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I like horrors and tzeench in general, that said, horrors has some issues that can be really annoying.
Low BS is one problem (could be fixed by a herald though).
Giving out fnp is another, everything with T 4+ get absurd fnp against me. Nurgle marines are almost impossible to kill.
Also, you could end up with just a handfull of shots, or the whole thing get denied.

At the same time they have some really nice treats, like the fact that only one model need line of sight, the rest can stand behind a corner or whatever, and they still fire at full power.

Boosted by a herald, horrors are a devastating unit. Its just that they are darn unreliable. At most games, as the final turns come around, you find they have done something to seriously mess up your chanses of winning. Great fun unit!

 Kain wrote:

herpguy wrote:
I think it's funny how when the codex first came out everybody thought plaguebearers were the best troops hands down. Now the meta has shifted to where everybody sees that horrors and daemonettes are clearly better.

Bearers are pretty much defense only due to how slowly they move. And the Daemons just aren't an army that is terribly suited for defensive play. They're not bad so much as Horrors and Daemonettes just fit the army much better. Though being as slow as they are with only melee weapons does hurt quite a bit.

Frrom how I remember the release, Daemonettes and PB were considered the best, horrors second with letter's and nurglings not even qualifying for a mention.
All that's changed is that Horrors are more appreciated and the defensive ability of Plaugebearers, while great, doesn't suit the armies playstyle as much and so they swapped places.

herpguy wrote:
I think it's funny how when the codex first came out everybody thought plaguebearers were the best troops hands down. Now the meta has shifted to where everybody sees that horrors and daemonettes are clearly better.

When codex daemons was released we didn't have buffmanders and serpent shield to worry about. The Meta has massively shifted towards armies with easy access to cheap ignores cover shots. Its understandable why plague bearers have become less valued.

I don't think horrors are 'clearly better', perhaps just 'clearly better suited to the meta'. In the same.way that a 4+ save would be better than a 3+ if they gave every space marine a grav -gun upgrade for 1ppm

I think the biggest reason everyone jumped on Horrors over Plaguebearers over time is that Wave Serpents and Tau make a mockey of Plaguebearers. Shrouded Troops purely suited for defence are nice at their points cost, but when the top tier armies laugh at cover saves, they aren't going to last long. Hence why people started swapping to Horrors because they do a lot of damage and still fit in the mostly Tzeentch themed top-tier lists you see in tournaments.

herpguy wrote:
I think it's funny how when the codex first came out everybody thought plaguebearers were the best troops hands down. Now the meta has shifted to where everybody sees that horrors and daemonettes are clearly better.

They're still amazing objective campers, they are just limited on things they can do but I think its always worth it to take one unit to sit in the back in some ruins and never be uprooted.

I posted this thread a while ago: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/558623.page

I agree with it, that horrors overall are the best pick. However 2nd place should be daemonettes.

daemonettes hands down, place your objectives on the opponents side of the table and rush up with mass daemonettes with a keeper of secrets between daemonette blobs and 2 slaanesh princes. watch your opponent cringe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
horrors are terribly situational. pass a psychic test, make it through deny the witch, roll to hit with a bad bs, roll to wound, watch your opponent roll saving throws...

While I'm not going to claim they're world beaters, I'm just going to throw out a shout for Nurglings.

Infiltrate them and due to the distance and angles, you'll be conferring a cover save onto a much wider part of your line than deploying other ways, which is super useful if you've got other Nurgle units in your list.

Sure, they're easy to deal with if your opponent has the right kit in the right place, but they are a nightmare for a unit that hasn't got the strength or weapons to ID them, Firewarriors, Guard, Dire Avengers, Necron Immortals have all fallen before the might of my 6 bases of little bastards, I might use the Book on them one day, just for lols.

But seriously, Nettes or Horrors are the best choices if you want to win consistently.

Django_Unchained wrote:
daemonettes hands down, place your objectives on the opponents side of the table and rush up with mass daemonettes with a keeper of secrets between daemonette blobs and 2 slaanesh princes. watch your opponent cringe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
horrors are terribly situational. pass a psychic test, make it through deny the witch, roll to hit with a bad bs, roll to wound, watch your opponent roll saving throws...

Horrors are actually the most versatile daemon choice, far from situational. Sure the shooting can sometimes fail, sometimes it can utterly destroy things. Welcome to daemons.
However, they are the only shooting unit available, are only slightly less durable then plaguebearers when going to ground (and actually better vs str 6 or cover ignoring attacks) and can still run if needs be.

Daemonettes on the other hand are 3rd worst choice for holding objectives (beating bloodletters simply because of the 1 point cost difference), and are incredibly vulnerable when trying to get into cc.

Daemonettes have their uses, this is certain. I find they are great for spawning out of the portalglyph to quickly contest or hold objectives. They are good at taking down MCs or running onto objectives.

However for play not centred around bumrushing the enemy, and general gameplay, horrors provide a more well rounded, and durable scoring unit.

I use my troops for holding objectives. Keeping them alive is key to winning games. I don't see how you would do this and still get some use out of your troops if you are only using daemonettes.
My FMCs and grinders are there to destroy things, the horrors job is to put out a little shooting, if they can, whilst staying alive.

the only competitive way to play daemons is use their speed and bum rush the enemy. also, if you're using grinders you're doing it wrong. here are the best daemon troops in order:

1. daemonettes
2. pink horrors
3. plague bearers
4. bloodletters

Flying circus and screamer star don't necessarily rush. They can be played more tactfully if needed to. Dogpile must rush.

Grinders are great. How is using them in any way "wrong"? Sometimes people don''t want to play flying circus. They are the best heavy choice outside of DPs, and I would rate them both just as good for their respective points values.

I would swap the top 2 choices on your list.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Flying circus and screamer star don't necessarily rush. They can be played more tactfully if needed to. Dogpile must rush.

Grinders are great. How is using them in any way "wrong"? Sometimes people don''t want to play flying circus. They are the best heavy choice outside of DPs, and I would rate them both just as good for their respective points values.

I would swap the top 2 choices on your list.

I too like soulgrinders, flying daemon spam is only so fun and that only so is not very. Grinders are pretty ba and fantastic in cc.

Django_Unchained wrote:
the only competitive way to play daemons is use their speed and bum rush the enemy. also, if you're using grinders you're doing it wrong.

This is just wrong though. Part of the reason daemons are so good is that they can become completely unkillable if you try. Fateweaver, Soul Grinder, PBs, GTG Horrors, and the grimoire just ignore most shooting ,aking most of your opponants units just useless as they fumble around trying to do any damage is they get obliterated by your army.

soul grinders have horrid bs and aren't making it to combat prior to turn 3, they're susceptible to a pot shot explosion and are sub par at anti air. slaanesh daemon princes on the other hand have a great chance at iron arm and fly thus their quicker and more durable. also, with iron arm they're firing 2d6 str 7-9 shots at bs 5. these guys are better heavy options than soul grinders in every way.

the biggest strength of daemons are their speed and threat factor. the people on here disagreeing with this are casuals and not tourney goers

Django_Unchained wrote:
soul grinders have horrid bs and aren't making it to combat prior to turn 3, they're susceptible to a pot shot explosion and are sub par at anti air. slaanesh daemon princes on the other hand have a great chance at iron arm and fly thus their quicker and more durable. also, with iron arm they're firing 2d6 str 7-9 shots at bs 5. these guys are better heavy options than soul grinders in every way.

the biggest strength of daemons are their speed and threat factor. the people on here disagreeing with this are casuals and not tourney goers

What a lol-wothy comment.
If you want to just list weaknesses then fine.

Daemon princes cost more than double the points of a soulgrinder when fully upgraded. They are susceptible to Instant death weapons. Iron arm counters this, however you only have a 50% chance of getting it, and even then you are a psyker with LD9, which means you will sometimes fail. Add into this SW rune priests and shadow in the warp nids, that iron arm is not always going to be there.
Daemon princes are only T5 and W4, meaning they are only as durable as SM bikes if they end up in a bad position. If you roll badly for powers and gifts, you have a very expensive and not too durable unit.
They cannot get grenades, so are vulnerable to when charging units in cover.

See how pointless doing that is? Still, lets address some of these:

soul grinders have horrid bs

Torrent flamers and pie plates don't care.

aren't making it to combat prior to turn 3

They move exactly the same speed as the daemonettes you were advocating. Tun 2 charge is not off the cards either.

they're susceptible to a pot shot explosion

Sure, as is every vehicle in the game. Daemon princes are weaker to small arms fire and instant death. Everything should have a weakness.

sub par at anti air

They are not as good as a lash daemon, sure. But they can still attempt to damage flyers and bring down FMC's. No one is claiming they are great at anti air, but they can have a go if needs be.

To be honest. I don't think you have ever played grinders. They can fill many roles that other daemons units cannot.

Lets say your DP wants to charge a squad of tau firewarriors buffed with an ethereal. Next to them are 2 more squads of 12 firewawrriors. They will put out 108 shots on overwatch, which will equal on average 3 wounds on your prince. The grinder will take nothing.
How about a squad of grey knights in cover that you need to remove? Your army doesn't have grenades, and those force weapons will cut down your DP if he tries. The grinder has no problem.

They are a versatile tool box for a daemons player. Not every list needs to be a flying circus and spam FMCs.

Of the heavy support picks outside of DP's, they are the best.

I'm not saying DPs are bad here. They are great. But you should consider other options besides them.

So yeah, on the Soul Grinder thing they are extremely good. I would also further that by saying not one Daemon rush list has won a major event (FMC and Screamerstar are not rush lists and you lose if you play them as if they are). You cannot rush the top armies in this game. Soul Grinders help a lot here by forcing gunlines to spread out (which makes Tau able to be assaulted.). Nurgle Grinders are more durable than most DPs and far less expensive (almost 1/2 the cost) and don't require the purchase of a greater Daemon (which except for Tzeentch, most armies don't include) So that is even more points.

Just using the 3 fire warrior squad example above...a plegm grinder ensures that they are not just standing within 6" for Supporting fire otherwise they eat pie plates.

Also the statement that an opponent will cringe when facing a mass of Daemonettes, a Keeper, and 2 DPs is almost laughable against top armies. They'll wipe that out in a turn or 2 if you run straight into them.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Django_Unchained wrote:
soul grinders have horrid bs and aren't making it to combat prior to turn 3, they're susceptible to a pot shot explosion and are sub par at anti air. slaanesh daemon princes on the other hand have a great chance at iron arm and fly thus their quicker and more durable. also, with iron arm they're firing 2d6 str 7-9 shots at bs 5. these guys are better heavy options than soul grinders in every way.

the biggest strength of daemons are their speed and threat factor. the people on here disagreeing with this are casuals and not tourney goers

What a lol-wothy comment.
If you want to just list weaknesses then fine.

Daemon princes cost more than double the points of a soulgrinder when fully upgraded. They are susceptible to Instant death weapons. Iron arm counters this, however you only have a 50% chance of getting it, and even then you are a psyker with LD9, which means you will sometimes fail. Add into this SW rune priests and shadow in the warp nids, that iron arm is not always going to be there.
Daemon princes are only T5 and W4, meaning they are only as durable as SM bikes if they end up in a bad position. If you roll badly for powers and gifts, you have a very expensive and not too durable unit.
They cannot get grenades, so are vulnerable to when charging units in cover.

See how pointless doing that is? Still, lets address some of these:

soul grinders have horrid bs

Torrent flamers and pie plates don't care.

aren't making it to combat prior to turn 3

They move exactly the same speed as the daemonettes you were advocating. Tun 2 charge is not off the cards either.

they're susceptible to a pot shot explosion

Sure, as is every vehicle in the game. Daemon princes are weaker to small arms fire and instant death. Everything should have a weakness.

sub par at anti air

They are not as good as a lash daemon, sure. But they can still attempt to damage flyers and bring down FMC's. No one is claiming they are great at anti air, but they can have a go if needs be.

To be honest. I don't think you have ever played grinders. They can fill many roles that other daemons units cannot.

Lets say your DP wants to charge a squad of tau firewarriors buffed with an ethereal. Next to them are 2 more squads of 12 firewawrriors. They will put out 108 shots on overwatch, which will equal on average 3 wounds on your prince. The grinder will take nothing.
How about a squad of grey knights in cover that you need to remove? Your army doesn't have grenades, and those force weapons will cut down your DP if he tries. The grinder has no problem.

They are a versatile tool box for a daemons player. Not every list needs to be a flying circus and spam FMCs.

Of the heavy support picks outside of DP's, they are the best.

I'm not saying DPs are bad here. They are great. But you should consider other options besides them.

A iron armed slaanesh prince isn't dying to small arms fire unless you're talking Dark Eldar. No soulgrinder lists are making top tables at GT's. Soul grinders are ok if you're looking for a heavy option other than DP for the sake of not wanting to run FMC, however, if you are looking for a competitive build, you're better off taking Daemon Princes any day than soul grinders. Lastly, only a moron would charge into the firewarrior group you described. If the player's smart they'll have a Tzeentch DP to back with the slaanesh ones, combine that with fateweaver and the flickering fire shots will obliterate those fire warrior squads. keep the DPs in the air as utility, nuking tanks and fliers and riptides, once those are taken care of and you soften the fire warrior squads that's when you charge. Based on that statement you made, you've obviously no idea how to correctly play your daemon princes. They weren't designed to just charge blindly and headstrong into blobs of groups, in face they're weakest against blobs (especially fearless ones). You take out the elite parts of your opponents army with them and rely on your daemonettes and other troops to handle the smaller threats.

Except that in large part what you describe isn't what happens the FMCs get grounded and killed....Also Define TOp tables? I finished 10th at a GT with a Soul Grinder in my list....

Very few FMC players make top tables...those that do generally aren't nuking anything.

Now if the FMC player rolls everything he needs thats great. if he ends up with Meh powers....he gets murdered.

Breng77 wrote:
Except that in large part what you describe isn't what happens the FMCs get grounded and killed....Also Define TOp tables? I finished 10th at a GT with a Soul Grinder in my list....

Very few FMC players make top tables...those that do generally aren't nuking anything.

Now if the FMC player rolls everything he needs thats great. if he ends up with Meh powers....he gets murdered.

Haven't played in a GT in a very good while, I've won a few RT with my FMC daemon list and I can tell you that some of the matchups I've crushed are serpenttide lists, triple tide, grinder daemon lists, and necron air force. The only armies that have given me trouble were the old tyranid codex with shadows of the warp and dark eldar. My Flying Circus list crushes pretty much everything else.

And unless those RTT players are top GT players beating those lists does nto mean much. Now I don't really play local RTTs anymore (because I have become the TO), but when I did I won't all the time with lists that don't win at GTs so RTT experience is pretty meaningless on the grand scale.

FMC is a good build, but it has a lot of luck involved...and against top players that know how to deal with it it wins far less frequently.

RTT experience is also a bad sample set for saying certain units are good VS bad. I've Played FMC lists a bunch and rarely ever gotten crushed...you focus down their troops, and keep yours alive...and you win. Which is easier said than done, but FMC lists are just different than lists including grinders not inherently better.

Also, I'm going to add that grinders aren't moving at the same speed as daemonettes. If you're running a slaanesh grinder it goes at the same speed, the problem is that at that point you're paying 170 points-ish to have a walker not shooting trying to make it to combat with it's like 5 attacks... For the same price, you're getting 20 daemonettes which will almost surely make it to combat with your DP flying around.

Which is generally why you use them to shoot instead of rushing forward...and mark them with Nurgle. But even then, in the assault there are plenty of times an AV 13 walker with 5 attacks is way better than those 20 Daemonettes. Which should not really ever make it to combat because as your opponent I'll shoot them first because unless we play big guns your DPs don't score. It really does not take much to kill 20 Daemonettes.

Breng77 wrote:
Which is generally why you use them to shoot instead of rushing forward...and mark them with Nurgle. But even then, in the assault there are plenty of times an AV 13 walker with 5 attacks is way better than those 20 Daemonettes. Which should not really ever make it to combat because as your opponent I'll shoot them first because unless we play big guns your DPs don't score. It really does not take much to kill 20 Daemonettes.

You're just incorrect here, if they shoot your daemonettes then you just protected all of your mcs for 180 pts, if they didn't then the daemonettes are just going to shred everything including vehicles with armor 12. Also, running 3 blobs of daemonettes with a keeper, fateweaver and daemon princes is devastating.

Except you often just really don't and I just killed all your troops (not jsut the one blob very often with top shooty armies). OR split a little of both and stand in terrain to eat the Daemonette charge. Sorry Daemonettes are just not scarey and are extremely fragile.

SO assuming your keeper is fairly Naked at 2k points based on the list. He is an easy kill most times. But despite that. Lets just look at Daemonettes. It takes 67 Bolter shots to kill each squad assuming they are not buffed at all.

So Tau players bubble Wrap with stuff etc. let you get a token charge while eating overwatch...and then shoot you again.

It is not that your list is bad...its not but you seem to think it is 1.) the best way to play Daemons.
2.) The only way to play Daemons

Top lists at GTs beg to differ as no Daemon army with 60 troops have made top tables either.

Breng77 wrote:
Except you often just really don't and I just killed all your troops (not jsut the one blob very often with top shooty armies). OR split a little of both and stand in terrain to eat the Daemonette charge. Sorry Daemonettes are just not scarey and are extremely fragile.

SO assuming your keeper is fairly Naked at 2k points based on the list. He is an easy kill most times. But despite that. Lets just look at Daemonettes. It takes 67 Bolter shots to kill each squad assuming they are not buffed at all.

So Tau players bubble Wrap with stuff etc. let you get a token charge while eating overwatch...and then shoot you again.

It is not that your list is bad...its not but you seem to think it is 1.) the best way to play Daemons.
2.) The only way to play Daemons

Top lists at GTs beg to differ as no Daemon army with 60 troops have made top tables either.

This is also incorrect. A keeper with 2 greater rewards isn't squishy what-so-ever (most of the time) and I'm fine with daemonettes getting shot at all day, that just means the princes are rofl stomping. Also, against tau firwarrior lists I'm bringing fatey in with flickering fire on a 2++ rerollable. I think you need more experience with slaanesh daemons based on your comments sir.

So do your DPs not have 2 greater gifts each then because I'm not seeing how you have the points. That said even with 2 greater gifts the keeper is not that hardy in my experience, and Princes don't stomp that many things. Sorry I just rarely ever see that happen. Its a good army, but you seem to think it is the only way to play daemons...its not. 2++ re-roll is great until the grimoir dies...and he will be priority 1 if in range.

I'm not saying you cannot win, or don't just that top players can and will be able to deal with this list, it is a perfectly good Daemon list but your assertion that. Soul Grinders are bad because you don't use them in your particular build is blantantly false.

But it is obvious at this point that you believe you have an answer to every thing out there so there is no point in this discussion.

I've never made a list on here, so I'm unsure which list you're referencing...

Also, my statement was that soulgrinders as a competitive heavy slot are inferior to Daemon Princes.

Ok so you said that you run

Fateweaver
60 Daemonettes (or there abouts could be less)
Keeper
Dps (I assumed 3)

SO unless you have fewer Daemonettes, you cannot have everything kitted out fully at 2k points

SO maybe you don't have 3 full Daemonettes.

And yes, you said Soul Grinders are inferior...and I disagree. I think both have uses and spaming DPs is no better than a balanced approach. There are several things in the Meta that murder DPs easily that soul grinders are better against, and vice versa. There are times when rushing your opponent won't work and having Soul Grinders help. You base your entire statement off of limited sample of lists.

the FMC build is a strong one...but in a non-fmc build DPS are often not the best choice, because they are super expensive.

Essentially you need to commit to them for it to work. If you don't they are not great.

soul grinders have horrid bs and aren't making it to combat prior to turn 3, they're susceptible to a pot shot explosion and are sub par at anti air. slaanesh daemon princes on the other hand have a great chance at iron arm and fly thus their quicker and more durable. also, with iron arm they're firing 2d6 str 7-9 shots at bs 5. these guys are better heavy options than soul grinders in every way.

the biggest strength of daemons are their speed and threat factor. the people on here disagreeing with this are casuals and not tourney goers

I'm a tourney goer and I completely disagree with you.

Yes, Daemons rely on speed and threats, but they aren't necessarily an assault army. I'd actually characterize them (particularly FMC lists) as a movement army. Furthermore, Grinders are incredibly good. A Slaneesh Grinder is comparable to a Heldrake, especially because most enemy troops are rocking bad saves these days.

As to the OP, Daemonettes, Horrors, and Plaguebearers are all good choices. I'm currently running a big unit of 18 Daemonettes, 2x10 Plaguebearers, and 10 allied Cultists in my 1850 list. Daemonettes provide a nice threat, Plaguebearers take objectives (and can attack other small units). Horrors have decent shooting ability, but psychic shooting does have some additional hoops to jump through. Remember, Horrors also re-roll failed saves of "1", so they can go to ground for comparable durability to Plaguebearers (sometimes better).