People's opinions on new codexes: examining the historical record

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**Elemental**

cvtuttle wrote:

This is an excellent post and makes some really solid points. Basically the question is "Is the Nid codex in balance?" Or "Are the Tau, Eldar, Demons out of balance?"

The problem then is that nearly everyone except Tyranids can ally with one or more of them.

**Breng77**

People really overrate screamer star. It is an annoying tactic. But Tyranids could/can deal with it pretty easily (SITW stopping psychic powers, tarpitting with hordes of bugs etc.).

Really it is Tau and Eldar that throw everything out of whack.

I think if 6th Ed was

CSM (maybe minus Heldrake FAQ)
DA
Daemons (maybe with fixed screamer star)
SM
Nids

People would be pretty happy with the game as far as balance was concerned. Tau and Eldar really are the biggest issues. And of those I think Eldar would be the easier fix. Make serpent shield just a shield. Fix seer council, and the book is pretty balanced. Tau IMO would need a lot of work to be balanced with the other books in 6th simply due to the huge amount of fire power it is capable of putting out in comparison to every other book.

**BlaxicanX**

Breng77 wrote:
People really overrate screamer star. It is an annoying tactic. But Tyranids could/can deal with it pretty easily (SITW stopping psychic powers, tarpitting with hordes of bugs etc.).

Really it is Tau and Eldar that throw everything out of whack.

I think if 6th Ed was

CSM (maybe minus Heldrake FAQ)
DA
Daemons (maybe with fixed screamer star)
SM
Nids

People would be pretty happy with the game as far as balance was concerned. Tau and Eldar really are the biggest issues. And of those I think Eldar would be the easier fix. Make serpent shield just a shield. Fix seer council, and the book is pretty balanced. Tau IMO would need a lot of work to be balanced with the other books in 6th simply due to the huge amount of fire power it is capable of putting out in comparison to every other book.

The grimoire of true names is not a psychic ability and does not require a leadership test to work; furthermore, Fateweaver/Tzeentch daemons' ability to re-roll isn't a psychic ability either. Furthermore, Daemons of Tzeentch automatically get a +3 to their leadership for psychic tests because they're DoT, which cancels out SitW entirely. So Heralds are casting forewarning at Ld8 rather than 10, not really a huge deal.

So how exactly does a -3 to leadership (SitW's ability) hamper screamerstar at all? They're still getting their re-rollable save.

**Breng77**

ummm....casting on LD 8? So forewarning Fails 28% (instead of 8%) of the time? At which point they only get a 3++ re-roll 1s. It also hurts their abilities to cast other powers (which is where the damage from the squad comes from). Sure they still might get it...but nids have a better chance than every army save space wovles. Throw in hordes of fearless models that can tarpit the star (especially if they can roll up Paroxysm, or Feel no pain). They have the ability to also kill Fateweaver (either using thier own FMCs or just lots of shots).

Again, the point was that screamer star is essentially a non-issue for nids...always has been.

**Paradigm**

cvtuttle wrote:
Paradigm wrote:
An interesting summary to say the least, and perhaps does show something. However, there are a couple of qualifiers I'd like to throw into the mix:

Eldar players suffered for a long time, going from weak in 5th Ed and worse in 6th (with the 4th ed codex) to top-of-the-game with the new codex. The point being, by the time the Eldar update rolled around, anything would have been an improvement. Compare that to nids, where despite the complaining they were very effective with some builds in 5th and 6th. Nids got a boost just from the 6th Ed BRB, with FMC and Smash making MC's far more useful, and the tervigon staying amazing. So there was far less of a gap in respective power levels from one to the next. Unfortunately, we exist in a meta where, due to the failure to balance a couple of codexes, those who get a book that is in line with most of the others (From what I've read, Nids could take on CSM, DA, and SM in a fair fight, and also do well against non-netlists Tau/Eldar/Demons) then there is cries of complaint.

I'd also add that when the Eldar book came out, it was following CSM, and DA, and Demons were still struggling to find their feet. Tau were the clear winners of 6th at that point, with CSM and DA, as well as CD to some extent, appearing mediocre in comparison. As such, the 'average power level' for 6th Ed dexes was 3 average to 1 above average, so Eldar fit in the latter and are therefore seen as great. Nids, on the other hand, come at a point where Tau and Eldar rule the shooting game, Demons have found a single gimmick that works exceptionally well (Screamerstar) and SM can pull some very anti-MC stunts with grav-bikers/cents. So whereas the eldar release had 3 codexes as average and then 1 above, Nids are released at a point where 3 codexes are average, but 3 are also more powerful than the previous baseline. So the 'expected' power level is higher, and while nids are more than capable of handling half the 6th Ed codexes, 1 build from each of the 'above average' dexes makes them appear weak. It's a case of more and better competition making Nids seem worse, despite actually being in line with what used to be the norm.

As a final point, I would also say that, from initial reading of forums, Nids seem to be a very capable army. They can take CSM, DA and most SM builds on in a fair fight, and contrary to popular belief, there are people who play tau without Triptides, Eldar without Serpent Spam, and Demons without Screamerstar, and Nids look to be capable of beating those codexes when they aren't relying on the netlist crutches.

So really, it's all a matter of perception. SM, DA, CSM and now Nids, as well as Tau without spam and Demons without a gimmick, are all roughly the same level, but it's seen as worse as unfortunately, there is a prevailing belief that the only lists you see are GT-OP-netlists, so anything that doesn't have a 'take me now and win' unit (which is in fact an indicator of poor internal balance) is perceived as a failure, when in fact it is a triumph, bringing the army up to speed without breaking it, which is something Tau, Eldar and Demons failed to achieve.

I fully expect that, in the next few codexes, there will be a complete overhaul for the long-overdue orks, but IG, SW, BA, GK and DE will just be brought into line with 6th, have costs updated, and will be far more a nid-style update than an eldar-style one.

This is an excellent post and makes some really solid points. Basically the question is "Is the Nid codex in balance?" Or "Are the Tau, Eldar, Demons out of balance?"

To be honest, I'm not even sure I'd go that far. Tau without maxed/spammed Riptides are about the same level as the rest, as are Demons without 2++ re-rollable tricks or FMC shenanigans (maybe even sub par, I've little experience against them), and while eldar have some tricks that are very rough (pseudo-rending on everything is a little over-the-top) and their transports are inherently powerful, but only 'broken' if spammed.

So really, 6th Ed on the whole is only unbalanced by those who go looking for those combos and then exploit the hell out of them. I've said this a fair bit recently, but the likes of 2++ rerollable tricks is really just a product of GW expecting people to play casual, narrative games rather than go to break them, so they don't test for such tricks.

I don't know who wrote the demon book, but I'd be willing to bet they didn't write the Grimore in with the expectation people would seek to use it in concert with fatey and forewarning. Without either of those, the item is fine, it's only when used in that combo that it becomes an issue, and I'm certain no one at GW predicted or particularly wanted people to use it in that combo.

**Breng77**

The issue is the attitude though that "Oh well things aren't broken if you don't take the broken stuff" is a bit silly. I can see it on the Daemon thing...but what about seer council? They did not think that randomly people would happen upon 2+ re-rolls?

As to the rest...it is a myth that Tau without Spamed riptides are on a level with the rest. There are plenty of Tau armies with 1 riptide that still level other books regularly. Tau have some of the best shooting troops (if no the best) in the game, that synergize to a crazy level within their own book. Broadsides are super powerful. Crisis teams are also very strong.

**Paradigm**

Yes, tau have the best shooting. They're supposed to have the best shooting, as per the fluff. The trade-off for this is that they crumple in close combat to anything better than a gretchin, and contrary to popular belief, there are plenty of ways to get there. But anyway, that's a tangent, so I'll leave it there.

**Breng77**

They actually don't crumple in CC nearly so much as people believe, and getting to CC with anything meaningful on the Tau side is extremely difficult if possible at all. I have no problem with them being good at shooting, but they currently break a lot of game rules in doing so that makes them much stronger than most other armies.

**Crazy_Carnifex**

to the OP: Awesome thread; Dakka needs more like this.

**BlaxicanX**

Breng77 wrote:
ummm....casting on LD 8? So forewarning Fails 28% (instead of 8%) of the time? At which point they only get a 3++ re-roll 1s. It also hurts their abilities to cast other powers (which is where the damage from the squad comes from). Sure they still might get it...but nids have a better chance than every army save space wovles. Throw in hordes of fearless models that can tarpit the star (especially if they can roll up Paroxysm, or Feel no pain). They have the ability to also kill Fateweaver (either using thier own FMCs or just lots of shots).

And? You're acting like a 28% fail chance is massive; in which case your're objectively wrong- it's barely more than a quarter of the time, and even if it fails they're still getting a 3++ invulnerable save that re-rolls on a 1... meaning that they're only stuck on a 2.

A 28% fail chance does not make it a "non-issue". Hopeful thinking.

**ZebioLizard2**

Breng77 wrote:
People really overrate screamer star. It is an annoying tactic. But Tyranids could/can deal with it pretty easily (SITW stopping psychic powers, tarpitting with hordes of bugs etc.).

Really it is Tau and Eldar that throw everything out of whack.

I think if 6th Ed was

CSM (maybe minus Heldrake FAQ)
DA
Daemons (maybe with fixed screamer star)
SM
Nids

People would be pretty happy with the game as far as balance was concerned. Tau and Eldar really are the biggest issues. And of those I think Eldar would be the easier fix. Make serpent shield just a shield. Fix seer council, and the book is pretty balanced. Tau IMO would need a lot of work to be balanced with the other books in 6th simply due to the huge amount of fire power it is capable of putting out in comparison to every other book.

DA would still be complaining about White Scars invalidating Ravenwing. However Deathwing would be happier.

CSM would still be complaining about the fact that nearly half of the dex is useless. Though happier that MEQ on the tabletop aren't that bad anymore.

Nids..Yeah even in balance they are pretty bad compared to the old dex, but venomthrope users would be more cheerful.

Monobuild daemons for Khorne would still be pretty mad, as well as those awful rules with the Chariot.

Space Marines...Uh, they would be happier with tactical? I'm not honestly sure what their problems are outside of the OP dex.

**BlaxicanX**

Space Marines are the most balanced army in 6th edition, imo.

It's the meta that screws them, rather than any specific failing in their balance.

**BoomWolf**

Interesting thing I noticed on the nid codex crying...

Nobody seems to have a damn clue how new synapse works!

They didn't even bother to READ it, because they assumed it works like old codex.

GUESS WHAT? IT DOES NOT!

You get to take a leadership test first.

Your Ld10 MCs? can do fine without. chances are, you won't even roll on the table. and when you do, it might not even bother you.

The fearless point-blank shooters with "hunt"? they dont mind much, they can't charge, but they still walk and shoot, and they probably don't want to charge.

The loners with "feed"? hardly any penalty at all, they can't shoot, but odds are they got a lousy gun if any.

Half the complaints revolves around how its now "lose synapse, lose the game", but there are not only many synapse generators across the book, but many, MANY who don't care much and keep going as usual even if they fail a test, and even a few that don't even have instinctive behavior at all.
You can work around synapse just fine. heck, you can run a list without a single critter that cares for it.

**Melissia**

And for all that effort, nothing of value was produced.

Boomwolf: Curious, can you go more in depth? Would be nice to get a summary for this sort of thing.

**jifel**

BoomWolf wrote:
Interesting thing I noticed on the nid codex crying...

Nobody seems to have a damn clue how new synapse works!

They didn't even bother to READ it, because they assumed it works like old codex.

GUESS WHAT? IT DOES NOT!

You get to take a leadership test first.

Your Ld10 MCs? can do fine without. chances are, you won't even roll on the table. and when you do, it might not even bother you.

The fearless point-blank shooters with "hunt"? they dont mind much, they can't charge, but they still walk and shoot, and they probably don't want to charge.

The loners with "feed"? hardly any penalty at all, they can't shoot, but odds are they got a lousy gun if any.

Half the complaints revolves around how its now "lose synapse, lose the game", but there are not only many synapse generators across the book, but many, MANY who don't care much and keep going as usual even if they fail a test, and even a few that don't even have instinctive behavior at all.
You can work around synapse just fine. heck, you can run a list without a single critter that cares for it.

Instinctive Behavior has always been conditional of first failing a LD check. That's not the problem. The problem is that our staple troops are leadership 6, which makes failing that LD quite likely. (more than 50%) Most of our MCs don't care about it all. If they're solo and fearless, they ignore the 1-3 and 4-5 + 6 are not crippling, just annoying and occasionally useful. Really, its the small bu problem. And that's our troops... Take out our synapse and our Termagants have a 29% chance of falling back completely without even being shot out. Shoot at them and they are twice as likely to fall back! Hormagaunts have a 29% of LOSING HALF THE UNIT IMMEDIATELY, which then triggers another leadership check, which they have less than 50% chance of passing. Sure, an Exocrine doesn't give two craps, the problem is that our troops do, and those matter a little bit. Competitive lists that want to win a tournament need to minimize this through one of two ways. 1. Spam Synapse 2. Spam resilient units. If you have a ton of synapse (2 in HQ, zoanthropes, trygon Primes, Warriors, Tervigons, etc.) you can survive. Otherwise, take resilient squads. MSU Stealer spam for objectives and warriors, these troops won't fall back. Solo monstrous creatures don't care much, avoid low LD units.

TLDR: I disagree in that most people do understand synapse, it's just a weakness. However, I do understand in that there are ways to mitigate this, and I believe they will be the best builds. Either tons of synapse, or pick units that are affected the least.

**Andilus Greatsword**

jifel wrote:
BoomWolf wrote:
Interesting thing I noticed on the nid codex crying...

Nobody seems to have a damn clue how new synapse works!

They didn't even bother to READ it, because they assumed it works like old codex.

GUESS WHAT? IT DOES NOT!

You get to take a leadership test first.

Your Ld10 MCs? can do fine without. chances are, you won't even roll on the table. and when you do, it might not even bother you.

The fearless point-blank shooters with "hunt"? they dont mind much, they can't charge, but they still walk and shoot, and they probably don't want to charge.

The loners with "feed"? hardly any penalty at all, they can't shoot, but odds are they got a lousy gun if any.

Half the complaints revolves around how its now "lose synapse, lose the game", but there are not only many synapse generators across the book, but many, MANY who don't care much and keep going as usual even if they fail a test, and even a few that don't even have instinctive behavior at all.
You can work around synapse just fine. heck, you can run a list without a single critter that cares for it.

Instinctive Behavior has always been conditional of first failing a LD check. That's not the problem. The problem is that our staple troops are leadership 6, which makes failing that LD quite likely. (more than 50%) Most of our MCs don't care about it all. If they're solo and fearless, they ignore the 1-3 and 4-5 + 6 are not crippling, just annoying and occasionally useful. Really, its the small bu problem. And that's our troops... Take out our synapse and our Termagants have a 29% chance of falling back completely without even being shot out. Shoot at them and they are twice as likely to fall back! Hormagaunts have a 29% of LOSING HALF THE UNIT IMMEDIATELY, which then triggers another leadership check, which they have less than 50% chance of passing. Sure, an Exocrine doesn't give two craps, the problem is that our troops do, and those matter a little bit. Competitive lists that want to win a tournament need to minimize this through one of two ways. 1. Spam Synapse 2. Spam resilient units. If you have a ton of synapse (2 in HQ, zoanthropes, trygon Primes, Warriors, Tervigons, etc.) you can survive. Otherwise, take resilient squads. MSU Stealer spam for objectives and warriors, these troops won't fall back. Solo monstrous creatures don't care much, avoid low LD units.

TLDR: I disagree in that most people do understand synapse, it's just a weakness. However, I do understand in that there are ways to mitigate this, and I believe they will be the best builds. Either tons of synapse, or pick units that are affected the least.

I believe the Nids had IB similar to the Lurk rule in 4th ed. I was only getting into Nids at the time and so my HQ Warrior squad got annihilated by Leman Russes off the bat, meaning that my Gaunt units struggled to pass a Ld check and stop running away all game... it wasn't fun at all. Basically, this new IB seems to be a throwback to that.

**gwarsh41**

I remember over on warseer, there were more than a few long time daemon players selling their armies.

I think the reception on the book comes from which god you liked most, or if you were WAAC.

WAAC people hate change, so they hate every new book.
Everyone was a bit peeved at the loss of EW army wide.
Lack of EW lead to annoyance at the daemon prince.
Everyone was peeved that their favorite named characters were changed (and most rendered useless)
Khorne players were pissed because juggers were hit with the bat, but they overlooked khorne dogs because they didn't have power weapons.
Tzeentch players were peeved because screamers and flamers got hit with the bat, as did chariot heralds and pink horrors got hit hard.
Nurgle players were ticked that PBs became T4, but getting a new cool unit is nice, and everyone was pretty excited about marked soul grinders, beasts also had a throughout looking at.
Slaanesh players seemed pretty happy/OK. Yes, anger at no named greater daemon. Fiends were looked at and thought to be good, nettes and seekers were thought good too. Chariot had people mixed (if I remember right)
Everyone swore to the 4 gods that every single army would HAVE to have a skull cannon for assault grenades.
Cant remember reaction to soul grinders, pretty sure it was positive though.

Overall, reaction to daemons was:
THIS WARPSTORM TABLE IS bs
DAEMONIC INSTABILITY IS CRAP
Then lots of cursing at the author.

Now daemons are seen as top tier, and your opponent fears the warp storm table as much, if not more than the daemon player.

**techsoldaten**

This is good research and meta about this community. Real brass ring stuff here.

People have very different recollections of events after they occur especially when they are nameless, faceless discussions. I can see how people are not going to be able to reconnect with their emotional state at any given point. I think we have amnesia when it comes to our feelings, and this is a little bit of proof in that direction.

A couple of ways to expand your research come to mind:

1) Total volume of threads about a new release

2) Other codexes

Like, I think you could build a business out of examining the attitudes of communities around new product releases, and potentially market this data. GW is an insular brand b/c they own their IP but there are ways this could be used.

**Breng77**

BlaxicanX wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
ummm....casting on LD 8? So forewarning Fails 28% (instead of 8%) of the time? At which point they only get a 3++ re-roll 1s. It also hurts their abilities to cast other powers (which is where the damage from the squad comes from). Sure they still might get it...but nids have a better chance than every army save space wovles. Throw in hordes of fearless models that can tarpit the star (especially if they can roll up Paroxysm, or Feel no pain). They have the ability to also kill Fateweaver (either using thier own FMCs or just lots of shots).

And? You're acting like a 28% fail chance is massive; in which case your're objectively wrong- it's barely more than a quarter of the time, and even if it fails they're still getting a 3++ invulnerable save that re-rolls on a 1... meaning that they're only stuck on a 2.

A 28% fail chance does not make it a "non-issue". Hopeful thinking.

I'm thinking that a 1/4 chance of them failing to be invincible (3+ re-roll 1s is slightly worse than a 2+ save, so you can kill screamers at that point and weaken the screamer star. ) is a fairly big deal when it typically is 1/12 chance of failing. So it helps...is it a hard counter no its not. But again you can easily tarpit the star with nids and if they fail a test you'll begin to do damage. Like I said....nids didn't have an issue with screamerstar in their old book and they still really don't.

**Ninjacommando**

Andilus Greatsword wrote:
I believe the Nids had IB similar to the Lurk rule in 4th ed. I was only getting into Nids at the time and so my HQ Warrior squad got annihilated by Leman Russes off the bat, meaning that my Gaunt units struggled to pass a Ld check and stop running away all game... it wasn't fun at all. Basically, this new IB seems to be a throwback to that.

IB was better in the 4th ed dex, when IB happened, you either Roll leadership to act normal (failing, fall back towards closest Synapse creature) or lurk (no roll you just got +1 cover save, and unit can't claim an objective or table quater)

Just looking through the 4th ed dex reminds me of how strong stuff was back then..
Synapse giving you an immunity from ID from weapons double strength of toughness

Venomcannons being Str+2 ap 4 Assault X

168 point carnifex that had 4 Str 10 shots that could also pop out a spore mine a turn

14 pt warriors

the worst part is looking on the back at the price tag.. $20...