs to know that he's getting into a list that is already in the bottom half of the available codices, and is going nowhere but down.

Thanks for your opinion. It's total hogwash, but it's your opinion.

CSM are actually quite good especially when taking daemons as an ally. I would ignore the naysayers as they have nothing useful to contribute to this thread.

DarthDiggler wrote:

Thanks for your opinion. It's total hogwash, but it's your opinion.

Wow, excellent counterpoint.

So you think the Helldrake doesn't make the CSM dex? You actually think a MEQ PA 6th ed dex is better than Tau, Eldar, Necrons, Daemons, and most likely Nids (heck, maybe even IG)? Because there's a year of tourney play and AARs that back him up.

Chaos won the 11th Company GT this year.

DarthDiggler wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
There's no reason to go after each other on a thread like this. Don't like Helldrakes? Don't use them. I still think CSM is Codex: Helldrake, but GW made that call, not me. CSM is not a skill thing; it's a GW thing.

The bottom line in 6th is that all power armor armies kinda stink. That's what the OP needs to know. Posters on here can wring their hands and try to explain it away, but that doesn't mean they describe reality.

The reality is that every non-meq book in 6th is better than every meq book. The OP needs to know that he's getting into a list that is already in the bottom half of the available codices, and is going nowhere but down.

Thanks for your opinion. It's total hogwash, but it's your opinion.

I think the evidence is in my favor.

Chaos are just way more fun to model. You have SO many options. Just let your imagination run wild. You can also upset local meta by NOT running helldrakes. So many people spam them that by not taking them you can catch your opponent off guard. I am a casual gamer and like modeling and painting more than gaming, but it's still fun to show up at the shop with my army now and then and just see what they can do. I rarely ever win unless I catch my opponent completely off guard by bringing strange lists to the table, but I take pride in my small victories. If you want to min/max chaos is not the book for you. Most of their units are fairly versatile, though, and if you use your heavy support and fast attack options properly you can still be competitive. It's almost not worth touching the elites section, though. Even though they don't really stand out in the book, Havocs and Raptors can really do some damage. Especially since your opponent is likely expecting helldrakes. Dropping in a raptor squad instead and dragging some spawn around with you will really throw people off, with havocs providing some really good long range firepower. Also, do not overlook our armor. Sure, our tanks are not the best in the world, but a well equipped predator will be a thorn in someone's side. I say get dark vengeance, then sell/trade/convert all the DA stuff for pieces you actually want. Plus hellbrutes are just fun models to paint, even if they're sort of a jack of all trades model,


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Oh, and cultists are your friends. Don't hold them back, just run them straight at the enemy. For so many cheap models (money and points wise) you get a big blob of sacrificial lambs that will let your other units move into position. By not running power armor units you can also catch your opponent off guard. As far as allies, daemons and IG can also fill this niche, while daemons can bring special tricks to the table as well as cheap infantry, and IG have some great tanks and blobs.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Chaos won the 11th Company GT this year.

A DP and a Heldrake ally certainly does not make that a CSM list

I say, make your army how you want. If you don't want to do what everyone else does and get a bunch of cultists, plague marines and helldrakes, then look around and see what else you can come up with. Maybe a biker mauler fiend army? Or whatever. Figure out what YOU want and go from there.

Looking at the new Cypher formation might be worth it too.

If you want an alternative to Helldrakes, Bikers are an excellent Fast Attack Choice. Unlike Loyalist Bikers, CSM Bikes can be given an extra close combat weapon. Add on the Mark of Nurgle for T6 or the Mark of Khorne if you really want to use them as Heavy Cavalry on Bikes. Mark of Slaanesh helps against those Pesky Eldar and don't forgot those Hammer of Wrath attacks on I10.

They also make excellent escorts/delivery systems for Jugger Lords or Nurgle Lords on Bikes. Add in two Melta Guns and you can do very well with them.

As someone already mentioned, CSM Bike-Maulerfiend-Spawn-Rhino based rush lists are a viable alternative to the ubiquitous Helldrake Spam. That being said, with all the White Scars Bike lists out there these days, people are getting lots of practice at killing bikes. However, they probably won't be used to several squadrons of Bikes assaulting them in the bottom of turn one/top of turn two.

Many AP3 heavy armies will struggle to take down 30 T6 bikers before they're in their grill, beating face. Especially if they also have Maulerfiends and Rhino mounted CSM's (with close combat weapons) to worry. Make a mass charge with your entire army in your turn two (except your objective hugging cultists off course) and you don't have to worry about about being shot off the table by fliers and template weapons.

Alas, the list is a very expensive (in terms of cash) one-trick pony, so think carefully before you invest in so many Bikers.

Black Legion is an excellent supplement.

Oh, and don't overlook marks of nurgle. They can turn a squad of plain CSM into something with some staying power. Not as tough as plague marines, but easier on the wallet a bit, and I just find the CSM plastics fun to put together and customize. And if you buy dark vengeance the otherwise overpriced chosen make really great squad leaders.

The Chosen with the mace also makes for a very good Dark Apostle or even a Chaos Lord with Black Mace. I've seen a few nice conversions with him (or rather, his torso) on a Bike too.

LeadLegion, I'm totally doing that! They have plain ole power armor so that's an easy conversion too... The Chosen could make lords and sorcerors as well, but I really like my HQ to be in terminator armor these days. A nurgle psycher in terminator armor is fun for dropping novas.