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 FlingitNow wrote:
This is my flat competitive Nids. Straight forward 10 MCs marching up the board with some suppressing fire then charge into combat and kill everything.

Tyranid Prime: Rending claws, toxin sacs 140
Hive Tyrant: Wings 200

10 Termagants 40
10 Termagants 40
10 Hormagants 50

Hive Crone 155
Hive Crone 155

Exocrine 170
3 Carnifex: 5 Devourers, 1 Crushing claws 450
3 Carnifex: 5 Devourers, 1 Crushing claws 450

I've taken a CC on each carnifex brood in case I need to ID so T5 guys and to ensure I can rip through an AV14 I'm in combat with. I was thinking of dropping wings on the Tyrant for double Devourers but between getting a psychic shooting attack and running interference with 3 FMCs. Prime is the Warlord (obviously) and hides out in a Carnifex brood.

Here is my competitive list:

Ovesa
Buffmander
- MSSS,PEN, IA, CCN, VRT
Farsight

Riptide
- velocity tracker, target lock, 2 drones
Riptide
- Ion, EWO, talisman of Moloch
Riptide
- Ion, EWO, positional relay

3 man crisis
- 3 pods, bonding knives
2x 1 man crisis
- pod, bonding knife
2x 10 kroot

2 skyrays
- Black sun filters.

This would cripple you in 2 turns. And you wont be in range of anything until turn 3 maybe.

 Ravenous D wrote:


Here is my competitive list:

Ovesa
Buffmander
- MSSS,PEN, IA, CCN, VRT
Farsight

Riptide
- velocity tracker, target lock, 2 drones
Riptide
- Ion, EWO, talisman of Moloch
Riptide
- Ion, EWO, positional relay

3 man crisis
- 3 pods, bonding knives
2x 1 man crisis
- pod, bonding knife
2x 10 kroot

2 skyrays
- Black sun filters.

This would cripple you in 2 turns. And you wont be in range of anything until turn 3 maybe.

ok Again not helping as before not help the OP out here and ok there are going to be Horrible match ups for nids, But not all lists are going to be like this one so again Help dont point out the horrible counter the the list most people already know what could be a hard counter.

That's the problem, is that there are multiple hard counters. And if its competitive you have to be prepared to face them.

Guard, Eldar, Centstar, white scars, Tau will wreck this army.


My Advice is to take more dependable options. Get rid of the Exocrine and flyrant. Keep 1 fex star and take 2 tyrannofexes. Try this instead:

Prime
3 dakka fexes
2 Tyrannofexes
120 Termagants
6 zoanthropes
1 venomthrope.

ok not to high jake the thread from the OP but what would your answer be for flyers?

 VetGrunt wrote:
ok not to high jake the thread from the OP but what would your answer be for flyers?

Dakka fexes have the best chance, besides that you can try with zoans and the Tyrannos. Or you just concede that you suck against flyers. The alternative is you take the crone and get shot to hell by quad guns and other flyers. Or tau who make a mockery out of fliers far tougher then the crone and hive tyrant.

1 crone will not help against enemy flyers, it can only fire 2 weapons at bs3, even with a reroll that's not the greatest thing. Most flyers are 3HPs and move 36" vs the 24" the crone has. Its outclassed so you might as well focus on your strengths.

Good point when you put i that way

Ovesa
Buffmander
- MSSS,PEN, IA, CCN, VRT
Farsight

Riptide
- velocity tracker, target lock, 2 drones
Riptide
- Ion, EWO, talisman of Moloch
Riptide
- Ion, EWO, positional relay

3 man crisis
- 3 pods, bonding knives
2x 1 man crisis
- pod, bonding knife
2x 10 kroot

2 skyrays
- Black sun filters.

Now that is an actual competitive O'Vesastar. You say you cripple me in 2 turns. I'm far from convinced. Sky rays kill 1 MC each (maybe, if I'm out in the open most likely if in cover odds are strongly againsy), tops 2 down 8 to go. What else is a huge threat to MCs? The rest of your army will kill what 1 maybe 2 MCs a turn between it? So yeah after turn 1 I'll be hurting bad with 3-4 MCs down. Turn 2 I'm looking at 5 MCs down and you have to start worrying. If I go first turn 3-4 and it should be pretty much all over. If you go first it depends if I get onslaught and how I can hide my Hive Tyrant.

How many times have you fought against 10 MCs with your list?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry didn't really back that last statement up. Let's assume you target the FMCs with the Skyrays and I'm in some sort of cover:

With both MLs (4/9 chance) hitting you strip cover: 6 shots 4 hits 3.33 wounds 1.67 wounds left

With 1 ML (4/9 chance) Bs5: 6 shots 5 hits 4.167 wounds 2.777 unsaved wounds (i.e. takes both Skyrays to down 1 Crone)

No MLs (1/9 chance) 6 shots 4 hits, 3.33 wounds 2.22 wounds

Kroot 20 (assuming sniper yhough that was not listed, if not this matchup just got really bad for you) in total hit on 6s vs FMC 0.556 rends 1.11 other wounds (0.37 wounds). Shooting at normal MCs (turn 2-3 onwards perhaps) 1.67 rends, 1.11 other unsaved wounds.

O'vesastar: HBC 8 shots 6 hits 3 wounds 1 unsaved wound vs normal MCs though he will mess up a Crone (puts 4 unsaved wounds on it). O'Vesa 3 shots 2.25 hits 1.5 unsaved wounds. Other Riptides will do about a wound between them if I'm in cover nearly a wound each if I'm not.

5 MPs 5 hits 1.111 unsaved wounds.

So the Skyrays should do nearly 6 wounds the rest of the army does 7-8 wounds a turn. So thats 13-14 turn 1 and assuming I do no damage about 21 (so 5 dead MCs fish) turn 2. If I go first I probably so some damage Kroot being a soft target for some of the FMCs. Then you are in real trouble. If I go second I deploy much nearer to you (unless playing Vanguard strike but then you have no lateral space to avoid me later game) but you have a chance. Cover and LoS obviously plays a big role in a shooting army vs CC army battle. If there's a big LoS blocking piece of terrain centre field you're going to really struggle.

Monster hunter from the PENchip. Reroll hits and wounds against MCs and ignores you cover and your armour. I can stay constantly out of your threat range. And even if you charge me with gaunts you might cause a wound or 2 vs the 8 I throw back.

Combo'd that after the skyrays kill or severely weaken your MCs will be marker lighting your remaining MCs for improved Bs.

HBC can overcharge to heavy 12 rending.

I rolled it out 4 times and in every case I drop your crones and tyrant, and wound your fexes. After that I can kill a fex star with little trouble.

The kroot and Crisis suits are in reserves for objective grabbing.

Also, Cover for FMCs? Doubtful, the crones have those massive flying stands. Even if they do, its can extra turn before the Ovesa points at what it wants to die. 2 Riptides can kill a Hive tyrant in combat.

If you take the Kroot and Missilesides out of it but add in the PEN chip rerolls. You do on average 3 less wounds turn 1 and turn 2. Meaning end of turn 2 you'll be looking at only 3 dead MCs and the game is up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That is just the maths what you roll in a theory hammer is not relevant unless we're on opposite sides of the table when you're getting that lucky. I'm not say Nids will Rolf stomp you but it is a match up against what is one of the top tournament builds at the moment that the Nids certainly can, and with good play and average dice should, win.

Doubtful, they have jetpacks, you'll never make range. And you cant beat them in assault.

@FlingitNow He shoots your synapse then your army is done. He can spend the rest of the game picking off units that make there IB rolls. I would love to be able to tell you that there is some hidden gem in the codex, some spark of hope that will make this codex not only playable but awesome. But there is not. I cant give you advise on what to change cause are far as I can tell, looking at the codex, there is not a single competitive list in the dex that doesn't hamstring itself to try and get enough synapse. Can you beat armies? Absolutely. Can you beat the Elder/Tau. No. Can you beat SM? Not so much but its better than taudar. Can you beat screamerstar? Actually, yes I think you can. Kinda easily actually.

How is he shooting my synapse? Hive Tyrant yeah sure but the Prime should be safe till late game when I'll have won or lost. I really think the negatitivity with this codex needs to see it in action before all the doom mongering. Heck I remember the same thing with the Tau codex and to a lesser extent the Eldar codex (though I also remember the same thing for the chaos codex and they were bang on the money there).

 FlingitNow wrote:
How is he shooting my synapse? Hive Tyrant yeah sure but the Prime should be safe till late game when I'll have won or lost. I really think the negatitivity with this codex needs to see it in action before all the doom mongering. Heck I remember the same thing with the Tau codex and to a lesser extent the Eldar codex (though I also remember the same thing for the chaos codex and they were bang on the money there).

Because like you said he kills your tyrant most likely turn 1. It going to happen. Unless you hide but you can't do that cause it just gives him more time to shoot. Then turn 2, he dumps 3 s8, ap2, ignores cover, monsterhunter large blast templates on your fex/prime unit. Plus the other riptide dumping its shots into the same squad. So that's what? 2-3 fexs dead with LoS rolls? Turn three your are alllllmost in his lines, assuming he just stood there and watched you, but he kills your prime then giggles as your fexs eat each other.

Plus if its single targets I can fire the Ion normally with its 3 s7 ap2 shots, and since you don't have much to scare my armour at range I can double shoot with the smart missiles and fusion guns. Not to mention farsights plasma rifle and the Missile drones.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Reality is, if you hide I shoot out what is available easily. You suddenly spring your crones and tyrant out turn 1 or 2 and I blast them out of the sky. You can charge me with all 3 of your troops and I will win the combat.

The more you hide the slower you are and the further your guns will be.

You are aware the Prime is an independent character? So if his brood takes heavy casualties he jumps to the next brood. Those S8 blasts probably hit 2 each, only 1 of which has MH and ignores cover. I also doubt he kills the Prime unless he's leaving at least 1 if not both Crones alive (depending on whether he successfully Nova charges the AAtide).

I actually think he's better off with the normal shooting mode. Doesnt have to worry about gets hot and will statistically do more damage than a blast that hits 2 and is more reliable. Admittedly I haven't factored in Farsights 1 shot (not making a huge difference) or the 8 shots from the drones (makes a big difference against the Crones less so against the other MCs).

Though I think I've found the game breaking cheese in the codex. How could we have all missed it? The mighty unstoppable Haruspex who if you pay for toxin on him he nearly kills 3 whole space marine on the charge and is only 170 points


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My troops will never charge anything other than your Crisis suits or perhaps Kroot and then only opportunistically. The reality is I don't think you can stop me reaching your lines with 4-6 MCs and they will kill you.

ROFL , books been out all of a half a week. And everyone already knows whats good, whats not, whats going to kill them....

Original Poster, play your list a few times and let us know how it does. At the end of the day, the players and the games out come are the only way to determine whats good and whats not hood.

Take the "Sky is falling" comments as you will. But go back in these very forms, and read how the sky was falling about Deamons Codex, Tau, Eldar... all about week after existence.

I like your list, one of the biggest things to worry about ( i know their is more) is fast moving, Volume of fire. Wave Serps, Raiders/ Ravagers. Poison might hurt, as well as as few spells that roll against leadership and do not allow saves.

Oh and Grav Guns on them Carnies / guards. Cent Devs with prescience up will hit 13 times, and wound on 3's re-rolling wounds. So make sure you are in cover.

Good luck, keep us updated with how this list works for you.

The other competitive idea I have is based on IngenuinityGap's list. Something like this:

Flyrant: double devourers, Toxin 240
Flyrant: double devourers 230

3 Zoanthropes 150

Tervigon: 195
30 Termagants 120
10 Termagants 40
10 Termagants 40

3 Carnifex: double devourers, adrenal glands 495
Exocrine: 170
Exocrine: 170

I trade 2 MCs for 20 more troops bodies and 3 Zoanthropes. But the Synapse is all out in the open but there are more sources. The Carnifexes have fleet meaning they are that bit quicker into range. Whilst 2 Exocrine offers more Ap2 firepower. This list struggles against Cronair far more than mine but has more firepower. But it also has less CC threat.

There's a lot of what if and assumptions going on here. No one will know till its on the table. My question is why you even bothered asking. Everything everyone says you just shoot down. You seem to think your bugs are invincible. Talk is cheap. Take it to a tournament.

The other option is Warriors? Are they viable now?

Something like this:

Hive Tyrant: wings, double devourers, toxin 240
Hive Tyrant: wings, double devourers, toxin 240

3 Warriors: Death spitters, Venom Cannon 110
3 Warriors: Death spitters, Venom Cannon 110
3 Warriors: Death spitters, Barbed Strangler 110

Exocrine 170
3 Dakkafexes 450
3 Dakkafexes 450

The concern I have here is the Synapse is more open and the Riptides of O'Vesastar are more efficient against it. Though it means my FMCs are better (a Flyrant is better than 2 Crones IMHO and makes target priority for AA harder). I still have 9 MCs but now all are T6 with a 3+.

I think if you run warriors, why not try a big block of 6-9 with DS, and take a prime IC attached. Thats a nice Synapse bubble, assault 3, str 5 guns on each all firing at BS 4.

FlingitNow wrote:(though I also remember the same thing for the chaos codex and they were bang on the money there).

Well, except that Chaos has finished at or near the top of every major tournament in 6th. Yes, it lacks options, but people said the Helldrake was bad for almost a month after the codex dropped.

Tau were considered "overpriced," "even worse against CC armies," and "the Riptide was too expensive/gimmicky for what it does."

Eldar were considered "screwed without Runes," and, "Phil Kelly ruined his pet army." Oh, and it took a while for people to figure out the Wave Serpent. Once again, people said it was too expensive for a low armored transport.

People said Daemons were a mess, but they win with threat saturation (like Tyranids are meant to).

Tyranids don't have uber-tough-to-kill units. They are cheap and expendable...exactly like their fluff. They won't have a Helldrake, or a mini-army like a squad of Grey Hunters. They create questions the other player has to answer.

Play it and find out for yourself. Other people who know nothing about the book will just say it's bad. I've personally never lost to a Tau player in 6th edition with the last book or this one. But that's because they believe the impossible/perfect counter games they type out here (and probably only play bad players). It's fun to drop pie plates in their deployment zone and have Spore Mines floating around back there so they can't castle in a corner. It's hilarious when a Broodlord pins them down for a turn. I like it when all my monsters were "supposed" to be dead on turn 2, but 3/4 of them make it into combat.

Figure out how to play the match. List/theory-hammer is usually the sign of people who don't play the game. They talk about it.

 brassangel wrote:

FlingitNow wrote:(though I also remember the same thing for the chaos codex and they were bang on the money there).

Well, except that Chaos has finished at or near the top of every major tournament in 6th. Yes, it lacks options, but people said the Helldrake was bad for almost a month after the codex dropped.

Tau were considered "overpriced," "even worse against CC armies," and "the Riptide was too expensive/gimmicky for what it does."

Eldar were considered "screwed without Runes," and, "Phil Kelly ruined his pet army." Oh, and it took a while for people to figure out the Wave Serpent. Once again, people said it was too expensive for a low armored transport.

People said Daemons were a mess, but they win with threat saturation (like Tyranids are meant to).

Tyranids don't have uber-tough-to-kill units. They are cheap and expendable...exactly like their fluff. They won't have a Helldrake, or a mini-army like a squad of Grey Hunters. They create questions the other player has to answer.

Play it and find out for yourself. Other people who know nothing about the book will just say it's bad. I've personally never lost to a Tau player in 6th edition with the last book or this one. But that's because they believe the impossible/perfect counter games they type out here (and probably only play bad players). It's fun to drop pie plates in their deployment zone and have Spore Mines floating around back there so they can't castle in a corner. It's hilarious when a Broodlord pins them down for a turn. I like it when all my monsters were "supposed" to be dead on turn 2, but 3/4 of them make it into combat.

Figure out how to play the match. List/theory-hammer is usually the sign of people who don't play the game. They talk about it.

good points all

The key thing is playing the game the theory hammerers roll dice based on their entire army shooting whatever they want with no cover or just 5+ cover and a real game against a player that isn't a moron doesn't work like that.

I can see Deathleaper becoming an auto-include (certainly would be if he was Elite though HQ seems fairly over loaded). I can see little units of 5 Stealers with Broodlord running interference. Heck in game perhaps the Haruspex will be useable due to its unkillable nature (though I strongly doubt it). I have a suspicion the Exocrine will prove hugely effective. We'll just see.